Is Lion & Pen Gone For Good?

[Vintagepens]

PS I'd love to see the PCA take this under wing -- that is, to host a serious pen-history forum, or at least to mirror or archive one. But until a permanent solution comes along, I'd be more than happy to put up anything anyone wants to contribute at vintagepens.com. I already have an Archive section, where I've put my own past articles from the PENnant and elsewhere, which could easily be expanded and reorganized for the purpose.

[Gerry]

I note that there is some concern that the FPN doesn't address the needs of the community in hosting information about fountain pens.

 

While I agree that we aren't everything to everyone, if anyone wanted to discuss changes we could consider to address these concerns, I'd like to hear them. We do archive everything.

 

We have been here a long time (in virtual time anyway) preceding L&P by some time, and seem ready to continue for the foreseeable future. Perhaps some changes in the setup of the History section would accommodate people's concerns.

 

Anyone want to talk about it?

 

Warm regards,

 

Gerry

[pen2paper]

I read, and hopefully learn from all of the pen history related threads, here.

..the deeper, more detailed the better.

Did view Lion & Pen-only-disqualified to participate by lack of knowlege...

If possible, archiving the (permitted) study materials here..great idea..

would add to FPN in a large way.. the interest for such material Is Here..

in my very humble thoughts.

[simp]

That is exactly why, some time ago, I suggested to the PCA that they add a wiki for pen info. As an organization, it is much more likely to be able to keep a site alive than a private individual.

 

The reply I initially received was enthusiastic; but, apparently the board members did not wish to pursue the idea.

 

I suppose when the time comes to publish information I have put together on Inkograph Co. Inc., I'll do it on Wikipedia. Wikipedia will surely outlive any of the indivual-run pen boards and be more accessible, today and in the future, than if it were published in Pennant.

If you need a wiki, also just for testing, I can give you write access to mine (http://www.fountainpen.it). The same apply for anyone interested.

 

I cannot ensure you that it will outlive Wikipedia, but at least is easily replicable. It's maintained on the server of my company so it should not be so volatile as a personal one. And it's quite easy also to mirror: up to now anyone asked me for this, but if requested I can give anyone asking a dump of the whole site. And if FPN or anyone want to use it, I will happy to give all the data.

 

But its major advantage, the same of Wikipedia, is that all the info inside it can be legally mirrored by anyone and it's preserved as such by the license.

 

I started it instead of directly using Wikipedia because I share the concern about the quality of contributions and the pestering of arrogant ignorant people in it. I had to correct at least two time the italian page on fountain because someone insisted to put in it the infamous "ink blot" story, not wanting to recognize it was a lie because he read it on a book. And also I had to overcome of some of the Wikipedia limitation, like the limit on image size, that avoided me to put there my ADs high resolution scans.

 

Regards

Simone

[simp]

I note that there is some concern that the FPN doesn't address the needs of the community in hosting information about fountain pens.

 

While I agree that we aren't everything to everyone, if anyone wanted to discuss changes we could consider to address these concerns, I'd like to hear them. We do archive everything.

 

We have been here a long time (in virtual time anyway) preceding L&P by some time, and seem ready to continue for the foreseeable future. Perhaps some changes in the setup of the History section would accommodate people's concerns.

 

Anyone want to talk about it?

 

Warm regards,

 

Gerry

Don't know if it possible with your software but my suggestion is to have some sort of dump of the whole info periodically distributed to trusted people with the authorization for them to be able to republish all in case of need. This should be sufficient to erase any concerns about the loss of the information.

 

Regards

Simone

[Vintagepens]

I note that there is some concern that the FPN doesn't address the needs of the community in hosting information about fountain pens.

 

While I agree that we aren't everything to everyone, if anyone wanted to discuss changes we could consider to address these concerns, I'd like to hear them. We do archive everything.

 

We have been here a long time (in virtual time anyway) preceding L&P by some time, and seem ready to continue for the foreseeable future. Perhaps some changes in the setup of the History section would accommodate people's concerns.

 

Anyone want to talk about it?

 

Warm regards,

 

Gerry

 

For me, one of the main problems with using FPN as a pen history reference is the messiness of search results. This is a direct result of what FPN is, however, so I'm not sure much can be done about it. That is to say, there is much more activity at FPN, with a much higher rate of posting by relative newcomers, and with a very large proportion of discussions centering on new pens -- with no forums or sub-forums explicitly set aside for old pens only. So search results are full of passing mentions, endlessly repeated questions, and beginners' hearsay, not to mention plenty of good old chatter, making it very time-consuming to dig out the few authoritative responses in the pile.

 

I'm not sure what FPN could do to change things. I think FPN does a very good job at what it does -- but that there is also a need for a more specialized site for serious pen history researchers to exchange and share information. I'm not saying I would have run Lion & Pen the way it was run; nonetheless, a real researchers' forum has to be in some respects exclusive: not because experts don't want to mingle with or respond to nonexperts, but because one doesn't want the information that is available only there to get buried under information that is, at best, available everywhere.

[pen2paper]

David it sure reads as though Gerry is offering to discuss options that might accomodate a pen history/reference/discussion section.

 

There's little I can contribute.. but sure would like to see this happen. I use modern fountain pens in daily work world...but vintage anything is the basis of real interest..

 

FPN is definitely the 'nest" and 'fledge ledge' of the fountain world. As such, friendly retreads of basic newbie info will always be a feature..

A distinct, separate, forum will keep such history-reference topics "At the Top", for quick access. How one enters & selects, either 'new content', or directly to forum makes the difference? or am I wrong here?

edited to add:

might there also be either Picasa web albums, or Flicker albums, where reference/study example photos could permanently reside?

Edited August 1, 2010 by pen2paper

[jar]

Tossing an idea out.

 

How about an area that is split into two sections, one subforum where folk like myself that don't really know very much can ask questions and get answers, but another where posting is by invitation only. The limited posting area can be where the L&P type veterans can post material like what was found at the old L&P. The open area is where folk like myself can comment on the material, kinda a peanut gallery.

[Dave Johannsen]

For me, one of the main problems with using FPN as a pen history reference is the messiness of search results. This is a direct result of what FPN is, however, so I'm not sure much can be done about it. That is to say, there is much more activity at FPN, with a much higher rate of posting by relative newcomers, and with a very large proportion of discussions centering on new pens -- with no forums or sub-forums explicitly set aside for old pens only. So search results are full of passing mentions, endlessly repeated questions, and beginners' hearsay, not to mention plenty of good old chatter, making it very time-consuming to dig out the few authoritative responses in the pile.

 

I'm not sure what FPN could do to change things. I think FPN does a very good job at what it does -- but that there is also a need for a more specialized site for serious pen history researchers to exchange and share information. I'm not saying I would have run Lion & Pen the way it was run; nonetheless, a real researchers' forum has to be in some respects exclusive: not because experts don't want to mingle with or respond to nonexperts, but because one doesn't want the information that is available only there to get buried under information that is, at best, available everywhere.

 

David:

 

I sincerely hope that the content from L&P is not irretrievably lost (you and George contributed so much, and even I noodled out things there that I don't have in my Century folder), but I have begun to post at David Isaacson's new site, http://fountainpenboard.com/forum/. It's too early to say how things will play out, but the tone at the site seems (so far) to be more geared towards collectors (as opposed to novice users). There is a stated willingness to introduce subforums as necessary and to promote some topics to "article status," if they contain enough content. With L&P gone and the Zoss list a bit stagnant, on-line choices seem to be either here (FPN) or there (FPB) (I hope that they both thrive).

 

 

Dave

[pen2paper]

just peeked at this site.. interesting..

an inquiry for gathering core references was met with jest.. but it is very new, and developing..

there are "Advisor's" who actively study pen history.

 

Thanks Dave.

 

 

[Buzz J]

I've tried to contact Ron offering to add the add L&P to the PCA's library as a static source of info or to host L&P on PCA's server so that the information's existence would not be dependent on one individual (although Ron would remain in control).

I didn't receive any response.

 

John Jenkins

PCA Treasurer and On-Line Librarian

[lallin]

I've tried to contact Ron offering to add the add L&P to the PCA's library as a static source of info or to host L&P on PCA's server so that the information's existence would not be dependent on one individual (although Ron would remain in control).

I didn't receive any response.

 

John Jenkins

PCA Treasurer and On-Line Librarian

I hope Ron's personal situation improves and that he will agree to this solution. I think PCA is the ideal "sponsor" for historical discussion (forums) and encyclopedic reference (Wiki). It is a shame to let great repositories of information (such as L&P and Jonathan Donahaye's C-S reference material) be dependent on the longevity, interest and finances of a single individual.

 

I think your offer a very good one; it allows a motivated individual to continue to drive their "baby", but offers a "god-parent" to step in and ensure the "baby" is taken care of when the individual no longer can. Now, when can we have a wiki for more fully-formed reference material? 8-)

[Johnny Appleseed]

I note that there is some concern that the FPN doesn't address the needs of the community in hosting information about fountain pens.

 

While I agree that we aren't everything to everyone, if anyone wanted to discuss changes we could consider to address these concerns, I'd like to hear them. We do archive everything.

 

We have been here a long time (in virtual time anyway) preceding L&P by some time, and seem ready to continue for the foreseeable future. Perhaps some changes in the setup of the History section would accommodate people's concerns.

 

Anyone want to talk about it?

 

Warm regards,

 

Gerry

 

 

David it sure reads as though Gerry is offering to discuss options that might accomodate a pen history/reference/discussion section.

 

FPN's Pen History forum has been, and is, an excellent reference source, and there have been a number of pen history topics that have been discussed here that never made their way to L&P. As mentioned, there were some significant issues with Lion and Pen, not the least of which being that it was in many ways started by a rancourous split with FPN.

 

The problem with FPN, as David mentions, is just the sheer size of the database, and the fact that much vintage pen information is scattered through several different forums (Sheaffer, Parker, CS and Waterman, as well as Esterbook and Wahl-Eversharp, which at least are exclusively vintage, the regional forums, and MontBlanc). The way that search operates after the new software upgrades makes it very difficult to find information, even when you can narrow down on a specific forum (the new search function was becoming an issue at L&P as well - it comes up with multiple hits of the same topic and quickly hits the max results).

 

With some seriously active moderation and indexing, like the indexing in the Ink Reviews Forum, the Pen History forum here could become a significant resource. I have often thought that a good index that links in outside sources would be an incredible valuable tool. However, it would also take a lot of work, and a lot of pruning, to both link in the substantial history from the other forums (and other sites, if going that route) and to remove the more insignificant posts. With very active moderation (moving many general questions off into the Writing Instruments forum, and moving or duplicating topics that cover substantial historical information into Pen History) it could create the kind of information-dense forum that pen history researchers need. FPN would also be advantagous because it's large size makes it more accessable to a larger audience - there was great info at Lion and Pen, but it was harder for newcomers to find it.

 

The other potential issue with FPN is that several significant members of the vintage pen collecting and history community have either been banned or moderated, or have exiled themselves due to issues with FPN admin. That is an unfortunate situation which reflects as poorly on the individuals as the FPN admin, but it is the reality. Lion and Pen also had related issues, and I wonder if a forum created by David Isaacson would avoid that as well - I can think of at least one pen researcher who I think likely avoid a forum run by the good Doctor (though I might be wrong). This may be the unfortunate lot of any pen historical site - there are a number of members of the community that don't play well with others - but I would hope a neutral forum would be able to at least start off more inclusively (the Stylophile site seemed to be on the right track). Isaacson's site does seem to have a good core of "advisors", so it might do alright.

 

A Wiki-style site is good for publishing a certain amount of finished work, but it makes it harder to have the kind of searching discussion that a forum provides - and it is harder to ask questions. I don't know that a wiki forum would have worked for something like Dennis B's outstanding threads on Kraker history.

 

John

[Federalist Pens]

I'm not sure what FPN could do to change things. I think FPN does a very good job at what it does -- but that there is also a need for a more specialized site for serious pen history researchers to exchange and share information. I'm not saying I would have run Lion & Pen the way it was run; nonetheless, a real researchers' forum has to be in some respects exclusive: not because experts don't want to mingle with or respond to nonexperts, but because one doesn't want the information that is available only there to get buried under information that is, at best, available everywhere.

 

David:

 

I sincerely hope that the content from L&P is not irretrievably lost (you and George contributed so much, and even I noodled out things there that I don't have in my Century folder), but I have begun to post at David Isaacson's new site, http://fountainpenboard.com/forum/. It's too early to say how things will play out, but the tone at the site seems (so far) to be more geared towards collectors (as opposed to novice users). There is a stated willingness to introduce subforums as necessary and to promote some topics to "article status," if they contain enough content. With L&P gone and the Zoss list a bit stagnant, on-line choices seem to be either here (FPN) or there (FPB) (I hope that they both thrive).

 

Dave

 

Good choices!

 

Let's not leave out TFPC:

 

www.thefountainpencommunity.com

 

I have already written to Dr. Ron about possibly moving the Lion & Pen archive over to The Community. I can see from his site that his time is devoted to the care of his sick son (Ren). This would explain why no one has heard from him. It is possible still that all this will come to pass, and he will keep L&P active.

 

Frank

Edited August 2, 2010 by Frankiex

[rhr]

Now the error message is no longer "account suspended" -- instead, it looks like it's totally dead. I sent a Facebook note to Ron, offering to do anything necessary to revive/maintain the site, but no response.

 

I can't say I'm very pleased about this. A lot of people put considerable effort into sharing their knowledge there, in the expectation that it would be maintained and archived.

Now, Ron's main "Lion & Pen" homepage with all its feature-length articles is gone, too. http://www.lionandpen.com/ And so is his "Wirt Pens" website. http://www.wirtpens.com/ The error messages are that they are totally dead as well. Luckily I archived them a while ago. The only website left is his Kamakura Pens homepage. http://www.kamakurapens.com/

 

Save it while you can.

 

George Kovalenko.

 

Edited August 2, 2010 by rhr

[Vintagepens]

Although it would be wonderful for someone to reorganize and recategorize everything ever posted on FPN, it is very unlikely to happen! Perhaps, however, it would be possible to add tags to posts and threads that contain valuable and otherwise unavailable information, so that one could narrow any search topic to just those posts and threads. Still would take much manual work, to be sure, and might not even be possible under Invision's software.

 

I've only just taken a brief look at David Isaacson's Fountain Pen Board. John's concerns are, I think, well founded. We'll see if everyone there can get along. I do hope so. I must say, though, that the host's habit of making everything he posts into an interminable guessing game is a real turnoff to many would-be participants, as well as making the finding of hard info that much more difficult.

[Johnny Appleseed]

I've only just taken a brief look at David Isaacson's Fountain Pen Board. John's concerns are, I think, well founded. We'll see if everyone there can get along. I do hope so. I must say, though, that the host's habit of making everything he posts into an interminable guessing game is a real turnoff to many would-be participants, as well as making the finding of hard info that much more difficult.

 

Here here! The term self-aggrandizement comes to mind. Though I admit I have joined and posted significantly on one of my favorite topics - Sears pens - and there are a number of knowledgable collectors over there. Hopefully it can become something.

 

There is a fundimental problem with boards that were founded in large part because their founder or principle administrator got in trouble in too many places and wanted a forum they could not get banned from. It adversely affected another pen board I know of. . .

 

The problem is that when a difficult personality starts something like that, it automatically excludes a significant portion of the community. What we really need is someone who is skilled at avoiding factionalism and can maintain connections across some of the warring personalities. If people with good social skills like David Nishimura, David Johannson, Syd Sapperstien et al. had the time to start and moderate a board, we would really have something (not that I am asking anyone to step up to the plate - just citing some examples). With the new board, though there are some very well-known and important names over there, I worry that it mainly represents a particular faction in the vintage pen community.

 

But maybe thats OK. Maybe what we need is a few boards representing different portions of the community, with some significant cross-pollination. If we really can't all get along, then that may be the best we can ask for.

 

John

 

John

[pen2paper]

hear what you're saying.. focus = pure study/reference..

 

 

 

 

[sumgaikid]

"I've only just taken a brief look at David Isaacson's Fountain Pen Board. John's concerns are, I think, well founded. We'll see if everyone there can get along. I do hope so. I must say, though, that the host's habit of making everything he posts into an interminable guessing game is a real turnoff to many would-be participants, as well as making the finding of hard info that much more difficult."

 

"With the new board, though there are some very well-known and important names over there, I worry that it mainly represents a particular faction in the vintage pen community. "

 

 

Both of these comments echo the concern I had when I first looked at FPB.....................

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one that noticed that.

 

 

John

Edited August 3, 2010 by sumgaikid

[RLTodd]

two cents worth...

 

Not real big on this digital storage of information methodology. Stories of the BBC Doomsday project, the photographers relying on CD storage of important photographic work and going unrecoverable, far too many tales of important accounting records going unreadable or wiped by unqualifiable people put in charge of archiving.

 

I think it would be better if people started writing and publishing books on archival paper and dirstributing same among the worlds libraries.

 

Especially the repairmen and collectors should start documenting the techniques and the details of the collections.