Jump to content

Making Fp Ink From Cold-Water Soluble Dye



bobzoryuncle

Recommended Posts

 

When I was mixing my inks a few years ago; Dowicil 75 was the norm; prior to that, about 3 decades ago and before- Phenol was the norm.

 

 

Sean, did the Dowicil work for your inks?

 

I did find this about it:

 

Inks

DOWICIL 75 Preservative has been evaluated in sev­eral applications ranging from fountain pen ink to ink used for the printing of fabrics and fiber containers. Ink formulations typically require 0.2 - 0.27% by weight of DOWICIL 75 Preservative for adequate preservation. The required concentration is depen­dent on the formulation and the shelf life desired.

 

 

Thanks, Greg

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 58
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • thorn

    15

  • bobzoryuncle

    8

  • notgiven

    5

  • SamCapote

    5

bobzoryuncle

Some questions about what we've discussed so far:

(1) Fiber reactive dyes such as MX have a short shelf life once they're dissolved in water--a few weeks, but life can be extended with this DOWICIL 75? Other stuff?

(2) The mix would need some surfactant -- what brand have we decided on?

(3) The ink needs anti-fungal agent -- which one did we come up with?

(4) Distilled water?

 

Thanks--I'm learning a lot.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Some questions about what we've discussed so far:

(1) Fiber reactive dyes such as MX have a short shelf life once they're dissolved in water--a few weeks, but life can be extended with this DOWICIL 75? Other stuff?

(2) The mix would need some surfactant -- what brand have we decided on?

(3) The ink needs anti-fungal agent -- which one did we come up with?

(4) Distilled water?

 

Thanks--I'm learning a lot.

 

Where did you see the info on shelf life on the MX dyes?

 

Here's some surfactants that would work in ink (detergent will work in a pinch, only takes a very small amount):

nonionic surfactants

 

DOWICIL is an antimicrobial (fungus, molds, bacteria etc) agent.

 

DOWICIL link

 

DOWICIL 75 Preservative is currently providing excellent, cost-effective antimicrobial performance in a wide variety of applications.

 

I would think distilled water would be best. It depends how bad your water is (pH minerals etc).

Link to post
Share on other sites
bobzoryuncle

Here's a typical thread about MX's short shelf life: http://www.pburch.net/drupal/?q=node/459.

If it has a shelf life of only a week or two, one would have to mix up a 10 ml batches every fortnight. Not a terrible thing, but hardly ideal. I wonder if there's a better lasting agent?

Edited by bobzoryuncle
Link to post
Share on other sites

I made several inks using cellulose reactive dyes a few years ago. I used standard dyes (downstairs at the moment, so I can't tell you which ones, but they were cyan, magenta, and yellow plus black for mixing purposes), thriethanolamine, and automotive antifreeze as flow modifiers -- the triethanolamine is a diamino compound to enhance the reaction with cellulose.

 

I got the basic information from a patent for inkjet printable cellulose reactive dyes, which used 2-picoline as the reactor compound, and I've not managed to get any to see how it works. You could use glycerol (readily available at craft stores) as a subsitute for the ethylene glycol. The dye to cellulose bond forms very slowly without the reactant to speed it up, and I wanted an almost instant "setting" ink like Noodler's black.

 

I got reasonable water resistance -- takes a couple days for the dyes to set completely, which is too slow -- and decent writing performance for a first test. Got busy and didn't follow up beyond trying some diaminobenzene for the reactant. I do NOT recommend this, it's quite toxic and I used too much and it sublimes out of the line and turns brown, marking the next page or two. I wanted to try a diamino compound that was not basic. It worked better than triethanolamine, and I suppose I could just adjust the pH to neutral.

 

Peter

Edited by psfred
Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a typical thread about MX's short shelf life: http://www.pburch.net/drupal/?q=node/459.

If it has a shelf life of only a week or two, one would have to mix up a 10 ml batches every fortnight. Not a terrible thing, but hardly ideal. I wonder if there's a better lasting agent?

 

I wonder if there is another source for these reactive dyes that are much more stable?

Link to post
Share on other sites

I made several inks using cellulose reactive dyes a few years ago. I used standard dyes (downstairs at the moment, so I can't tell you which ones, but they were cyan, magenta, and yellow plus black for mixing purposes), thriethanolamine, and automotive antifreeze as flow modifiers -- the triethanolamine is a diamino compound to enhance the reaction with cellulose.

...

 

 

Interesting. I'd hate to mess with some of the toxic compounds...Must be a way without them.

 

Also, Wiki says:

 

2-picoline is a colorless liquid that has an unpleasant odor similar to pyridine.
Link to post
Share on other sites

 

When I was mixing my inks a few years ago; Dowicil 75 was the norm; prior to that, about 3 decades ago and before- Phenol was the norm.

 

 

Sean, did the Dowicil work for your inks?

 

I did find this about it:

 

Inks

DOWICIL 75 Preservative has been evaluated in sev­eral applications ranging from fountain pen ink to ink used for the printing of fabrics and fiber containers. Ink formulations typically require 0.2 - 0.27% by weight of DOWICIL 75 Preservative for adequate preservation. The required concentration is depen­dent on the formulation and the shelf life desired.

 

 

Thanks, Greg

 

Hello Greg,

 

YES. Dowicil 75 worked like a charm- I never lost a batch to mold or SITB. In fact, I only lost one batch- and that was a batch of Signal Red; which was lost due to dye disintegration; in basic terms, the dye breaks down and separates from the mix. Dye disintegration can happen with any ink; however, it is most common in reds and browns.

 

All the best,

 

Sean :)

Edited by S. P. Colfer

https://www.catholicscomehome.org/

 

"Every one therefore that shall confess Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father Who is in Heaven." - MT. 10:32

"Any society that will give up liberty to gain security deserves neither and will lose both." - Ben Franklin

Link to post
Share on other sites
Ink Stained Wretch

Wouldn't the salts remain in solution, even in the pen?

Not necessarily, and that wouldn't stop the salts from reacting with the pen parts.

 

Ring around the tub is an example of insoluble salts forming, and that sort of stuff in a fountain pen's tiny ink channel would be a real stopper.

On a sacred quest for the perfect blue ink mixture!

ink stained wretch filling inkwell

Link to post
Share on other sites

Many textile dyes have salts in them, which makes them unsuitable for pen inks. You would want to confirm what else is in the dye powder other than the dye before turning some in to ink.

 

 

Wouldn't the salts remain in solution, even in the pen?

 

Even if they do, they can cause serious corrosion, unless you have solid gold nibs. Even stainless steel will corrode in contact with salt water.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

YES. Dowicil 75 worked like a charm- I never lost a batch to mold or SITB. In fact, I only lost one batch- and that was a batch of Signal Red; which was lost due to dye disintegration; in basic terms, the dye breaks down and separates from the mix. Dye disintegration can happen with any ink; however, it is most common in reds and browns.

 

Hi Sean,

I would guess by oxidation or reduction, the dyes break down into insoluble compounds that precipitate out. I wonder if there is something to add to slow it down?

 

Greg

Link to post
Share on other sites

Many textile dyes have salts in them, which makes them unsuitable for pen inks. You would want to confirm what else is in the dye powder other than the dye before turning some in to ink.

 

 

Wouldn't the salts remain in solution, even in the pen?

 

Even if they do, they can cause serious corrosion, unless you have solid gold nibs. Even stainless steel will corrode in contact with salt water.

 

 

True, I would guess that some of the dyes have salt like properties also.

Link to post
Share on other sites

There are liquid celluose reactive dyes, often referred to as silk dyes for some reason, that are stable in water solution. They are more expensive, but that should not be a problem for making ink since you won't be using that much.

 

The trick that Nathan has found (and I have not, so far) is to find dyes that bind to the cellulose quite rapidly at room temperature rather than taking a couple hours at near boiling in salted water.

 

The salt enhances the absorbtion of the dyes, and is more commonly used with acid dyes to force the dye into the fiber. It would not be required in fountain pen ink since one it not attempting to move dye from a large excess of water into fiber suspended in it.

 

Peter

Link to post
Share on other sites

There are liquid celluose reactive dyes, often referred to as silk dyes for some reason, that are stable in water solution. They are more expensive, but that should not be a problem for making ink since you won't be using that much.

 

The trick that Nathan has found (and I have not, so far) is to find dyes that bind to the cellulose quite rapidly at room temperature rather than taking a couple hours at near boiling in salted water.

 

The salt enhances the absorbtion of the dyes, and is more commonly used with acid dyes to force the dye into the fiber. It would not be required in fountain pen ink since one it not attempting to move dye from a large excess of water into fiber suspended in it.

 

Peter

 

 

 

Maybe something like this:

 

Dichlorotriazine reactive dyes

 

High reactive and require milder conditions in dye fixation. They are primarily of interest in dyeing at normal room temperature at around 25-30°C using soda ash or sodium bicarbonate.

 

see link.

 

 

 

OR:

 

 

Reactive ME Dyes

We offer reactive ME dyes that are low temperature, high exhaust dyes with higher grade of all round fastening properties like perspiration and light chlorine. Another advantage of these dyes are their high degree of exhaustion and fixation rates, better alkali stability and leveling properties. As these dyes react with cellulosic fibers at low temperature and also the cold - batch method, these dyes are real energy saving dyes.

 

 

See link

Edited by thorn
Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe this stuff might work as an FP ink because it is water soluble at colder/room temps, and is cellulose-reactive like the famous Noodler's inks. It seems to be bloomin' cheap too...

 

Of course this works, at least to some degree. Noodler's Ink in built around this premise.

 

I'd disagree that it would be "bloomin' cheap", since you'd:

1.) Have to buy considerable volume of chemicals

2.) Experiment for a considerable amount of time before you got a viable ink

 

If you really need waterproof, coloured fountain pen ink, just buy one of the myriad shades offered by Noodler's.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The was a project at one time to create an open source ink, but shut down several years ago, it would be interesting to restart such a project.

 

Yeah, we kicked this around in the beginning of the FPN, shortly after Noodler's Ink went commercial. The "cool" factor never overcame the hassle and cost.

Link to post
Share on other sites
SamCapote

When I was mixing my inks a few years ago; Dowicil 75 was the norm; prior to that, about 3 decades ago and before- Phenol was the norm.

 

 

Sean, did the Dowicil work for your inks?

 

I did find this about it:

 

Inks

DOWICIL 75 Preservative has been evaluated in sev­eral applications ranging from fountain pen ink to ink used for the printing of fabrics and fiber containers. Ink formulations typically require 0.2 - 0.27% by weight of DOWICIL 75 Preservative for adequate preservation. The required concentration is depen­dent on the formulation and the shelf life desired.

 

 

Thanks, Greg

 

Hello Greg,

 

YES. Dowicil 75 worked like a charm- I never lost a batch to mold or SITB. In fact, I only lost one batch- and that was a batch of Signal Red; which was lost due to dye disintegration; in basic terms, the dye breaks down and separates from the mix. Dye disintegration can happen with any ink; however, it is most common in reds and browns.

 

All the best,

 

Sean :)

 

Before you get too excited about using Dowicil 75, you may wish to read the warnings/MSDS handling/mixing, and talk to Dow Microbial Control division. Dow will only sell it in 100 pound drums, and to state registered companies, not individuals or DBA businesses. Same goes for trying to obtain samples in smaller quantities. They require certification, especially with all the Homeland Security monitoring and tracking of chemicals. If you consider using the 4% Phenol solution sold by Natural Pigments, pH plays an important factor...specifically keeping it below 8.0. With all due respect to the esteemed Giovani Abrate of Tryphon's, their "SterilInk" does not work.

 

I also thought and did some preliminary checking on those cold or hot water dyes, including RIT. I ruled it out after having a number of conversations with several technical advisors, chemical engineers, and two ink makers for a number of reasons. Like you, it seemed like a fun idea starting out....but if you do your due diligence, there is quite a bit involved in doing it right.

With the new FPN rules, now I REALLY don't know what to put in my signature.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Before you get too excited about using Dowicil 75, you may wish to read the warnings/MSDS handling/mixing, and talk to Dow Microbial Control division. Dow will only sell it in 100 pound drums, and to state registered companies, not individuals or DBA businesses. Same goes for trying to obtain samples in smaller quantities. They require certification, especially with all the Homeland Security monitoring and tracking of chemicals. If you consider using the 4% Phenol solution sold by Natural Pigments, pH plays an important factor...specifically keeping it below 8.0. With all due respect to the esteemed Giovani Abrate of Tryphon's, their "SterilInk" does not work.

 

When Sean mentioned Dowicil 75, I searched about it for a bit, and eBay have it :blink: .

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300489752816 (no afflicted in anyway)

 

62 pounds for $225 + $59 shipping. Even with shipping, it turns out to be $4.4 per pound, much cheaper than I anticipated. I messaged the seller and offered $14 for one pound, but the seller prefer to sell at a higher volume. 62 pounds is too much for any hobbyist, but if we could get 30 people, we can split it easily. Anyone up for it?

 

I'm fascinated by ink, and I want to at least try making it once.

Fountain Pen Travel/display Case out of stock now. Found new materials. People in the wait list will be contacted, slowly. Thank you!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Before you get too excited about using Dowicil 75, you may wish to read the warnings/MSDS handling/mixing, and talk to Dow Microbial Control division. Dow will only sell it in 100 pound drums, and to state registered companies, not individuals or DBA businesses. Same goes for trying to obtain samples in smaller quantities. They require certification, especially with all the Homeland Security monitoring and tracking of chemicals. If you consider using the 4% Phenol solution sold by Natural Pigments, pH plays an important factor...specifically keeping it below 8.0. With all due respect to the esteemed Giovani Abrate of Tryphon's, their "SterilInk" does not work.

 

When Sean mentioned Dowicil 75, I searched about it for a bit, and eBay have it :blink: .

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300489752816 (no afflicted in anyway)

 

62 pounds for $225 + $59 shipping. Even with shipping, it turns out to be $4.4 per pound, much cheaper than I anticipated. I messaged the seller and offered $14 for one pound, but the seller prefer to sell at a higher volume. 62 pounds is too much for any hobbyist, but if we could get 30 people, we can split it easily. Anyone up for it?

 

I'm fascinated by ink, and I want to at least try making it once.

 

 

I wonder how old is it? Is there a shelf life?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Before you get too excited about using Dowicil 75, you may wish to read the warnings/MSDS handling/mixing, and talk to Dow Microbial Control division. Dow will only sell it in 100 pound drums, and to state registered companies, not individuals or DBA businesses. Same goes for trying to obtain samples in smaller quantities. They require certification, especially with all the Homeland Security monitoring and tracking of chemicals. If you consider using the 4% Phenol solution sold by Natural Pigments, pH plays an important factor...specifically keeping it below 8.0. With all due respect to the esteemed Giovani Abrate of Tryphon's, their "SterilInk" does not work.

 

When Sean mentioned Dowicil 75, I searched about it for a bit, and eBay have it :blink: .

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300489752816 (no afflicted in anyway)

 

62 pounds for $225 + $59 shipping. Even with shipping, it turns out to be $4.4 per pound, much cheaper than I anticipated. I messaged the seller and offered $14 for one pound, but the seller prefer to sell at a higher volume. 62 pounds is too much for any hobbyist, but if we could get 30 people, we can split it easily. Anyone up for it?

 

I'm fascinated by ink, and I want to at least try making it once.

 

 

I wonder how old is it? Is there a shelf life?

 

I would expect the shelf life to be long, very long, decades. It is a preservative after all. Ink with this preservative last a long time, so I expect this dry stuff alone will last much longer.

Fountain Pen Travel/display Case out of stock now. Found new materials. People in the wait list will be contacted, slowly. Thank you!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now







×
×
  • Create New...