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Slope Angles For All Scripts


caliken

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PLEASE SEE AMENDED POST #12 FOR THE ANGLE EXAMPLES.

 

I have noticed that there seems to be some confusion regarding the slope angles for various scripts and the best positioning of the paper relative to the work surface. I have come to realise that there is a simple answer which applies to all scripts. Here are four examples of the normally advocated writing slopes for four common scripts. These angles are given from the vertical.

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/Slopelines1.jpg

If, in each case, the paper is rotated anti-clockwise so that the slope line is at right angles to the working surface, the resulting paper position is comfortable for all scripts regardless of style or the nib used.

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/Slopelines2.jpg

I've tried this with every script I know; there is no ambiguity, and all downstrokes are directed downwards in a vertical line, towards the body.

As I say, this seems to me to be the most comfortable position for writing all scripts and does away with uncertain instructions like "angle the paper slightly counter clockwise" which could mean anything!

If, for example, flexible-nib writing at a different angle is preferred, draw the slope line and turn the page so that the line is pointing directly at your body.

There's nothing revolutionary here, just a simpler way of approaching the problem IMHO.

This system applies to right-handed writing and with an oblique pen for the Copperplate and Spencerian.

Opinions are welcome, as ever.

 

Ken

Edited by Ann Finley
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This is very helpful for people who can write 'straight-up' i.e. draw a vertical line with respect to the paper when the paper is oriented vertically with their bodies. Unfortunately I am not one of those people.

 

I find that the 'normal' position for me is when the paper is rotated counter-clockwise by between 10-15 degrees (i.e. -10 to -15 degrees from the vertical). I can draw a straight line bisecting the width of the sheet in this position using arm movement. My writing takes on a backward (left-wise) slant if I position the paper at 0 degrees.

 

I guess I can always subtract 10 degrees from the slant for a particular hand :-)

 

Salman

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I find that the 'normal' position for me is when the paper is rotated counter-clockwise by between 10-15 degrees (i.e. -10 to -15 degrees from the vertical). I can draw a straight line bisecting the width of the sheet in this position using arm movement. My writing takes on a backward (left-wise) slant if I position the paper at 0 degrees.

 

I guess I can always subtract 10 degrees from the slant for a particular hand :-)

 

Salman

I'm not quite sure what you mean. In the illustration, the paper is rotated 8 degrees counter-clockwise for Italic and 38 degrees counter-clockwise for Spencerian. For Blackletter the paper isn't rotated.

 

I found that in order to establish the correct position of the paper for Copperplate, with the nib pointing at the slope line, it was necessary to rotate the paper until the slope line was vertical. I then discovered that (for me) this principal also applied to all of the other scripts.

 

If you are more comfortable with an additional ten degrees movement counter-clockwise, I expect that it would work......although the slope for Spencerian and Copperpate would then be quite extreme!

 

 

Ken

Edited by caliken
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Hello caliken. If the angles are measured from vertical, than I think the angle in the blackletter figures should be 0 degrees.

I keep coming back to my Esterbrooks.

 

"Things will be great when you're downtown."---Petula Clark

"I'll never fall in love again."---Dionne Warwick

"Why, oh tell me, why do people break up, oh then turn around and make up?

I just came to see, you'd never do that to me, would you baby?"---Tina Turner

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Hello caliken. If the angles are measured from vertical, than I think the angle in the blackletter figures should be 0 degrees.

Your right, of course Enai. I got my horizontals and verticals confused! Thanks for the correction. :thumbup:

 

Ken

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I'm not quite sure what you mean. In the illustration, the paper is rotated 8 degrees counter-clockwise for Italic and 38 degrees counter-clockwise for Spencerian. For Blackletter the paper isn't rotated.

 

I found that in order to establish the correct position of the paper for Copperplate, with the nib pointing at the slope line, it was necessary to rotate the paper until the slope line was vertical. I then discovered that (for me) this principal also applied to all of the other scripts.

 

If you are more comfortable with an additional ten degrees movement counter-clockwise, I expect that it would work......although the slope for Spencerian and Copperpate would then be quite extreme!

 

 

Ken

 

I suspected I hadn't explain my position quite clearly - should've added the image!

 

The zero degree position for me would be when the paper is rotated -10 to -15 degrees from the vertical (as in Position 1 in the diagram). I would use that for writing Blackletter - if I knew how to write Blackletter ;-). If I use the slope line as my vertical then my letters slope to the left - I can correct it with conscious effort but it requires a lot of concentration and I don't find it helps me in any way.

 

BTW, I use this position for my regular handwriting as well.

 

post-31521-0-73799100-1290246107.png

 

I apologize for taking the conversation away from the main topic. I only wanted to mention this as others may place the paper askew like me and would benefit from your advice - as would I.

 

On another note, should I practice to write the straight scripts (Blackletter, Batarde etc.) with the paper vertical? Is there any advantage to placing the paper that way?

 

Salman

 

Edit: my head isn't really that big!

Edited by smk
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What an interesting approach, Caliken. Tying the angle at which the paper is set to the fundamental slope of the script itself makes a great deal of sense, and I'm looking forward to trying it with the scripts that I use.

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Salman,

 

No need to apologize.....I raised the suggestion, and should be able to supply answers!

 

You'll find that all instruction books on the subject, advocate placing the paper square on the table for upright scripts such as Uncial and Blackletter. The downstrokes are written vertically towards the writer. The advantage is that the nib edge will be maintained at the correct angle to the downstroke line - usually 45 degrees. If this feels really awkward, try moving your hand a couple of inches to the right, slightly away from your body.

 

All I'm suggesting is that if the vertically-placed slope line is applied to all styles, (as in the second illustration) consistency is easier to achieve. If the paper is turned for each of the scripts, so that the slope line is vertical, the nib edge will be automatically in the correct position for all the different edged-nibbed scripts, as all downstrokes will be written down the page vertically.....give it a try!

 

It's a little different for pointed nib scripts such as Spencerian where the nib must point at the slope line for the tines to open evenly on downstrokes. Once again, the slope line turned vertically is ideal for hand position and ease of writing (with an oblique penholder).

 

Whilst none of this is carved in stone and obviously whatever is comfortable for ease of writing is fine, it is worth the effort IMO to try the above, as better proportioned and evenly-balanced writing will be much easier to achieve.

 

If you do give this a try....please continue to post your opinions.

 

Ken

Edited by caliken
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I dunno, Ken, your 35deg line looks a lot more like 45deg, but maybe the illustration is a little off. The idea I get, and do use. With a little more twist, I can use a crowquill for longhand, but I'm writing practically sideways!

Pelikan 120 : Lamy 2000 : Sheaffer PFM III : Parker DuoFold Jr : Hero 239 : Pilot Vanishing Point : Danitrio Cum Laude : Esterbrook LJ : Waterman's 12 and an unknown lever-filler : Lambert Drop-fill : Conway Stewart 388

 

MB Racing Green : Diamine Sapphire Blue , Registrar's : J. Herbin violet pensée , café des îles : Noodler's Baystate Blue : Waterman Purple, Florida Blue

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I dunno, Ken, your 35deg line looks a lot more like 45deg, but maybe the illustration is a little off. The idea I get, and do use. With a little more twist, I can use a crowquill for longhand, but I'm writing practically sideways!

Once again, I've screwed up with my angles! I'll get the illustrations removed and (hopefully) replaced with correct ones!

Thanks for the observation.

 

Ken

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Hi Ken, the given angles were measured from horizontal except for the italic. So they were correct in that sense. :)

I keep coming back to my Esterbrooks.

 

"Things will be great when you're downtown."---Petula Clark

"I'll never fall in love again."---Dionne Warwick

"Why, oh tell me, why do people break up, oh then turn around and make up?

I just came to see, you'd never do that to me, would you baby?"---Tina Turner

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Hi Ken, the given angles were measured from horizontal except for the italic. So they were correct in that sense. :)

Thanks Enai. I have amended them and am posting them here, as it's too late for me to amend the OP.

I'm trying to arrange for the removal of the erroneous examples.

(have you ever been sorry that you started something?!)

 

These are the corrected angles from the vertical -

 

Spencerian 38 degrees

Italic 8 degrees

Blackletter 0 degrees

Copperplate 35 degrees

THESE ARE THE AMENDED EXAMPLES - PLEASE IGNORE THE ORIGINAL POST

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/4angledpages1600.jpg

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/4angledpages2650.jpg

Edited by caliken
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A good idea.

 

I've always found that rotating the paper a little to suit, and moving IT as you get closer to the bottom of the page, helps to keep your arm moving in a range of motion that's right for you.

 

The right angle for vertical lines and the right area in front of you so that you're not stretching too far away or scrunching up too close to your body or the edge of the dektop.

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What an interesting approach, Caliken. Tying the angle at which the paper is set to the fundamental slope of the script itself makes a great deal of sense, and I'm looking forward to trying it with the scripts that I use.

Thanks Italicist.

Please post your further opinions when you've done your testing.

 

Ken

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I'm going to try this, too. It's an interesting solution.

 

Ken, the mistakes in the original plots were minor (even with the mistakes, I still got what you were trying to say), and I didn't mind at all. I think you were just testing us if we were paying attention to what you were saying in your post. :)

Edited by Enai

I keep coming back to my Esterbrooks.

 

"Things will be great when you're downtown."---Petula Clark

"I'll never fall in love again."---Dionne Warwick

"Why, oh tell me, why do people break up, oh then turn around and make up?

I just came to see, you'd never do that to me, would you baby?"---Tina Turner

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I think you were just testing us if we were paying attention to what you were saying in your post. :)

Thanks for letting me off the hook! However, I still feel like a bit of an idiot - screwing up basic maths! :doh:

 

Ken

Edited by caliken
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What an interesting approach, Caliken. Tying the angle at which the paper is set to the fundamental slope of the script itself makes a great deal of sense, and I'm looking forward to trying it with the scripts that I use.

Thanks Italicist.

Please post your further opinions when you've done your testing.

 

Ken

 

 

You're most welcome. And my further opinion after a few days of testing is that your method works quite well. My slope (with italic, at least) seems to be a good deal more consistent without any real effort on my part; when I hold the paper at a 0 degree angle, my slope always wanders around a bit, despite careful attention. Although the results certainly aren't perfect yet (demonstrating that I still need to take greater care), achieving better results than usual with less effort than usual is a welcome advance! I'm thinking about cutting a very thin plywood wedge that will hold the paper at the right angle on the edge of my writing slope, in fact.

 

Thanks for your helpful suggestions, Ken!

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Today's practice session tested a couple of new things: a different paper, 122 gsm HD:P inkjet bond from Boise; and the use of caliken's paper angles. I printed onto the new paper my usual letter guidelines, but removed the angle guidelines. Then I simply set the paper at the proper angle under my hand and away I wrote. I'm quite pleased with the result, both in terms of the much superior paper, and in terms of a reasonably consistent slope. Not perfect, but good enough for starters.

 

Happy Thanksgiving, all!

 

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii241/bigstickpilot/Bulletin%20Board/FPN101125a.jpg

Pelikan 120 : Lamy 2000 : Sheaffer PFM III : Parker DuoFold Jr : Hero 239 : Pilot Vanishing Point : Danitrio Cum Laude : Esterbrook LJ : Waterman's 12 and an unknown lever-filler : Lambert Drop-fill : Conway Stewart 388

 

MB Racing Green : Diamine Sapphire Blue , Registrar's : J. Herbin violet pensée , café des îles : Noodler's Baystate Blue : Waterman Purple, Florida Blue

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