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Edison / Hakumin Project No 2. We Need Your Help!


SJM1123
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What do you think?  

83 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you like to see the next Edison Pen / Hakumin Urushi LE as a Clipped or a Clipless Herald?



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Being a Herald owner, I do believe the clip contributes to the aesthetics of the pen design - in part breaking up the long lines of the pen, and in part adding additional interest. Not to mention the functionality.

 

Just one opinion.

 

Way to go Brian

Brian

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I prefer clips on nearly all of my pens. However this is not so with my urushi, maki-e, and raden pens, nearly all of which are clipless. The clip, INMHO, would seem to be misapplied, even a distraction, to the styles and finishes I enjoy and own.

Just received clipless Edison Urushi Pearl today's post and am wildly happy!

Edited by roger3

May you and those you love, be always blessed with peace and never ending joy.

Roger

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It might be a logistics nightmare to be sure, but would it be possible to offer both options??

 

Brian likes to make sure that members of a Limited Edition set are identical.

 

Personally, I think that an option like "with or without clip" would be acceptable so long as it was known in advance. I can see why a special change after the LE has been rolled out ("I have the only Whatever LE that came with XYZ feature" after people have already bought their Whatever LEs) would make some people mad. But if it was stated as an option from the get-go, I don't think anyone would have the right to be mad.

 

Still, if the pens aren't largely the same, it might not feel like a real LE to Brian. And Brian is the artisan, so he gets to decide where the line of "too much customization" falls.

 

I soooo can't wait until I'm financially stable enough to buy more pens again so that I can get another Edison!

Who are the pen shops in your neighborhood? Find out or tell us where they are, at http://penshops.info/

Blog: http://splicer.com/

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We definitely appreciate the feedback, everyone!

 

It might be a logistics nightmare to be sure, but would it be possible to offer both options??

 

Brian likes to make sure that members of a Limited Edition set are identical.

 

Personally, I think that an option like "with or without clip" would be acceptable so long as it was known in advance. I can see why a special change after the LE has been rolled out ("I have the only Whatever LE that came with XYZ feature" after people have already bought their Whatever LEs) would make some people mad. But if it was stated as an option from the get-go, I don't think anyone would have the right to be mad.

 

Still, if the pens aren't largely the same, it might not feel like a real LE to Brian. And Brian is the artisan, so he gets to decide where the line of "too much customization" falls.

 

I soooo can't wait until I'm financially stable enough to buy more pens again so that I can get another Edison!

 

Interesting idea. Maybe this idea should be a separate poll in itself?

 

"If you are buying a Limited Edition Pen, should every pen be identical?"

 

"If the edition is not identical, and the maker states it from the beginning, are you OK with that?"

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"If you are buying a Limited Edition Pen, should every pen be identical?"

 

"If the edition is not identical, and the maker states it from the beginning, are you OK with that?"

 

I think the question is more nuanced than that. It's really a question of what features can change and have it still be the same pen. The pens are offered with a variety of nibs. Would making furniture optional make it seem like a different pen even if the rest of the features were identical.

 

Further complicating the issue is that in the context of Edison Pens, where you are happy to tailor pens to be one of a kind, having a "one of a kind" item is the regular experience rather than the exception. When people buy LEs from mass industrial penmakers, they are getting something more rare than the "normal" pens. In a sense, when you do a limited edition, those pens are less rare than the ones that you normally sell.

 

That's not to say that you shouldn't do LE series, just that it means something different coming from you than it does coming from Waterman or Montblanc. I'm not sure that makes it any more or less desirable or acceptable to have the clip be optional, but Edison could conceivably do that. Waterman probably couldn't roll out an LE with an optional clip without totally screwing up their production line.

 

Personally I think you can safely make the clip optional, but then I also thought it would be cool to add an ink window to one pen of a LE. On reflection I was wrong about that.

Who are the pen shops in your neighborhood? Find out or tell us where they are, at http://penshops.info/

Blog: http://splicer.com/

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I lost my first Nakaya clipless cigar because it fell out of my pocket and I never found it. Any clipless pens I own stay at home. I have a herald and agree that the clip adds to the aesthetic of that model. I vote "clip". I have several urushi pens with clips and they look just fine including a $3500 Platinum.

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go 1/2 and 1/2. with/without. that way they can decide.

 

I like this idea. It is a bit like when LEs are offered and half are offered with gold colored trim and the other with chrome.

I don't know if that makes for two series or not ('n of 20' or 'x of 10' and 'y of 10')

 

Another option, though I don't know how difficult it would be, is to find a way to have a removable clip. An accommodation clip with a felt lining so it could be slid on and off without damaging the pen?

 

greg

Edited by gregamckinney

Don't feel bad. I'm old; I'm meh about most things.

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"If you are buying a Limited Edition Pen, should every pen be identical?"

 

"If the edition is not identical, and the maker states it from the beginning, are you OK with that?"

 

I think the question is more nuanced than that. It's really a question of what features can change and have it still be the same pen. The pens are offered with a variety of nibs. Would making furniture optional make it seem like a different pen even if the rest of the features were identical.

 

Further complicating the issue is that in the context of Edison Pens, where you are happy to tailor pens to be one of a kind, having a "one of a kind" item is the regular experience rather than the exception. When people buy LEs from mass industrial penmakers, they are getting something more rare than the "normal" pens. In a sense, when you do a limited edition, those pens are less rare than the ones that you normally sell.

 

That's not to say that you shouldn't do LE series, just that it means something different coming from you than it does coming from Waterman or Montblanc. I'm not sure that makes it any more or less desirable or acceptable to have the clip be optional, but Edison could conceivably do that. Waterman probably couldn't roll out an LE with an optional clip without totally screwing up their production line.

 

Personally I think you can safely make the clip optional, but then I also thought it would be cool to add an ink window to one pen of a LE. On reflection I was wrong about that.

 

There are some interesting points and complications in that Brian is usually a custom maker. My understanding is that now someone CAN'T custom order a copy of the LE, although theoretically unlimited numbers of people can order any of his other designs. So it is still in some way limited.

 

Now, if the LE pen is decided to be all clipless, does that mean a copy of the pen WITH clip is NOT LE, and thus available to anyone at any time? (or vice versa of course: if the "official" LE has a clip, would the clipless version be non-LE?)... In fact, could someone now order a copy of the first LE with a clip?

Edited by Kay

Danitrio Fellowship

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I'd say that nobody would be able to order a custom pearl b/c the time involved wouldn't be worth it for ONE pen. That's why they make a LIMITED edition. It's SO much work, that it's only worth it to them to make 20 or so. So even if somebody popped in and said I want one of these just like those, it probably wouldn't happen.

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I'd say that nobody would be able to order a custom pearl b/c the time involved wouldn't be worth it for ONE pen. That's why they make a LIMITED edition. It's SO much work, that it's only worth it to them to make 20 or so. So even if somebody popped in and said I want one of these just like those, it probably wouldn't happen.

 

 

Actually,

 

Brian and I are in fact doing custom one-off urushi pens. They cost a bit more than a pen from an LE because there is extra waste involved with doing one-offs on my side, and the fact that doing a one-off is a bit more work for Brian as opposed to multiples in one run., but hand lacquering pens is not at all an automated procedure, so it is not prohibitively more work to do one offs as opposed to quantities.

 

However, we are limiting the technique and pen combination to just the limited edition. No other pen with the same combination of lacquer technique and pen model will ever be made by us.

 

That is not to say that a similar technique cant be used on the same model of pen. If there is a significant enough alteration to the technique, in application, in color, etc, it will qualify as a different pen and we can make that as a custom for you. We will make that judgement however, whether or not the technique would be different enough.

 

As for the same technique with and without a clip, I will have to say that if it's the exact same technique with little or no appreciable alteration, we should'nt really allow it to be done as a custom on a clipped if it has already been done as a clipless. e.g. we are most likely not going to make for anyone a pearl with the exact same technique as the first LE with the only difference being a clip.

 

Thanks!

Edited by SJM1123

Check out the new Edison/Hakumin Collaboration: The Urushi Mina Project

To see more projects, or to inquire about a custom urushi pen, visit: www.hakuminurushi.com

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As for the same technique with and without a clip, I will have to say that if it's the exact same technique with little or no appreciable alteration, we should'nt really allow it to be done as a custom on a clipped if it has already been done as a clipless. e.g. we are most likely not going to make for anyone a pearl with the exact same technique as the first LE with the only difference being a clip.

 

 

Then I would say that clip or clipless should be optional for the LE, as long as you artisans making the pens feel that it is aesthetically appropriate and reasonable in terms of the amount of extra work involved... this way if the model and technique is someone's idea of perfection but they are fussy about whether it will have a clip or not they will be able to get their dream pen. Personally for me the Urushi Pearl was my idea of perfection, and I would have been SO SAD if it had only been offered clipped and then I would never have the chance to get a clipless one made!

Danitrio Fellowship

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As for the same technique with and without a clip, I will have to say that if it's the exact same technique with little or no appreciable alteration, we should'nt really allow it to be done as a custom on a clipped if it has already been done as a clipless. e.g. we are most likely not going to make for anyone a pearl with the exact same technique as the first LE with the only difference being a clip.

 

 

Then I would say that clip or clipless should be optional for the LE, as long as you artisans making the pens feel that it is aesthetically appropriate and reasonable in terms of the amount of extra work involved... this way if the model and technique is someone's idea of perfection but they are fussy about whether it will have a clip or not they will be able to get their dream pen. Personally for me the Urushi Pearl was my idea of perfection, and I would have been SO SAD if it had only been offered clipped and then I would never have the chance to get a clipless one made!

 

 

I will say one thing. The way we are planning the technique for this pen, I think that it can only go one way or another, with or without a clip. I have seen several people mention already that it would depend on technique and I agree. Which is why we were asking this prior to a finalized decision on the specifics of the lacquer technique. I am going to adjust the technique slightly to match either a clipped herald or a clipless herald depending on the final decision. I don't think that I would be happy with the aesthetics with one set were I to do the exact same technique on both clipped and clipless pens with what we are planning at the moment.

 

I promise though, that we will do something to please both crowds as we continue to work together on these projects. Also remember, we are always open to custom orders. While I can't give you the same technique on the same pen, I am willing to work with you to adjust and modify a technique or develop one suited to your tastes.

 

Thanks everyone,

Ern.

Edited by SJM1123

Check out the new Edison/Hakumin Collaboration: The Urushi Mina Project

To see more projects, or to inquire about a custom urushi pen, visit: www.hakuminurushi.com

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Okay, honestly. Clipless. I love my Herald, but think the clip could be a different shape and maybe a bit higher up on the cap and would look super duper awesomer. That's a technical term, by the way. Do you have any other styles of clips you could choose from?

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Clipless. My Urushi Pearl is fabulous. A clip would break up the line and obscure the finish of a pen like this. Additionally, it is hard, maybe impossible, to create a cap without a line where the clip attaches to the cap.

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However, we are limiting the technique and pen combination to just the limited edition. No other pen with the same combination of lacquer technique and pen model will ever be made by us.

 

Interesting! Am I right in assuming that this is an attitude you're taking with these projects because of the technique, not because it's a LE?

 

I'd be shocked to learn that ever since I (and nineteen others) bought the Tuxedo Series LE that Brian won't make or sell any other black ebonite Heralds. I'm sure he won't sell them engraved with "Tuxedo Series" and a number and they won't be shipped with a Boone Titanium ring with ebonite inlay, but nothing led me to believe that he would refuse to sell Heralds in black ebonite.

 

I have to admit that I'm a little disturbed by the idea that you would promise not only never to make more of the limited edition, but never to make a pen similar to one in your limited edition. I don't know enough about the technique to know how much variance would constitute a change in technique.

 

Is it that because of the technique that the pens cannot be visibly numbered?

Who are the pen shops in your neighborhood? Find out or tell us where they are, at http://penshops.info/

Blog: http://splicer.com/

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However, we are limiting the technique and pen combination to just the limited edition. No other pen with the same combination of lacquer technique and pen model will ever be made by us.

I have to admit that I'm a little disturbed by the idea that you would promise not only never to make more of the limited edition, but never to make a pen similar to one in your limited edition. I don't know enough about the technique to know how much variance would constitute a change in technique.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this--I didn't say that similar pens could not be made, the technique used on the pearls can be adapted and changed in so many different ways that for ease of communication, I am simply calling variations on the technique a "different technique".

 

In terms of the limitation, I meant that a pen that essentially looks the same as the edition would not be made. Is this not the premise of a limited edition when used with pens?

 

The pens in the Urushi Pearl edition were numbered and visibly so. The numbering was not big, but anyone examining the pen itself can see the number placed directly below my signature. The number is in the format of X/20 and we agreed that we would only be making those 20 along with two and no more than two artist proofs. If I were to make more of the same pen and sell it, would it not be dishonesty to those who bought one of the LE who were told that this edition was in fact limited?

 

As for whether or not the simple change of a clip would constitute breaking the limitation is still to be determined.

 

In terms of my agreement with Brian, it was that I would not be making another pearl with the exact same technique as the LE--that includes color and shape and pattern of the mottling, but does not mean that I will never again use the kara/kawari nuri technique if that was what you were wondering....

 

Please tell me if what I am saying is unclear, or if I missed the point.

Edited by SJM1123

Check out the new Edison/Hakumin Collaboration: The Urushi Mina Project

To see more projects, or to inquire about a custom urushi pen, visit: www.hakuminurushi.com

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I understand you perfectly fine and I think you're right. If somebody spends more to get an LE then it would be kind of a jip for somebody else to go in later on and say, I want one JUST like that, except for the number (obviously).

 

As far as the tuxedo, I almost had a black ebonite herald made, but changed my mind b/c I wanted engraving. So he's still doing that. But the rings and all the yadda yadda, I doubt.

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I'll put in my thoughts here...

 

However, I really don't want this to get into a debate about the "true" definition of a Limited Edition Pen. If this starts to escalate, maybe another thread?

 

In my opinion, and I think that I also speak for my partner, Ernest here....

 

Any pen made after a Limited Edition that is the same model or shape should not be easily mistaken for the Limited Edition.

 

If someone wants to call Ernest and I, and request a Huron in an identical lacquer technique as the LE Pearl, I have no problem with that, and we will oblige. I don't think that any of the Pearl LE owners would mind. It's a completely different pen.

 

On the other hand, will we take orders for an extended Pearl of the exact same technique? Or a clipped Pearl that is otherwise identical?

 

The exact same pen, but a longer version? The exact same pen, but a clip?

 

Well, this gets touchy. This is where decisions need to be made. In my opinion, I would not take this work. However, can I hold fault in a company who would do this? Technically, no, and I would not.

 

As long as the pen made after the LE is not identical, in my mind there is no problem, but there are grey areas. There are no written rules to LE's that I know of.

 

If a pen company wants to make a pen identical to an LE afterwards, and extend it, or add a clip, they can do so, if they clearly state this to the LE owners prior....my opinion. However, we will not do this.

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I only carry my inexpensive work pens in my pocket. Anything of value I carry in a pen case. Then if the pen needs a place to rest, it has the case - no rolling off issues. So I've voted clipless. And it looks like that option is romping ahead!

 

As for definition of limited edition, my two cents' worth is that the test simply that of identicalness: if it looks the same, it is the same; if not, it's a different series. A clip on a FP makes a substantial difference - else why all this discussion - so to my mind it constitutes a different pen, therefore a new LE set.

 

Thanks for raising the discussion in this way.

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