Montblanc 146 vs Sailor 1911 full size

[Stylo]

When did the Sailor 1911 line hit the market?

Their brochure says "25 years ago."

[Stylo]

In the hand these pens feel a bit different because of a different weight distribution of there filling mechanism.

The Sailor has a more even weight distribution while the 146 is (as with most modern MB's) bottom heavy due to the piston located at the bottom of the pen

 

....but since there is a 1911 with a piston filler ...

 

Your comments made me wonder whether there is any noticeable weight balance difference between the C/C and piston versions of the 1911. I recall reading somewhere that the piston version is really more of an embedded C/C, so perhaps the difference in weight distribution is not noticeable. But it would be nice to hear from someone who has done a side by side comparison.

[1000km]

That's hilarious!

 

My local B&M store told me that the Sailor 1911 was released prior to the MB Meisterstuck line. And as such, stated that the Meisterstuck is a copy of the Sailor line.... He said this with a straight face.

[OiRogers]

When did the Sailor 1911 line hit the market?

Their brochure says "25 years ago."

 

Exactly the information I was looking for... Thanks. :clap1:

 

Perhaps its time to load up a pocket with all my "birdsplat" pens and make a trip to that B&M again... perhaps look at a Sailor one more time.

 

In all seriousness though... if my 1911 had a piston fill to go with that wonderful Music nib, it'd would be one of my favorite pens... but as it stands, my MB pens with the Pison fillers are fast becoming my pens of choice.

[Parkman]

In all seriousness though... if my 1911 had a piston fill to go with that wonderful Music nib, it'd would be one of my favorite pens... but as it stands, my MB pens with the Pison fillers are fast becoming my pens of choice.

 

 

I agree. That would be one sweet pen!

[kingshion]

really a nice review!

but with a aspect of orient，I appreciate the nip of Sailor 1911. In fact I used to have both of them，and I beleve that the quality of Salior 1911 is as well as MB，what is more，the nip of 1911 is convenient for Japanese and Chinese characters。

Edited January 30, 2010 by kingshion

[R2ndom]

The Sailor 1911 came out in 1911 I believe.

[Neill78]

The Sailor 1911 came out in 1911 I believe.

 

1911 is the year Sailor was founded. The Profit was kind of a flagship/anniversary pen created much later. According to Penpedia the 1911 was released in 1982. The English version of Sailor's home page states "25 years ago" but I have a feeling that page has not been updated for a few years. I can't find any specific information about the original Profit on the Japanese page. Sailor, like many other Japanese companies, provides the company's historical timeline on their website, but the Profit's first appearance is not listed, which is strange, because the later special editions, 21k/24k nib editions, and Color editions are all listed. The year 1982 is not even on the timeline at all.

 

I own both a Profit (1911) and a Professional Gear (Sapporo) and as Montblanc doesn't really have much presence here, I had no idea that there was so much similarity to the MB 146 until reading another thread on this topic. I'm not surprised, however, and nobody else should be either. Japan's manufacturing industry has a long history of first imitating, then improving on the best designs of the West. If the year 1982 is correct, then this is also the period when Japanese electronics and automobiles began trouncing their Western counterparts and Japanese corporations were being accused of copying, utilizing cheap labor, unfair competition, etc etc, when in fact the problem was that Western corporations got lazy, stopped innovating, forgot about quality control and took their customers for granted. I like to look at the 1911 as a snapshot of that period of history. Since fountain pen designs don't change yearly like TVs and cars, I think it's a nice reminder -- and warning -- of where business success comes from. The same process is going on in Korea now, and China will be taking the reigns in a few short years.

 

Already the Chinese knock-off Parker Sonnets seem to have better writing qualities than the real thing, so all it will take is a new clip design and nib pattern and suddenly a new Asian boutique brand will be born.

[goodguy]

 

1911 is the year Sailor was founded. The Profit was kind of a flagship/anniversary pen created much later. According to Penpedia the 1911 was released in 1982. The English version of Sailor's home page states "25 years ago" but I have a feeling that page has not been updated for a few years. I can't find any specific information about the original Profit on the Japanese page. Sailor, like many other Japanese companies, provides the company's historical timeline on their website, but the Profit's first appearance is not listed, which is strange, because the later special editions, 21k/24k nib editions, and Color editions are all listed. The year 1982 is not even on the timeline at all.

 

I own both a Profit (1911) and a Professional Gear (Sapporo) and as Montblanc doesn't really have much presence here, I had no idea that there was so much similarity to the MB 146 until reading another thread on this topic. I'm not surprised, however, and nobody else should be either. Japan's manufacturing industry has a long history of first imitating, then improving on the best designs of the West. If the year 1982 is correct, then this is also the period when Japanese electronics and automobiles began trouncing their Western counterparts and Japanese corporations were being accused of copying, utilizing cheap labor, unfair competition, etc etc, when in fact the problem was that Western corporations got lazy, stopped innovating, forgot about quality control and took their customers for granted. I like to look at the 1911 as a snapshot of that period of history. Since fountain pen designs don't change yearly like TVs and cars, I think it's a nice reminder -- and warning -- of where business success comes from. The same process is going on in Korea now, and China will be taking the reigns in a few short years.

 

Already the Chinese knock-off Parker Sonnets seem to have better writing qualities than the real thing, so all it will take is a new clip design and nib pattern and suddenly a new Asian boutique brand will be born.

Very interesting take on this.

Thank you I enjoyed reading your post and I think I agrre with what you said.

[mitz009]

 

I own both a Profit (1911) and a Professional Gear (Sapporo) and as Montblanc doesn't really have much presence here, I had no idea that there was so much similarity to the MB 146 until reading another thread on this topic. I'm not surprised, however, and nobody else should be either. Japan's manufacturing industry has a long history of first imitating, then improving on the best designs of the West. If the year 1982 is correct, then this is also the period when Japanese electronics and automobiles began trouncing their Western counterparts and Japanese corporations were being accused of copying, utilizing cheap labor, unfair competition, etc etc, when in fact the problem was that Western corporations got lazy, stopped innovating, forgot about quality control and took their customers for granted. I like to look at the 1911 as a snapshot of that period of history. Since fountain pen designs don't change yearly like TVs and cars, I think it's a nice reminder -- and warning -- of where business success comes from. The same process is going on in Korea now, and China will be taking the reigns in a few short years.

 

Neill78,

 

Nice summary. I agree that the late 1970's and early 1980's were the era in which the Japanese companies outgrew their earlier reputation as producers of "cheap knockoffs" and came into their own making high quality items, particularly in the area of electronics and autos. Much of the literature evaluating the business climate of that era documents Japanese companies ability to take an existing product and refine it to the point that it was better than the original, so the design of the 1911 as derivative of the 146 makes sense. Interestingly, the generalization that the Japanese advanced beyond "western counterparts" i.e. the Americans AND Europeans is a bit inaccurate. No doubt the the Japanese companies far eclipsed what the Americans were doing during that era, but products from Europe were still considered of high quality and well made (and dare I say innovative), but generally much more expensive than their American (and Japanese) competitors. The American producers, on the other hand, definitely lost their way during that era. Thus the 146 vs 1911 comparison falls more into the category of "Toyota vs BMW" than "Toyota vs General Motors".

 

Things change, of course, and certainly the reputation of Japanese auto and electronics companies today is not quite what it was in the heyday of the 1980's and '90's. American companies have gone through a bit of a renaissance, and recent issues internationally have been more related to finances than production quality. European companies carry on their traditional reputation of quality, innovation and cost, which may be due to exchange rates as much as anything. Of course, when products are well made and well designed, we as consumers are the winners.

 

Anyway, your comments I think put in good historical perspective the birth and development of the 1911. Oftentimes, we lose sight of the historical context of current events and products. It's always good to remind us of the roots of things.

 

Personally, I love my 146's and 149's, and the standard Sailor nibs are hard to beat. I have a couple of the offbeat nibs (the Naginata Togi and the zoom) which I don't enjoy as much. I don't really understand the emotion that seem to surround the 1911 design. I enjoy the pen and it writes very well. I don't care that it looks like another pen. I have quite a few black pens and they don't look very different from each other. If you want something really different, you have to go buy a Dialog 3 or something similar.

 

Thanks for the excellent review, Goodguy.

 

Henry

[goodguy]

I don't really understand the emotion that seem to surround the 1911 design. I enjoy the pen and it writes very well. I don't care that it looks like another pen.

Thanks for the excellent review, Goodguy.

 

Henry

Well Henry to say that there are emotions surrounding the 1911 design would be a bit of an overstatement.

I think the 1911 is a super pen!!!

I also think it a review we need to show all sides of the pens in questions so other people that want to get one of these 2 pens should know, concider and then decide what they want.

Either the 146 or the 1911 are both excellent pens and you cant really go wrong with either.

 

Thank you for the kind words

[mitz009]

Goodguy,

 

Agree completely: both are great pens. I mention the "emotion about the design" because so many seem to be upset about it. Not so much your review, but the comments that follow. I'm frankly amazed that someone would write with a 1911, enjoy the nib and the feel of the pen, and then choose not to buy it because they find out it looks like the 146.

 

Henry

[goodguy]

Goodguy,

 

Agree completely: both are great pens. I mention the "emotion about the design" because so many seem to be upset about it. Not so much your review, but the comments that follow. I'm frankly amazed that someone would write with a 1911, enjoy the nib and the feel of the pen, and then choose not to buy it because they find out it looks like the 146.

 

Henry

Well design is a very important part of the pen and for many its as important as the nibs performance.

I can see myself getting a piston 1911 in the future. For me the thing that disturb the most in this pen is the lack of piston and the design is less of an issue but still the 146 is my favorite but I make no excuse here I am a MB man

[QM2]

Good comparison.

 

What I dislike about Sailor are the derivative design and the lack of internal filler.

 

What I like about Sailor are the very fine nibs and the cool anchor logo.

[Neill78]

Good comparison.

 

What I dislike about Sailor are the derivative design and the lack of internal filler.

 

What I like about Sailor are the very fine nibs and the cool anchor logo.

 

I can understand your point of view on the 1911 design. But you should also take a look at their later offerings, which are quite original. The 1911 was likely designed to be an affordable yet high-quality imitation Montblanc, but they have some amazingly original pens as well, most of which are not available here. Sailor also makes a variety of affordable pens, felt markers, and I think they were one of the first companies to offer a "brush pen," too.

 

In my earlier post I somewhat incorrectly lumped European companies in with American ones. I guess what I should have said is that European companies were not able to take advantage of the American market in an effective way, and that they really did (and still do) fail in customer service compared to Japanese companies. Replacement parts and repairs for many European products sold in North America are still painfully slow to obtain, while Japanese companies made after-sales-service part of their overseas strategy. I think that Japan's service is faltering in North America now, however.

[mitz009]

Good comparison.

 

What I dislike about Sailor are the derivative design and the lack of internal filler.

 

What I like about Sailor are the very fine nibs and the cool anchor logo.

 

I can understand your point of view on the 1911 design. But you should also take a look at their later offerings, which are quite original. The 1911 was likely designed to be an affordable yet high-quality imitation Montblanc, but they have some amazingly original pens as well, most of which are not available here. Sailor also makes a variety of affordable pens, felt markers, and I think they were one of the first companies to offer a "brush pen," too.

 

In my earlier post I somewhat incorrectly lumped European companies in with American ones. I guess what I should have said is that European companies were not able to take advantage of the American market in an effective way, and that they really did (and still do) fail in customer service compared to Japanese companies. Replacement parts and repairs for many European products sold in North America are still painfully slow to obtain, while Japanese companies made after-sales-service part of their overseas strategy. I think that Japan's service is faltering in North America now, however.

 

Neill78,

 

What does seem to be significantly different on the customer service side between European and Japanese Pen companies is quality control, based on feedback on these boards. As far as post sale service goes, the boards are littered with happy stories of quick turnaround and satisfactory service from European companies. Of course, the post sale support would be less necessary if the QC was better. I don't hear much about post sale issues with the Japanese pens, though I understand that Sailor in particular will not do nib exchanges. Pilot/Namiki, though not a post sale issue, limits product offerings in different markets i.e. some products available in Asia are unavailable in North America.

 

These are relatively broad generalizations, but they are based on feedback from these boards.

 

Henry

[LWB]

Great thread and comments. Enjoyed the reading. Couple of things struck me... 1st....I have a 1911 and it came with a piston filler...I am surprised that some don't. I think some of the Sailor products that stay in Asia are not quite the same as those shipped elsewhere (I am in malaysia).

 

2nd...one person made a comment about a Togi nib and another of Sailor's special nibs. I have tried the medium Togi's and found them also to be of limited use as they are soooo thick...then I tried and bought the mf Togi...of which I would recommend to anyone who likes juicey nibs that can be used for everyday writing and letters.

 

I bought the 1911 for the reason that I could get a fine nib...I would have to get an extra fine 146 to be about equal. I have found Montblanc to be very unaccommodating with nibs. Finding a MB fountain pen (that you want to buy) with anything but a medium is difficult here in this country. I have asked for them to order fine nibs (and othr nibs), and they will order, but MB gives no expected delivery date and say it could be 3 months or more. The special Sailor Togi nib took 5 working days.

 

Both pens, Sailor and MontBlanc are great pens...if you own either one you are someone who cares about their writing and are part of a small elite group of people.

Edited February 2, 2010 by LWB

[LWB]

Sorry...i duplicated the post somehow.

Edited February 2, 2010 by LWB

[Neill78]

 

Neill78,

 

What does seem to be significantly different on the customer service side between European and Japanese Pen companies is quality control, based on feedback on these boards. As far as post sale service goes, the boards are littered with happy stories of quick turnaround and satisfactory service from European companies. Of course, the post sale support would be less necessary if the QC was better. I don't hear much about post sale issues with the Japanese pens, though I understand that Sailor in particular will not do nib exchanges. Pilot/Namiki, though not a post sale issue, limits product offerings in different markets i.e. some products available in Asia are unavailable in North America.

 

These are relatively broad generalizations, but they are based on feedback from these boards.

 

Henry

 

Quality control is the biggest part of it. For sure, the best kind of post sale service is the kind that doesn't happen! I'm always surprised reading through the Italian forum and seeing over half the posts dealing with quality control, and the fact that getting a repair or replacement takes between 2 and 6 months (been there, done that)! Extending the topic beyond pens, we can see the same trend in other products as well: kitchen appliances, industrial hardware, etc. I was lucky enough to go to an appliance shop during my kitchen renovation where the clerk was very honest with me: "are you a serious cook? Then don't buy these (various European Models), because I can't get parts in less than 4 months if it breaks." It's not that the products are any worse, it's just that a family that cooks can't go for a month without a stove or a dishwasher. And we shouldn't have to!

 

Even if the contract service provider for Japanese products is terrible here in Canada in terms of quality of service/communication/politeness etc, I've never had an industrial parts order take more than a week or two. European companies (British especially, German ones usually excepted) can rarely even provide a schematic to identify the parts within that time. In some ways, this is also a QC issue, but one that involves the quality of processes and bureaucratic systems, I think. Again, broad generalizations, but this is how I think that, in general, Japan surpassed us. First, QC on the line, then backup systems in place if something goes wrong.

 

Of course I will be the first to say that well developed bureaucracy also usually results in a dearth of originality and difficulty in dealing with change. I think this is visible in pens and industry.

[LouisA]

Which one is better ?

 

If I don't involve feelings and make a cold choice I must (with a heavy heart as a MB guy) admit the 1911 wins here and that's mostly because of the nib.

Sailor's F nib is exactly the opposite of Sailor's M nibs.

Its springy, full of wonderful feedback and very smooth but not too smooth.

And that surpasses everything else for the FP fan.

 

Which one will I choose ?

 

For me I choose the MB and not just because I am a MB guy.

I have a real problem with a pen that doesn't have its own identity and I think its time Sailor will give us a new and exciting design for their bread and butter pen, something that compliment this amazing nib.

I would also add the CC filler as I tend not to use these pens but since there is a 1911 with a piston filler then I will have to get one.

I am afraid that a 1911 with a piston filler the 146 will find its even harder to win my heart.

 

Thanks for a great write up. Because of this I have decided NOT to purchase a MB 146 but rather to purchase a 1911 large size. I could care less how a pen fills, I write with the nib and not the filling system. I could also care less if people see me with a MB pen in my pocket or a Sailor. By your own admission the 1911 out performs the 146 so for me it is an easy decision.