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I'm no expert, but I don't think the dyes in the ink are fully dissolved in the water, just suspended.

 

If this is true, than sediment must occur over time, and shaking or stirring is simply re-suspending the dye.

 

Am I wrong? Is the dye actually dissolved in the liquid? (Even if it is, it probably would still settle eventually, though.)

Fountain pens ~ a stream of consciousness flowing effortless onto paper.

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Some of my Noodler's inks separate in the pen, but a shake or two fixes it and I never have any problems starting or skipping, just an off colour if I don't shake it at first. I am not refering to sediment forming in the pen, just "dye separation".

Gobblecup ~

 

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Great discussion, lots of good ideas and some very logical reasoning both ways. I really like the suggestion to visually check the ink before shaking -- makes sense now that I think about it.

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I'm no expert, but I don't think the dyes in the ink are fully dissolved in the water, just suspended.

 

If this is true, than sediment must occur over time, and shaking or stirring is simply re-suspending the dye.

 

Am I wrong? Is the dye actually dissolved in the liquid? (Even if it is, it probably would still settle eventually, though.)

 

River, this is actually a point of contention between certain members, that has been discussed in detail previously.

 

The gist of their argument is that a "truly dissolved" dye solution (such as saltwater) will never precipitate out and form a sediment, and would never block a horizontal typical laser pointer beam when shone (from outside and) through a a diluted beaker of that ink. Their theory continues that if the beam scatters or is blocked, then you must be dealing with a pigment supension, and the ink containing pigments (small solid color particles) not dissolved into an actual solution is harmful to fountain pens, and should be avoided. More recently, the people making this argument have granted an exception for the Sailor & Platinum "Nano-pigmented" black, red, and blue inks, since those (nano) pigments are so ultra-small, they theoretically should not clog a pen feed.

 

The fallacy of that argument is that they are not including the categories of supersaturation, supra-molecular chemistry, and types of very weak (noncovalent) bonds that can more easily lead to sedimentation of actual dye without pigments being involved. Typically, pigmented inks are used with dip pens only, and often exist in thicker liquids. Some dip inks even use non-aqueous based vehicles--think of the extremes of acrylic/latex paint & oil paints.

Edited by SamCapote

With the new FPN rules, now I REALLY don't know what to put in my signature.

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Ok. Thanks, SamCapote.

 

The waterproof Noodler's inks that I use certainly creates a sludgy sedimenty film on the side of my converter.

 

Any ideas how to deal with that?

Fountain pens ~ a stream of consciousness flowing effortless onto paper.

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I'm a shaker--physically not religiously. No problems over the decades.

http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/7260/postminipo0.png http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/8703/letterminizk9.png When one is too old for love, one finds great comfort in good dinners. Zora Neale Hurston
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I prefer to swirl rather than shake my ink bottles. I have seen a difference in the saturation of some inks by doing this, getting only a watery version of the ink if I don't first swirl the bottle. This has worked well for me so far.

~ Manisha

 

"A traveller am I and a navigator, and everyday I discover a new region of my soul." ~ Kahlil Gibran

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....shaken...not stirred...with a twist.... Thank you very much.

 

Are you saying you like your ink dry? Or with a vodka based ink? :roflmho:

Fountain pens ~ a stream of consciousness flowing effortless onto paper.

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I'm no expert, but I don't think the dyes in the ink are fully dissolved in the water, just suspended.

 

If this is true, than sediment must occur over time, and shaking or stirring is simply re-suspending the dye.

 

Am I wrong? Is the dye actually dissolved in the liquid? (Even if it is, it probably would still settle eventually, though.)

 

River, this is actually a point of contention between certain members, that has been discussed in detail previously.

 

The gist of their argument is that a "truly dissolved" dye solution (such as saltwater) will never precipitate out and form a sediment, and would never block a horizontal typical laser pointer beam when shone (from outside and) through a a diluted beaker of that ink. Their theory continues that if the beam scatters or is blocked, then you must be dealing with a pigment supension, and the ink containing pigments (small solid color particles) not dissolved into an actual solution is harmful to fountain pens, and should be avoided. More recently, the people making this argument have granted an exception for the Sailor & Platinum "Nano-pigmented" black, red, and blue inks, since those (nano) pigments are so ultra-small, they theoretically should not clog a pen feed.

 

The fallacy of that argument is that they are not including the categories of supersaturation, supra-molecular chemistry, and types of very weak (noncovalent) bonds that can more easily lead to sedimentation of actual dye without pigments being involved. Typically, pigmented inks are used with dip pens only, and often exist in thicker liquids. Some dip inks even use non-aqueous based vehicles--think of the extremes of acrylic/latex paint & oil paints.

 

One of the reasons that I thought it was a suspension is that when I clean my pen and dip the nib in a cup of clean water, I see thin swirls of ink with particle in them, not homogeneous.

 

This is especially distinct of my Noodler's ink. Less so of Waterman black.

Fountain pens ~ a stream of consciousness flowing effortless onto paper.

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I'm no expert, but I don't think the dyes in the ink are fully dissolved in the water, just suspended.

 

If this is true, than sediment must occur over time, and shaking or stirring is simply re-suspending the dye.

 

Am I wrong? Is the dye actually dissolved in the liquid? (Even if it is, it probably would still settle eventually, though.)

 

River, this is actually a point of contention between certain members, that has been discussed in detail previously.

 

The gist of their argument is that a "truly dissolved" dye solution (such as saltwater) will never precipitate out and form a sediment, and would never block a horizontal typical laser pointer beam when shone (from outside and) through a a diluted beaker of that ink. Their theory continues that if the beam scatters or is blocked, then you must be dealing with a pigment supension, and the ink containing pigments (small solid color particles) not dissolved into an actual solution is harmful to fountain pens, and should be avoided. More recently, the people making this argument have granted an exception for the Sailor & Platinum "Nano-pigmented" black, red, and blue inks, since those (nano) pigments are so ultra-small, they theoretically should not clog a pen feed.

 

The fallacy of that argument is that they are not including the categories of supersaturation, supra-molecular chemistry, and types of very weak (noncovalent) bonds that can more easily lead to sedimentation of actual dye without pigments being involved. Typically, pigmented inks are used with dip pens only, and often exist in thicker liquids. Some dip inks even use non-aqueous based vehicles--think of the extremes of acrylic/latex paint & oil paints.

 

One of the reasons that I thought it was a suspension is that when I clean my pen and dip the nib in a cup of clean water, I see thin swirls of ink with particle in them, not homogeneous.

 

This is especially distinct of my Noodler's ink. Less so of Waterman black.

 

Yes, I understand. For the record, I have never said that I know what any ink maker uses in all their inks. I have been told personally by Nathan that he uses only dyes (& not pigments), and have found him to be an honorable and trustworthy man. This general discussion is really not about Noodler's in particular, however...and I don't want the discussion to "go there," same with the Moderators.

 

As a simplistic answer to your observation, the solution used in an original ink has a variety of components beyond just water necessary to form the solution. Without the other original components, I don't know how an ink might behave if a nib or a drop was mixed in water. There is also a wide variety of tap water impurities, contaminations, and chemical/pH variations that can interact with ink components in ways that distilled water would not. I'm not defending any particular ink, just bringing up other possible explanations.

 

To answer your previous posted question about a "sludgy sediment" on the side of your pens, which I have seen with a number of inks...I take note of that behavior, wipe it off with a tissue, and make a decision if I want to continue using the ink in the particular pen going forward, or at all in any pens on a case-by-case basis.

 

Some inks have faster liquid evaporation (this is a "seat of my pants" observation mainly with converter inspection) than others--which in part is related to how good of a pen cap seal is made. When the liquid evaporates, you are going to have more concentation of the remaining ink components, especially on the most exposed edge such as the nib and feed. That may be a time to refill/drain in original ink supply several times which has resolved it for me, or just empty and clean the pen. You must decide.

 

I will say that there are many inks that I would NEVER put in a vintage pen, or pen costing more than $100. I am also much less interested in putting highly saturated inks in pens that have sacs, bladders, or internal piston chambers because it takes so long to clean them. Instead, I tend to use them in converters, and have found that those nib/feeds can be flushed quickly, especially with a rubber bulb syringe. I really don't care what I put in a $10-15 pen, and I have had a dedicated $15 blue Pelikan Pelikano continuously filled for almost 3 years with the most "colorful" of Noodler's "menagerie," namely Bay State Blue. I have yet to have any problems with it.

 

Here is the nearly absolute rule if you want the benefits of using a highly saturated ink: These are higher maintenance inks, so you must be more careful and aggressive in watching, using, refilling, flushing, and cleaning pens with such inks.

 

Having said that, some people (Sandy1) have successfully diluted original highly concentrated, highly saturated inks with water, and still get wonderful results.

Edited by SamCapote

With the new FPN rules, now I REALLY don't know what to put in my signature.

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Okay.

 

Thanks.

 

(By the way, the sludge is inside the converter.)

 

And, is it safe to use Indian ink pen cleaner in a fountain pen?

 

Someone recommended that on FPN.

Fountain pens ~ a stream of consciousness flowing effortless onto paper.

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....shaken...not stirred...with a twist.... Thank you very much.

 

Are you saying you like your ink dry? Or with a vodka based ink? :roflmho:

 

Nuts....Flemming, or any real gentleman, would never go for shaken, it was of course stirred from his pen....the producers / screen-writers took some (inappropriate) artistic license in "shaken - not stirred"

 

And a _twist_ ???? FPNers are severely disappointing me.

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(By the way, the sludge is inside the converter.)

 

That is of more concern. I would pull and flush the converter. You don't want something that appears like sludge to be going through the narrow feed. Of course, I don't really know what you mean by sludge in the converter.

 

And, is it safe to use Indian ink pen cleaner in a fountain pen?

 

Someone recommended that on FPN.

 

In general, I would say no because many India Inks have shellac in them to preserve the ink, and a cleaner would need to dissolve that....but we would need to know exactly what cleaner/India Ink you are talking about, since there are non-shellac versions. If it is Koh-I-Noor Rapido Eze pen cleaner, then I would say yes, but that is not advertised specifically as an India ink cleaner.

With the new FPN rules, now I REALLY don't know what to put in my signature.

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Okay.

 

Thanks.

 

(By the way, the sludge is inside the converter.)

 

And, is it safe to use Indian ink pen cleaner in a fountain pen?

 

Someone recommended that on FPN.

 

The only time I've seen that is in a pen that sat neglected for some time and filled with I think a brown or black ink. I blamed it solely on my poor maintenance. It was a Pelikan so I was able to clean it easily. With a converter you might need to get one of those tiny little gum brushes - they are very soft and gentle and work great for cleaning out the inside of most converters (some of the necks on some converters are too narrow).

 

otherwise it might take a good soak in an ultra-sonic cleaner.

KCat
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Okay.

 

Thanks.

 

(By the way, the sludge is inside the converter.)

 

And, is it safe to use Indian ink pen cleaner in a fountain pen?

 

Someone recommended that on FPN.

 

The only time I've seen that is in a pen that sat neglected for some time and filled with I think a brown or black ink. I blamed it solely on my poor maintenance. It was a Pelikan so I was able to clean it easily. With a converter you might need to get one of those tiny little gum brushes - they are very soft and gentle and work great for cleaning out the inside of most converters (some of the necks on some converters are too narrow).

 

otherwise it might take a good soak in an ultra-sonic cleaner.

 

In the past, when I used Waterman and PR inks, if I held the pen up to check the ink level, there was a nice, clean, clear upper section of converter with no ink in it. This little bubble of no ink moved freely depending on the angle I held the pen, and left no residue on the side of the converter.

 

I just started using Noodler's bulletproof inks, but they seem to coat the side of the converter. This makes it hard to check the ink level. It also seems to clog the pen.

 

I had Noodler's Eternal Brown in a Noodler's flex pen (clear) and the ink dried up inside the feed. (At least it is easily disassembled and cleaned.)

 

All of these pens were inked recently, and are in regular use.

 

It is one thing to disassemble and clean an inexpensive Noodler's flex, but I don't want to start disassembling my other pens. On the other hand, I like using waterproof ink.

Fountain pens ~ a stream of consciousness flowing effortless onto paper.

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Okay.

 

Thanks.

 

(By the way, the sludge is inside the converter.)

 

And, is it safe to use Indian ink pen cleaner in a fountain pen?

 

Someone recommended that on FPN.

 

The only time I've seen that is in a pen that sat neglected for some time and filled with I think a brown or black ink. I blamed it solely on my poor maintenance. It was a Pelikan so I was able to clean it easily. With a converter you might need to get one of those tiny little gum brushes - they are very soft and gentle and work great for cleaning out the inside of most converters (some of the necks on some converters are too narrow).

 

otherwise it might take a good soak in an ultra-sonic cleaner.

 

In the past, when I used Waterman and PR inks, if I held the pen up to check the ink level, there was a nice, clean, clear upper section of converter with no ink in it. This little bubble of no ink moved freely depending on the angle I held the pen, and left no residue on the side of the converter.

 

I just started using Noodler's bulletproof inks, but they seem to coat the side of the converter. This makes it hard to check the ink level. It also seems to clog the pen.

 

I had Noodler's Eternal Brown in a Noodler's flex pen (clear) and the ink dried up inside the feed. (At least it is easily disassembled and cleaned.)

 

All of these pens were inked recently, and are in regular use.

 

It is one thing to disassemble and clean an inexpensive Noodler's flex, but I don't want to start disassembling my other pens. On the other hand, I like using waterproof ink.

 

River, it seems you are determined to only discuss problems specifically with Noodler's inks, which in the past have led to moderators needing to step in. Your posts have progressed from initial questions to having Noodlers specifically causing sludge, clogging your pen, and now drying up inside the pen despite "being inked recently and in regular use." Why didn't you just start out laying all your cards on the table so we know what is really on your mind?

 

I have used many (at least 15-20) of the Noodler's eternal, bulletproof, & waterproof inks. I will only use them in pens that are either eyedroppers that came with the bottle (ie 4.5 oz Kung te- Cheng), Noodler's pens, Dollar Pens, or a reasonably priced converter style pens once I have a better handle on the characteristics, such as a Lamy Safari, Pelikano, TWSBI, Levenger True Writer, Waterman Phileas etc.

 

To date, I have never had a sludge develop in a converter...never mind a pen that I "inked recently and in regular use." I have let some of these pens sit untouched for as long as 4-6 days, on rare occasion for 7-10 days, and never had these problems...so something is not making sense.

 

There is no question (as I said earlier) that eternal/permanent/waterproof/highly saturated inks (made by Noodlers, Diamine, PR, Pilot, Sailor, & others) require more maintenance, and should not be compared to less saturated Watermans, Sheaffer Skrip, or Mont Blanc inks.

 

You are taking this topic about shaking or not shaking an ink into entirely other directions. If you have let your inks completely dry out in a pen that was recently filled and used regularly, there is something beyond a question of ink shaking going on :hmm1:.

With the new FPN rules, now I REALLY don't know what to put in my signature.

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Okay.

 

Thanks.

 

(By the way, the sludge is inside the converter.)

 

And, is it safe to use Indian ink pen cleaner in a fountain pen?

 

Someone recommended that on FPN.

 

The only time I've seen that is in a pen that sat neglected for some time and filled with I think a brown or black ink. I blamed it solely on my poor maintenance. It was a Pelikan so I was able to clean it easily. With a converter you might need to get one of those tiny little gum brushes - they are very soft and gentle and work great for cleaning out the inside of most converters (some of the necks on some converters are too narrow).

 

otherwise it might take a good soak in an ultra-sonic cleaner.

 

In the past, when I used Waterman and PR inks, if I held the pen up to check the ink level, there was a nice, clean, clear upper section of converter with no ink in it. This little bubble of no ink moved freely depending on the angle I held the pen, and left no residue on the side of the converter.

 

I just started using Noodler's bulletproof inks, but they seem to coat the side of the converter. This makes it hard to check the ink level. It also seems to clog the pen.

 

I had Noodler's Eternal Brown in a Noodler's flex pen (clear) and the ink dried up inside the feed. (At least it is easily disassembled and cleaned.)

 

All of these pens were inked recently, and are in regular use.

 

It is one thing to disassemble and clean an inexpensive Noodler's flex, but I don't want to start disassembling my other pens. On the other hand, I like using waterproof ink.

 

River, it seems you are determined to only discuss problems specifically with Noodler's inks, which in the past have led to moderators needing to step in. Your posts have progressed from initial questions to having Noodlers specifically causing sludge, clogging your pen, and now drying up inside the pen despite "being inked recently and in regular use." Why didn't you just start out laying all your cards on the table so we know what is really on your mind?

 

I have used many (at least 15-20) of the Noodler's eternal, bulletproof, & waterproof inks. I will only use them in pens that are either eyedroppers that came with the bottle (ie 4.5 oz Kung te- Cheng), Noodler's pens, Dollar Pens, or a reasonably priced converter style pens once I have a better handle on the characteristics, such as a Lamy Safari, Pelikano, TWSBI, Levenger True Writer, Waterman Phileas etc.

 

To date, I have never had a sludge develop in a converter...never mind a pen that I "inked recently and in regular use." I have let some of these pens sit untouched for as long as 4-6 days, on rare occasion for 7-10 days, and never had these problems...so something is not making sense.

 

There is no question (as I said earlier) that eternal/permanent/waterproof/highly saturated inks (made by Noodlers, Diamine, PR, Pilot, Sailor, & others) require more maintenance, and should not be compared to less saturated Watermans, Sheaffer Skrip, or Mont Blanc inks.

 

You are taking this topic about shaking or not shaking an ink into entirely other directions. If you have let your inks completely dry out in a pen that was recently filled and used regularly, there is something beyond a question of ink shaking going on :hmm1:.

 

Sorry. I'm not trying to derail the discussion (although I realize this is getting off topic). I also am not trying to start up with Noodler's Ink. I recently discovered them, and right now that is all that I am using. I guess they are just higher maintenance, as you say, than the inks I used previously.

 

I'm only asking, because I was really excited to find truly waterproof fountain pen ink, but I am having a little bit of trouble with it. I want to know if what I am experiencing is normal, or if I am doing something wrong.

 

Maybe I should call the sludge "a thin coating on the side of the converter."

Fountain pens ~ a stream of consciousness flowing effortless onto paper.

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Okay.

 

Thanks.

 

(By the way, the sludge is inside the converter.)

 

And, is it safe to use Indian ink pen cleaner in a fountain pen?

 

Someone recommended that on FPN.

 

The only time I've seen that is in a pen that sat neglected for some time and filled with I think a brown or black ink. I blamed it solely on my poor maintenance. It was a Pelikan so I was able to clean it easily. With a converter you might need to get one of those tiny little gum brushes - they are very soft and gentle and work great for cleaning out the inside of most converters (some of the necks on some converters are too narrow).

 

otherwise it might take a good soak in an ultra-sonic cleaner.

 

In the past, when I used Waterman and PR inks, if I held the pen up to check the ink level, there was a nice, clean, clear upper section of converter with no ink in it. This little bubble of no ink moved freely depending on the angle I held the pen, and left no residue on the side of the converter.

 

I just started using Noodler's bulletproof inks, but they seem to coat the side of the converter. This makes it hard to check the ink level. It also seems to clog the pen.

 

I had Noodler's Eternal Brown in a Noodler's flex pen (clear) and the ink dried up inside the feed. (At least it is easily disassembled and cleaned.)

 

All of these pens were inked recently, and are in regular use.

 

It is one thing to disassemble and clean an inexpensive Noodler's flex, but I don't want to start disassembling my other pens. On the other hand, I like using waterproof ink.

 

River, it seems you are determined to only discuss problems specifically with Noodler's inks, which in the past have led to moderators needing to step in. Your posts have progressed from initial questions to having Noodlers specifically causing sludge, clogging your pen, and now drying up inside the pen despite "being inked recently and in regular use." Why didn't you just start out laying all your cards on the table so we know what is really on your mind?

 

I have used many (at least 15-20) of the Noodler's eternal, bulletproof, & waterproof inks. I will only use them in pens that are either eyedroppers that came with the bottle (ie 4.5 oz Kung te- Cheng), Noodler's pens, Dollar Pens, or a reasonably priced converter style pens once I have a better handle on the characteristics, such as a Lamy Safari, Pelikano, TWSBI, Levenger True Writer, Waterman Phileas etc.

 

To date, I have never had a sludge develop in a converter...never mind a pen that I "inked recently and in regular use." I have let some of these pens sit untouched for as long as 4-6 days, on rare occasion for 7-10 days, and never had these problems...so something is not making sense.

 

There is no question (as I said earlier) that eternal/permanent/waterproof/highly saturated inks (made by Noodlers, Diamine, PR, Pilot, Sailor, & others) require more maintenance, and should not be compared to less saturated Watermans, Sheaffer Skrip, or Mont Blanc inks.

 

You are taking this topic about shaking or not shaking an ink into entirely other directions. If you have let your inks completely dry out in a pen that was recently filled and used regularly, there is something beyond a question of ink shaking going on :hmm1:.

 

Sorry. I'm not trying to derail the discussion (although I realize this is getting off topic). I also am not trying to start up with Noodler's Ink. I recently discovered them, and right now that is all that I am using. I guess they are just higher maintenance, as you say, than the inks I used previously.

 

I'm only asking, because I was really excited to find truly waterproof fountain pen ink, but I am having a little bit of trouble with it. I want to know if what I am experiencing is normal, or if I am doing something wrong.

 

Maybe I should call the sludge "a thin coating on the side of the converter."

 

Thanks for clarifying.

 

A thin coating would be more typical of a number of the highly saturated inks, and especially of permanent/bulletproof/waterproof. There can be staining of the plastic of clear converter windows, as well as some of the plastics/barrels of pens. You can read about one of my early posts here where I had almost immediate staining of my Yellow Lamy by a certain blue ink from the Commonwealth of Massacheusetts. A coating, or ink adhering to a converter by a number of these inks is normal for these inks, but not normal for brands like Waterman, MontBlanc, etc., which is one of the reasons you should be selective on the pen used (I won't use them in expensive or vintage pens). You may need to hold the barrel up to a light to see the volume in the converter. There are times that people want to use these inks (separate from the issue of shaking or sedimentation), and they need to understand the extra steps to take.

 

It is never normal to have an actual sludge (or sediment) in a pen that was recently filled and in regular use, unless you define those terms differently. The worst thing you have to be aware of is a fungal infection developing, but I have not heard of that in most quality inks that use effective biocides (including Noodlers). Obviously, it is never normal, or a good thing to allow an ink to completely dry inside of a pen, but even in those instances where it is the user's negligence, you can almost always bring the pen back to normal working order with long term soaking and/or ultrasonic baths. This is one of the reasons I mentioned using Koh-I-Noor's Rapido Eze pen cleaner.

 

You don't need to be afraid of using waterproof/permanent fountain pen inks, but you do need to be aware of their increased maintenance and greater tendency to stain. Good Luck! :thumbup:

With the new FPN rules, now I REALLY don't know what to put in my signature.

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One thing you can try is a bit of dilution of the ink that concerns you. Yes, these are notoriously saturated inks. Diluting the bulletproof inks does not in anyway damage their waterproof quality. Less of the ink particles that bind will be laid on the page, but depending on the color and the nib width/flow, in all likelihood you'll notice no difference at all. But you may have slightly less film in the converter.

 

I'm not talking about a big dilution. Play with it perhaps. Start out with something like 1:5 water to ink and see if the color still suits and the ink behavior is still as you would like then check the signs of saturation that are troubling you. With WP black for example, I would imagine that for most users that are not drawing but simply want a good waterproof ink for writing, you could get away with a 1:3 water to ink it is that dark. if you're drawing and need a really fine dark line - probably less so.

 

just a thought. May or may not alleviate any issues.

KCat
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My personal blog https://kcdockalscribbling.com

My nature blog https://kcbeachscribbles.com
Venerable are letters, infinitely brave, forlorn, and lost. V. Woolf, Jacob's Room

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