"bunch Of Blues" Part One

[psfred]

Sam:

 

Your latest scan looks much better, but looks desaturated to me. Baystate Blue is that amazing "Sharpie Blue" color I've never seen in another ink, and on my monitor the last scan is color accurate, but not as saturated as I would expect.

 

If you have a "Hue and Saturation" control in PhotoPaint, try raising the saturation by 10 or so and see what you get. I find that many, many scans require this for some reason. I'm not sure how one does this in Vuescan -- one of the color controls, I'll have to go fish around and see.

 

Naturally, I don't really expect a perfect match on my monitor -- too many variable between systems, calibrations, and monitor types (I have a flat panel now, which is markedly different than a CRT).

 

The IT8 target calibration will probably take care of that.

 

Good luck!

[SamCapote]

I dont see the issue. I love Noodlers bulletproofs. I use them.

 

Going back to your blues comparison, what's the most baystate-like blue you know?. I'd love to find a vivid, well behaved blue ink to use everyday.

 

I don't think anyone has found a replacement, after I do the rest of the blues, I can see and show what is the closest. Some have said Private Reserve DC Supershow Blue is the closest.

[SamCapote]

Sam:

 

Your latest scan looks much better, but looks desaturated to me. Baystate Blue is that amazing "Sharpie Blue" color I've never seen in another ink, and on my monitor the last scan is color accurate, but not as saturated as I would expect.

 

If you have a "Hue and Saturation" control in PhotoPaint, try raising the saturation by 10 or so and see what you get. I find that many, many scans require this for some reason. I'm not sure how one does this in Vuescan -- one of the color controls, I'll have to go fish around and see.

 

Naturally, I don't really expect a perfect match on my monitor -- too many variable between systems, calibrations, and monitor types (I have a flat panel now, which is markedly different than a CRT).

 

The IT8 target calibration will probably take care of that.

 

Good luck!

 

I took the last VueScan (default) image which was "Blues 8" and in Jasc Paintshop, there are most of the adjustments seen in Photoshop, and I just increased the saturation by 10. While it definitely makes the blues more realistic, I noticed it started washing out the Platinum Black at bottom that was in cartridges that came with my 3776 Platinum Music nib pen (I don't think it is their nanopigmented black, but original is definitely black. Maybe you could also download the original JPG to see what settings work best from: http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h75/pike444/Inks/Blue8.jpg

 

Below, I have thumbnails of original VueScan (default) Blue8 on left, and Blue9 on right where I increased ONLY the Saturation by 10.

 

 

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h75/pike444/Inks/Blue8s.jpg http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h75/pike444/Inks/Blue9s.jpg

[SamCapote]

To try and see the changes easier, I cropped a middle column of Blue8 and pasted it as a new layer on Blue9 (with it's 10 Saturation), making slightly askew so you can see the edges of the column. Thanks again for your help with this. Once I see how you apply your mastery, I can use that going forward. Not sure how long it takes for the IT8 to come from Wolf Faust. I ordered R1 & RF on 12/12/10.

 

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h75/pike444/Inks/Blue8on9s.jpg

[psfred]

Here are some adjustments in Photoshop:

 

 

First file is an autocontrast adjustment.

 

Secondd file is a manual levels adjustment, where the black point it trimmed to the lowest level of valid color data, clipping the long single pixel count "tail" on all four channels (RGB, Red, Green, Blue). Mid point on the blue channel was moved to the right a bit to remove the yellow cast from moving the black point, and brightness was moved up about 9 in the brightness/contrast panel.

 

Third file is an autolevels adjustment.

 

Peter

Edited December 15, 2010 by psfred

[Truppi327]

Here are some adjustments in Photoshop:First file is an autocontrast adjustment.

 

I don't understand much about color correction and such but to my eye on my computer the "autocontrast adjustment" has the truest representation of Baystate Blue, Eclat de Saphir (two inks I own), and Lamy Blue, Diamine Sapphire, and Waterman Florida Blue (three inks I have sampled).

 

That's pretty cool.

[psfred]

It's a bit hard for me to tell, as the only one of the inks I have is Baystate Blue, and I don't have it in a pen at the moment to compare with the scans.

 

I think the autocontrast is very close, and probably the autolevels correction is very close as well. I suspect I overdid the clipping in the manual corrections.

 

Peter

[yachtsilverswan]

As an ink-novice always on the hunt for my perfect blue (highly saturated color, pen friendly, and completely devoid of the purple pestilence), two features of your scans struck me:

 

1. Montblanc Royal Blue is more of a washed out weak Royal Purple - so sad.

 

2. Noodler's Bay State Blue really is an amazing color with visual pop, great saturation, and the truest of true blue blues. Wow. (Must resist the dark side... Must protect the ink view window of the 149...)

 

Thanks again for this same page, same scan, same pen test.

[SamCapote]

As an ink-novice always on the hunt for my perfect blue (highly saturated color, pen friendly, and completely devoid of the purple pestilence), two features of your scans struck me:

 

1. Montblanc Royal Blue is more of a washed out weak Royal Purple - so sad.

 

2. Noodler's Bay State Blue really is an amazing color with visual pop, great saturation, and the truest of true blue blues. Wow. (Must resist the dark side... Must protect the ink view window of the 149...)

 

Thanks again for this same page, same scan, same pen test.

 

Believe it or not, this was a "dry run," as I have 95-100 blues to display together like this. Having all of them done on the same paper, with the same dip pen nibs (I now see that I need a finer nib in addition to the one above and the Q-tip smear), and scanned exactly the same way and/or with the same EXACT adjustments is crucial.

 

Also, as much as I love BSB (I have 6 bottles of it), I would NEVER put it in any of my MB's, or any pen that I paid more than $50.

 

It's a bit hard for me to tell, as the only one of the inks I have is Baystate Blue, and I don't have it in a pen at the moment to compare with the scans.

 

I think the autocontrast is very close, and probably the autolevels correction is very close as well. I suspect I overdid the clipping in the manual corrections.

 

Peter

 

Peter, I have a distinct advantage being able to look at the original. What you did demonstrate is the impact of those auto settings which I also have in PaintShop, & have been playing around with after seeing your results. Your changes did give more of that BSB "Vibrant blue POP," but at the cost of improving the "weaker/washed out colors" & the violet tints of inks like Herbin, Diamine, Montblanc, & Edelstein. I swear they used dirty dishwater when mixing the Edelstein--it looks that bad in comparison in person. On my monitor, I still have not seen the accurate representations & differences represented yet. I'm now going to spend some time with the VueScan settings, which I only used on default so far. It will also be interesting once I get the IT8 forms from Germany.

[SamCapote]

I did a lot of experimenting with the VueScan settings, and less adjustments then needed in PaintShop. I can get it more accurate on my monitor compared to the original...but still not the same. I am realizing that the real value doing this is providing relative comparisons, since everyone will have some of the blues I'm using, and they can extrapolate from their own experience. However good I get these scans, they will look different on various monitors from person to person. Ultimately, the only way to show these realistically is what Greg Clark did with the Ink Sampler painting them on pages of a booklet that you see for yourself.

 

ps.) Trying to get a perfect web image of the original can drive you nuts. LOL!

Edited December 15, 2010 by SamCapote

[corniche]

I may be wrong, but I believe all bulletproofs are pigment inks.

That can't be true because then they wouldn't be safe for fountain pens. Standard Noodler's Black is bulletproof and is most definitely a dye based ink.

 

Greetings all,

 

Mike is correct- all fp inks are dye based. They must be completely water miscible to function properly; however, pigments are solids and are not miscible, i.e., they do not completely dissolve. Pigmented inks operate much like paint- the pigment is suspended in a solvent; when it is applied to a surface, the solvent evaporates and the pigment is left behind.

 

Noodler's inks use fiber reactive DYES; what makes them permanent is the inclusion of Na2CO3, sodium carbonate, (aka, soda ash or washing soda). Sodium carbonate is a salt, created from the distillation of carbonic acid. Aniline based fiber reactive dyes, when placed on a fibrous material such as cloth or paper, (wood pulp fiber), become permanent when sodium carbonate is added via a chemical reaction. That is what makes Noodlers inks permanent but still safe for fountain pens.

 

Best regards,

 

Sean

[corniche]

Well, (also with respect) then, please, inform me. Do you know the composition of those inks?. I have a bottle of britannia blue waves, and it certainly looks nothing like a soluble dye ink. It looks like paint. If you try to mix them, you get very odd results (unlike it happens with dyes). I use them anyway, being careful not to let it dry on my nibs, because I appreciate their properties. I see nothing wrong with pigments. Sailor and Platinum have new blue pigment-inks that I want to try.

 

You comments sound like I am guilty of defamation. Go to: http://www.richardsp...f/care/inks.htm and you can read: "The highest-maintenance inks of all, in my experience, are Noodler's "bulletproof" colors. These inks, although their dyes are in solution, contain suspended particulate matter (the stuff that makes the ink bond chemically with the paper), and they can sometimes have flow and clogging issues". Dont know want you think, but "suspended particulate matter" sounds a lot like pigment. Even if it is not, the consequences seem the same.

 

In any case, I dont want to start an argument here. As I said, I like those inks and I use them. They work very well.

 

Greetings fjf,

 

The "suspended particulate matter" that Richard is referring to is most likely the soda ash, that is also what gave Noodler's inks their cloudy appearance when they first came out; however, I think that has been resolved. I can't say for sure, because I do not use Noodler's inks myself.

 

Best wishes,

 

Sean

Edited December 15, 2010 by S. P. Colfer

[corniche]

Hello Sam,

 

Now back to subject of this thread- the blues; I appreciate your herculean efforts in presenting this ensemble of blues. :clap1:

 

However, there has been one significant member excluded from the cast- and this is outrageous!!!

 

Where the devil is Parker Permanent Blue!

 

All the best,

 

Sean

[fjf]

Greetings all,

 

Mike is correct- all fp inks are dye based.

 

 

Look here: http://www.platinum-pen.co.jp/products/spare/ink/eink.html

 

I hope you recognize that not all are dye-based, and that platinum knows something about fountain pens. They say it in the open. I would like a similar public statement from Nathan saying that his inks are not pigment-based. Then I will believe it. Being an industrial secret, only he knows.

 

I keep saying that I do not want an argument about this. I use Noodlers bulletproof inks; I like them. It is just that I have seen them and some look like paint. Unless he says the opposite (in public), I believe they are pigmented. I tend to believe in what I see.

[corniche]

Greetings fjf,

 

I am familiar with Platinum’s pigmented inks; Sailor, Diamine and others also make them. However, you are not catching two key elements.

 

One, the Platinum inks you show, (as well as Sailor’s pigmented inks, etc.), are NOT labeled fountain ink; they are labeled PIGMENT INK. Aren’t Noodler’s inks labeled as fountain ink? To do that, they must meet particular parameters to be in legal compliance with the labeling laws. Fountain inks are LEGALLY described as pigment free, DYE based inks; once pigments are included; the ink can no longer be labeled as fountain ink. That is why the Platinum and Sailor labels read “Pigment Ink.”

 

Two, Platinum’s own description quotes: "...for pigment ink useable fountain pens." Run that past Waterman, Parker, Lamy, any of the major pen brands, and they will all tell you that their pens are not designed for pigment inks and if you use pigmented inks- your warranty is voided. I think there may be a problem with Japanese to English translations; when Platinum says "...for pigment ink useable fountain pens," I think what they are really referring to are what we call technical pens.

 

In regards to the particulates you and Richard see in Noodler's inks; I still believe they are dye enveloped soda ash particulates, (as I stated above).

 

Please trust me, I have more than just a passing interest in inks; just ask any of the real "old timers" around here who knew me as corniche, founder of Colfer's Imperial Inks.

 

Best regards,

 

Sean

 

* Edit, fixed typos.

Edited December 15, 2010 by S. P. Colfer

[fjf]

Oh, I see. So you believe the suspension is formed by sodium carbonate particles. But Sodium carbonate is soluble, and it has to be necessarily in solution to create the alkaline pH that allows the reactive dye to bond to the cellulose in paper. And maybe this suspension is to avoid a too alkaline (and caustic) ink solution. But the basic pH is needed for the dye to bind cellulose; there lies the secret recipe. The technology used to dye cotton fabric applied to create waterproof ink. Smart. I'll shut up now.

[SamCapote]

Greetings all,

 

Mike is correct- all fp inks are dye based.

 

 

Look here: http://www.platinum-...e/ink/eink.html

 

I hope you recognize that not all are dye-based, and that platinum knows something about fountain pens. They say it in the open. I would like a similar public statement from Nathan saying that his inks are not pigment-based. Then I will believe it. Being an industrial secret, only he knows.

 

I keep saying that I do not want an argument about this. I use Noodlers bulletproof inks; I like them. It is just that I have seen them and some look like paint. Unless he says the opposite (in public), I believe they are pigmented. I tend to believe in what I see.

 

I wish you would quit running your erroneous assumptions in this thread, especially when I asked previously--because it doesn't belong here, I (& others) have stated that your belief is wrong, and because you "keep saying that you [supposedly] do not want arguments about this.". Nathan owes you (or anyone) nothing, no matter what you would like. If you want to be objective in your statements or beliefs, you can contact him rather than making claims that fit with what you already believe. We know that there Platinum and Sailor have nano size pigmented inks which many have used safely in fountain pens, including me, but that has nothing to do with any other line of inks. We mostly do not see what is reality. We believe first, then we see to confirm what we believe.

 

Sean, I'm not quite done going through all my Abraxis, Noodlers, Private Reserve, R&K, Sailor (standard, seasonal, Pen Gallery/Hougada line), but this is what I have so far:

 

01 - Abraxis Konigsblau

02 - Abraxis Orion Blue

03 - Abraxis Royal Blue

04 - Abraxis Water Blue

05 - Aurora Blue

06 - Blue Madonna

07 - Calamo Stipula Blu della Robbia

08 - Caran d'Ache Blue Sky

09 - Cartier Blue

10 - Conway Stewart Blue

11 - DeAtramentis Jules Verne Blue

12 - DeAtramentis Lavender

13 - DeAtramentis Saphire Blue

14 - DeAtramentis Steel Blue

15 - Delta Blue

16 - Diamine Asa

17 - Diamine China Blue

18 - Diamine Florida

19 - Diamine Hvasan Turquoise

20 - Diamine Kensington

21 - Diamine Majestic

22 - Diamine Mediterranean Blue

23 - Diamine Midnight

24 - Diamine Presidential

25 - Diamine Prussian Blue

26 - Diamine Royal

27 - Diamine Saphire

28 - Diamine Steel

29 - Diamine Washable

30 - Diamine WES Imperial

31 - Dunhill Blue

32 - Eagle Royal Blue

33 - Everflow True Blue

34 - Gates Blue Tablets

35 - Graf Von Faber Castell Royal Blue

36 - Herbin Bleu Myositis

37 - Herbin Eclat de Saphir

38 - Higgins Blue Waterproof Drawing Ink

39 - Inoxcrom Royal Blue

40 - Iroshizuku Ajisai

41 - Iroshizuku Asa-Gao

42 - Iroshizuku Kon Peki

43 - Iroshizuku Tsuyu-Kusa

44 - Lamy Blue

45 - Levenger Cobalt Blue

46 - Levenger Skies of Blue

47 - MontBlanc Royal Blue

48 - Montegrappa Blue

49 - Montiverde Blue

50 - Namiki (Pilot) Blue

51 - Noodlers Bad Belted Kingfisher Blue

52 - Noodlers Bad Blue Heron

53 - Noodlers Baystate Blue

54 - Noodlers Blue

55 - Noodlers Blue

56 - Noodlers Blue Bonnet

57 - Noodlers Eel Blue

58 - Noodlers Luxury Blue

59 - Noodlers Midway Blue

60 - Noodlers Navy Blue

61 - Noodlers Ottoman Azure

62 - Noodlers Polar Blue

63 - Omas Blue

64 - Parker Penman Sapphire

65 - Parker Quink Washable Blue

66 - Parker Permanent Blue

67 - Pelikan 4001 Royal Blue

68 - Pelikan Edelstein Sapphire

69 - Pelikan Edelstein Topaz

70 - Platinum Pigment Blue

71 - Private Reserve American

72 - Private Reserve Cosmic

73 - Private Reserve DC Electric

74 - Private Reserve DC Supershow

75 - Private Reserve Lake Placid

76 - Private Reserve Midnight

77 - Private Reserve Naples

78 - Private Reserve Tropical

79 - R&K Blue Mare

80 - R&K Konigsblau Royal Blue

81 - R&K Permanent Blue

82 - Robersons

83 - S.T. Dupont Royal Blue

84 - Sailor Blue

85 - Sailor Souten Blue

86 - Sailor Summer Sky

87 - Sheaffer Blue

88 - Sheaffer Skrip Permanent #54 Royal Blue

89 - Signature Blue

90 - Visconti Blue

91 - Waterman Florida Blue

92 - Yard-O-LED Blue

 

 

 

.

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2010 by SamCapote

[Sholom]

With all due respects (really!) to all above in the pigment ink debate, I think we have a terminology problem here. "Normal" dyes are by definition completely soluble in the medium they are designed for (which may or may not be water) up to some concentration level. Their solubility limit often is a function of temperature, so if where you store your inks gets colder in the winter (my study can drop below 60F if the auxiliary heat is not on), some dyes may precipitate out to some extent. When the ink warms up and is shaken they will redissolve. They may also begin to come out of solution if enough water in the ink evaporates, especially if the inks are highly saturated (in the chemical concentration sense - saturation in the color sense is a different phenomenon).

 

Notice that I put normal in quotes above. Many, many dyes when present in sufficient concentration in water will undergo a process called aggregation. This can be at the molecular level, i.e. two dye molecules start traveling around together as a unit, or the units can get quite large. If these units are large enough, they can become colloids, solids that are so fine that random thermal energy is sufficient to overcome the force of gravity so that they do not settle (colloids that Michael Faraday made in the mid-19th century are extant and at least of them haven't settled yet). At this point, one COULD call these solids pigments, but they behave quite differently from most materials that are made to be sold as pigments. They don't settle and if the particles are small enough, they are completely transparent. If the average size of said particles is in the nanometer range, they would today be called nanoparticles (although they were known and partially understood long before the term nanoparticle was invented).

 

Where it gets complicated is that there is no sharp dividing line between these colloidal materials and "real" pigments. There is a smooth transition between the states, so that a particular dye in a particular mix of water, surfactants, and other stuff may form something that is just a little bit bigger than a colloid as defined above and show some settling, yet still be of a particle size to move smoothly through a fountain pen nib. These intermediate particles might start showing some opacity both in the bottle and on paper, but still not behave like ordinary paint pigments that are large enough to lodge in the channels of a fountain pen. I suspect (but do not know) that some of the more opaque Noodler's inks (and maybe others) have particle sizes that fall in this range. Such inks will be more prone to settling and be more sensitive to water evaporation and thermal shocks, but as long as their solids resuspend on shaking, they should be safe for the average fountain pen. They may separate a bit in the pen over time (as noted with some Noodler's inks) but the motion of the pen will generally be sufficient to remix the inks.

 

It is possible for these "large colloid" inks to undergo a particular type of failure that can develop over time. In any colloid, there is some force present that is opposing the further growth of the colloidal particles. This can be either electrostatic (the particles all have the same charge and like charges repel) or the result of materials adsorbed on their surfaces that create a repulsive force via solvation effects (too complicated to explain here - you'll need to trust me on this one or a spend a good bit of time with a colloid science textbook reading about steric stabilization - the name itself is a misnomer in my opinion). If the almost non-colloidal particles are not full stabilized (this can occur for quite a number of reasons), then the particles may continue to slowly grow in the ink until they get to a size that they separate out too rapidly and either collect in the ink reservoir or form a film on the reservoir or feed channels. I have a new bottle of Noodler's Golden Brown that arrived this way. I cannot get the black component to come through the nib (broad and medium italics) of my Osmiroid 65 unless I have shaken the pen and rinsed the nib with water immediately before writing. I believe others have noted that Golden Brown tends to settle more than some other "near-bulletproof" inks (several of which I use regularly), but I think my bottle is passed being usable, at least in Osmiroid nibs. Note that my nibs are not clogged - the orangy-yellow soluble dye in Golden Brown comes through nicely (except I don't like its color at all).

 

At some point, colored particles do get too big to flow cleanly through a fountain pen. Many (but not all) paint pigments fall into this category. These are the pigments that Sean is referring to and no they should not be in fountain pen inks, nor do I think anyone deliberately puts them there. To summarize, the lowest maintenance inks are the ones with fully soluble dyes at a concentration low enough that aggregates do not get as large as nanometer sizes. These are your classic Waterman's, Herbin's, etc. as well as some of the Noodler's and Private Reserve inks. Others of the latter two brands and some others (e.g. certain of the newer Diamine inks I suspect) have high enough dye concentrations that they are more sensitive to temperature changes and evaporation but are still not colloidal. Others of the Noodler's inks, as well as the Japanese nanoparticle inks, are colloidal in part or in whole. Properly formulated and maintained they are still quite safe for fountain pens, but all bets are off if you like to boil or freeze your inks or mix them with the wrong other inks. Colloidal inks may age faster than fully in solution inks, and if they seem to be clogging pens or separating too much in your pens, you should toss them or use them in dip pens. Again, there is no sharp line between these categories, so at least some of the debate between dyes and pigments in fountain pen inks is moot. If it flows in your pen, it is safe to use, and if not don't keep using it. I'm sure every ink manufacturer understands at least the practical aspects of what I've described if not the detailed chemistry.

 

Sorry for the long discourse, but this is a more complicated subject than it looks, and I've only scratched the surface here. My chem Ph.D. is over 30 years old and I knew none of this until 10 years later when I went to work for a photographic company. I've been doing pigments, dyes, and dispersions ever since so I'm not making this up. Hope it helps.

 

Sholom

[SamCapote]

It would be better to continue these conversationsin this thread showing photos of many highly regarded brands that have sediment forming, rather than in this thread about displaying the diversity of blues and how to best represent them.

[Sandy1]

It would be better to continue these conversationsin this thread showing photos of many highly regarded brands that have sediment forming, rather than in this thread about displaying the diversity of blues and how to best represent them.

 

Ah yes, I knew this thread has some interest, and may now be re-focused. :-)

 

Display the diversity and represent the array.

 

I still return to the mapping approach.

 

Blues are perhaps the most challenging because of the sheer quantity. But, if the method can handle the tough stuff, then likely it is valid. i.e. If its built 'right', then scaling down is no problem. as opposed to built wrong, then trying to scale up.

 

There is the level of granularity. What I consider the basic unit of differentiation. That must be done by the human eye. (more L8R)

 

And since we are limited by media & method, (FP ink from pen onto writing paper), many stray elements can be set aside. (Well - there goes the queue tip swab. Ooopsie!!)

 

So, with about 100 elements in the array called 'Blue' it seems there will clusters that cannot be differentiated when coming from pen onto paper and viewed by the eye.

 

Can the other methods of differentiation be deployed? the swab perhaps? Or my favourite - the white bowl of clear water? A densitometer? No, no & no - human eye only.

 

I still cling to the example of switching inks within a multipage document from page to page. Then upon the same page ... So the level of differentiation itself is tiered. And where is the practical limit? (But this is FPN, so practicality is relevant, but ... ah ErHmm,.. concessions must be made.

 

Samples from same pen onto same paper. I prefer a 'block'. I am far more satisfied with the 2x3 cells in my IRs than the previous rows (1x6). And I think that is about the smallest practical size for a note. (Not a Postie - different function) A block also supports comparison amongst at least four inks, -- even eight for mid-tier differentiation.

 

So write the same text onto a pre-cut piece of paper, then write the name on the back. No peeking!) Wait a day or two for the colour to 'set', then starting sorting into piles / clusters then work to merge the clusters.

 

Not a huge deal, just a lot of time. And I reckon it'd need perhaps five to ten repeats to get a fair representation. (Stats aren't my forte).

 

A floor & a ladder - not a wall.

 

A re-do of the colour wheel shape: no longer a wedge. perhaps only x & y: light - dark and violet - cyan. (??

 

So .... let's say it works, OK. Well, then what? Reduce the image to fit on a monitor? Nah - too easy. (Think touch screen navigation cum GPS. 3D Google Earth perhaps.)

 

Now, repeat with sample blocks from six pens on four papers to map an ink relative to itself.

 

So: (100 inks) x (6 pens) x (4 papers) = nap time.

 

Bye,

S1