Is Lion & Pen Gone For Good?

[pen2paper]

I'm sad to see L&P gone. But I never posted enough to get into the "locked room."

 

George's post about the "personality history" of these boards was quite fascinating and sad.

 

I'd just like to add: It's not enough to preserve the history whatever the format. There also needs to be a way to encourage new people to take up the history. Not all of us can get to pen shows despite the strong interest.

 

I can count on one hand the people who have actively encouraged my interest in pen history or answered direct questions for information or guidance. And so I end up engaging very little with you "guys."

 

If David Nishimura ever wanted to teach an online class on research: I'd even pay somethin' for it.

 

Kind regards,

Julie

 

 

Julie;

 

Is there something you are interested in researching? Much of it is asking the right questions or thinking them up in the first place. I've spent years researching Boston Fountain Pen Company. It takes a lot of time to assimulate information which often leads to new questions. I'm pretty much out of leads now but that doesn't mean a new lead won't pop up soon. Anyway, what do you want to research? I find it the funest part of collecting and most rewarding. I'll also tip my cap to David in that he is one of the few that does the writing right he sticks to the facts and I've looked at some of his stuff really hard and it stands up. Every book out there to date does not stand up to even the lightest scrutiny so we need researchers that back up what they write.

 

Roger W.

The Boston Fountain Pen Company posts that flew back and forth here were fascinating!

Though all of you involved in scouting details, could have done this backchannel.. the whole process, and your excitement, was beneficial for all of us.. allows us to develop an eye for what is out there 'in the wild'..

[rhr]

Every book out there to date does not stand up to even the lightest scrutiny, so we need researchers that back up what they write.

Hi everyone,

 

It looks like there are some people out there who are ready to discuss this topic.

 

Julie, I'm sad to see L&P gone, too. But I saved everything I posted over there, so it isn't all lost. And like Zaarin, I, too, am paranoid about "the probabilities of its near-simultaneous total destruction", so I put "off-line backups in ten locations in ten copies per location", well, close to that, in order to make the chance of that happening "almost infinitesimally small".

 

Lovemy51, I hope I wasn't the one who treated you as if you were a common criminal. I apologize for that in any case, because no one should be treated poorly on any public pen message board.

 

And you're right, Julie and pen2paper, perhaps it's time to encourage new people to catch the research and history bug, and time for an online class on research, and maybe a free one, even. A really good start can be made by getting the "textbooks" for the course and reading them. Get up to speed with everyone else, so that we're all talking about the same things. Find as many of the books and magazines and newsletters as you can, whether online, or in public and university libraries, or in your own personal libraries, if you can afford them.

 

Over on L&P, Roger proposed a "Collector Code, a code of ethics for pen collectors", a set of ten rules for fountain pen restoration called GARM, Generally Accepted Restoration Methods. For those who don't remember them, here they are:

 

1. Do no harm.

2. Restoration techniques must be reversible.

3. Reblacking of hard rubber has no purpose in collecting.

4. Replating of gold-filled trim has no purpose in collecting.

5. [Collectible] vintage pens should not be over polished.

6. Only original parts should be used in restoration of hardware.

7. Nibs should not be reground from their original shape.

8. A filling system should not be replaced with anything but the same type of filling system. [Collectible] vintage pens are not to be converted to different filling mechanisms.

9. Even though a restoration method may very well make a pen functional, if it is not in keeping with the pen's original condition and function, it is not to be done to a collectible [vintage] pen.

10. Know your pen. Find out if this is a rare example that should be preserved for posterity, or a relatively common model that can be experimented on. If you have never heard of a particular name, brand, or style of pen before, find out as much as you can before proceeding.

 

Well, perhaps it's time for a new GARM for pen research, a GARM-2, Generally Accepted Research Methods. I have a few already that come to mind, if people are willing to entertain a serious discussion at this time.

 

George Kovalenko.

 

Edited August 5, 2010 by rhr

[sumgaikid]

Every book out there to date does not stand up to even the lightest scrutiny, so we need researchers that back up what they write.

Hi everyone,

 

It looks like there are some people out there who are ready to discuss this topic.

 

Julie, I'm sad to see L&P gone, too. But I saved everything I posted over there, so it isn't all lost. And like Zaarin, I, too, am paranoid about "the probabilities of its near-simultaneous total destruction", so I put "off-line backups in ten locations in ten copies per location", well, close to that, in order to make the chance of that happening "almost infinitesimally small".

 

Lovemy51, I hope I wasn't the one who treated you as if you were a common criminal. I apologize for that in any case, because no one should be treated poorly on any public pen message board.

 

And you're right, Julie and pen2paper, perhaps it's time to encourage new people to catch the research and history bug, and time for an online class on research, and maybe a free one, even. A really good start can be made by getting the "textbooks" for the course and reading them. Get up to speed with everyone else, so that we're all talking about the same things. Find as many of the books and magazines and newsletters as you can, whether online, or in public and university libraries, or in your own personal libraries, if you can afford them.

 

Over on L&P, Roger proposed a "Collector Code, a code of ethics for pen collectors", a set of ten rules for fountain pen restoration called GARM, Generally Accepted Restoration Methods. For those who don't remember them, here they are:

 

1. Do no harm.

2. Restoration techniques must be reversible.

3. Reblacking of hard rubber has no purpose in collecting.

4. Replating of gold-filled trim has no purpose in collecting.

5. Vintage pens should not be over polished.

6. Only original parts should be used in restoration of hardware.

7. Nibs should not be reground from their original shape.

8. A filling system should not be replaced with anything but the same type of filling system. Vintage pens are not to be converted to different filling mechanisms.

9. Even though a restoration method may very well make a pen functional, if it is not in keeping with the pen's original condition and function, it is not to be done to a collectible pen.

10. Know your pen. Find out if this is a rare example that should be preserved for posterity, or a relatively common model that can be experimented on. If you have never heard of a particular name, brand, or style of pen before, find out as much as you can before proceeding.

 

Well, perhaps it's time for a new GARM for pen research, a GARM-2, Generally Accepted Research Methods. I have a few already that come to mind, if people are willing to entertain a serious discussion at this time.

 

George Kovalenko.

 

 

I would be interested in finding out what level of "overpolished" would be considered overpolished. I realize that

everyone might have different ideas as to what they consider to be "overpolished",but I feel that leaving a vintage

pen in its rough state with scratches and bite marks when it was fished out of the desk drawer doesn't qualify as

vintage. If it's understood that it looks old,what's wrong with giving it its original look back? It's like finding and buying

a somewhat rare auto under a tarp in someone's barn and deciding that to keep it "vintage" you'll get it running,

but to fill in the rust holes, replace the cracked windshield or wash and polish it would take away from its "vintage"

look.

 

BTW,I also have no problem with re-blackening a HR pen if it needs it.

 

 

John

[rhr]

I apologize for quoting the GARM rules here specifically. I should have realized that they had the potential for derailing this discussion. As I recall, that thread was one of the longest topics and most-disputed issues on L&P, so if any members here have the inclination to rehash that issue, may I humbly suggest that they continue discussing the restoration rules over at the "Repair" forum, and see how welcome that topic is over there. ;~)

 

George Kovalenko.

 

[ToasterPastry]

Research = money.

 

How so? Over the weekend, someone tried to sell me a Pioneer black-and-cream fountain pen for $75, saying that it was an off-brand of Wahl-Eversharp. I pointed out that actually it was an off-brand by the David Kahn Company, most notable for the Wearever fountain pen. You could see the initials "D-K" right there on the clip. The price then came down considerably.

 

Unfortunately, that pen is probably worth $75, even though we both knew that he didn't originally pay anywhere close to that. But the intrinsic nature of things in the collector market make certain things like Wahl-Eversharp to be high-end brands and other things like Wearever to be low-end brands. What he didn't know was that Pioneer was considered the high-end brand of the David Kahn Company, whereas Wearever was considered the utilitarian end of it. But that's what research buys you. We live in a world where the collector market drives the price of certain goods. I hate seeing people get taken, and I hate when people take me. Research, and easily retrievable research, is the great equalizer in the marketplace.

 

I propose that the Lion & Pen articles be set up on a new site, perhaps an off-shoot of this one. (Should it be a pay-site?) I personally have written some good (or at least what I thought was good) articles for this site, only to have them buried by a mountain of crappe of worthless posts (I stand guilty of that crime as well). Good articles, good history should not only be archived; it should be easily accessible. This is a wonderful site. But it has become a victim of its own success.

[pen2paper]

Yes have enjoyed your posts TP..

earlier tried to hunt down some Wirt info..

hopefully the board can be tweaked some to allow for study/reference area... and be searchable.

that Is an inquiry, btw.

 

though I am a purist in regards caring for antique/vintage objects.. Garm 2 is practical.. evidence BuzzJ's restoration of the Parker posted just yesterday.

 

 

[simp]

Here here. It really shouldn't be that difficult. What we need is to have more enduring organizations "own" the project, and establish a reasonable backup process.

 

I'd just like to add: It's not enough to preserve the history whatever the format. There also needs to be a way to encourage new people to take up the history.

 

In terms of the question of the preservation of digital data, I think these points are key. Data of any kind - physical or digital - gets lost when people stop treating it with care and lose interest in its survival.

 

I have all my significant personal computer data backed up on five external HDs in two separate locations (I plan to make that three as soon as possible, with at least six drives). If you take the latter version, you're looking at a probability of total loss by external destruction comparable to the simultaneous burning down/looting of three separate libraries. There is, of course, the issue of hardware failure of various kinds, which reduces the probabilities substantially compared to good non-digital media, but even then once you have enough backups on a few sites the chances of it happening multiply at once become very small.

 

Imagine what that gets to on the scale of a larger organisation (say the digital equivalent of a library). You put off-line backups in ten locations in ten copies per location - the probabilities of near-simultaneous total failure or destruction become almost infinitessimally small.

 

You're left with the problem of format obsolescence - and actually here the impermanence of digital hardware might ironically help. When a single backup fails (or its format goes within a hundred miles of becoming obsolete) you replace it and reestablish it with new equipment. Provided you keep doing this, only total broad-scale catastrophe can have an effect. Care is everything.

 

Of course, there is the issue of electricity. You can't get round that, and it is catastrophic in principle.

 

Sorry but I don't think the problem here is about backups, or data loss. I'm quite sure that the owner of Lions & Pen and his provider can easily recover all the data. And some people here also stated they have at least a good part of that data.

 

The problem is that all the other people don't have them, and anyone that could be interested in it in the future will not have them. The main problem is that only the owner can legally republish that data, so also if you have a complete mirror, and all the backups you want, you can't republish or share it (at least not in public).

 

The general problem is that when a site, a forum or anything is run with the exclusive ownership by a person/organization, then that person or organization can stop or close it for any reason. When this happens (like it did for Lions & Pen), that information, also if it was publicly accessible, is lost for all the people. You perhaps can take back what you put, and re-share that, but just that, not the other parts.

 

So I don't believe that giving all data/informations/knowledge/etc to some kind of trusted organization/person/people is the solution, because he/it should die, close, go mad, or you can loose (or not have) trust in them anymore (and it happens frequently, at least in my experience).

 

The main reason I choose to start my wiki (and then also a forum for italian speaking people) is that I wanted to avoid this. So I choose to use for all the contents (photos, articles, scans) the same philosophy used by Wikipedia: anyone is free to use, copy, modify, republish them at the only condition that these freedom are preserved and given to others. The same stand for the italian forum, so also the article and photos published there are reusable by anyone at the same conditions.

 

This way anyone not trusting or liking me can take a mirror and republish everything also if I decide that fountain pens are evil and must be erased from the world. And the information will be preserved also by these copies, because the republication right is persistent. I didn't used Wikipedia directly only because I'm concerned with quality, and I wanted to set some different guidelines on what is in the wiki. And Wikipedia cannot be used to have a forum. But the license on contents can be applied also to forums.

 

Probably I'm the last person to speak here, because I'm quite new to fountain pens, and because I have a poor knowledge of people and organization involved, so I can miss a lot of things. But I think that this way you don't need either to have a centralized or a single site/web/forum. The big advantage of digital information against material one (book/papers and so on) is that they can be copied/shared at almost no cost and easily distributed, so when you have the permission to share there is no reason to have that stored in a single point or to give it to a single entity.

 

Anyway I already stated that I can give to anyone asking a complete dump of fountainpen.it (photos and scans included), so FPN, PCA or anyone can take it. The only attached string is the request (made by the license) that all the contents have to stay sharable the same way they are now. I'm also studying a way to have the whole dump directly published on the internet and available for downloading without having to ask me. Up to now I could not do this because it's too big and (it's several Gigabyte) and I cannot exceed my server bandwith limit publishing it there.

 

Regards

Simone

[rhr]

I would be interested in finding out what level of "overpolished" would be considered overpolished.

John, it wasn't my choice of words. The rules I quoted were composed by a committee of participants in that thread, but I would take it mean not polishing a pen so much that information in the imprint is removed, or the crispness of sharp edges is blurred, or the overall design is compromised. That said, you have to read the rules as a whole and not single out one rule, or one word in one rule. These are rules for collectible pens, not beat-up old user pens. The other rules cover the issues you raise as well. They speak about knowing your pen, and finding out whether it is a rare example that should be preserved for posterity.

 

By the way, I also have no problem with reblackening a pen, but again, only if it is a beat up user, not a collectible example. But then the problem arises as to whether the improvement in color or polish will lead to a fraudulent misrepresentation of the pen's condition when it is resold, not necessarily by the one who did the reblacking or polishing, but sometime later down the road, by a subsequent owner.

 

George Kovalenko.

 

[Ray-Vigo]

This thread has some very, very good points that implicate not only this site but also more general problems on the internet. The point about the noise level is well put (I think it was David N who said it). There's a lot of information on FPN, but when you go to do a search what you're looking for is buried in quick-mention posts and more novice level questions ("how much is this pen worth?" and "what is this?" come to mind, for example). It's not that those are bad things, they just tend to bog down more detailed history searches when you're looking for one specific piece of research or you're looking for a comprehensive tear-down of the pen for restoration. Whoever said FPN "is good at what it does" hit the nail on the head-- it's a great generalist site. But it's harder than a more narrowly focused board to find that one obscure or deep-down tidbit. (To come full circle here): that is one of the plights of many internet websites.

Edited August 5, 2010 by Ray-Vigo

[sumgaikid]

I would be interested in finding out what level of "overpolished" would be considered overpolished.

John, it wasn't my choice of words. The rules I quoted were composed by a committee of participants in that thread, but I would take it mean not polishing a pen so much that information in the imprint is removed, or the crispness of sharp edges is blurred, or the overall design is compromised. That said, you have to read the rules as a whole and not single out one rule, or one word in one rule. These are rules for collectible pens, not beat-up old user pens. The other rules cover the issues you raise as well. They speak about knowing your pen, and finding out whether it is a rare example that should be preserved for posterity.

 

By the way, I also have no problem with reblackening a pen, but again, only if it is a beat up user, not a collectible example. But then the problem arises as to whether the improvement in color or polish will lead to a fraudulent misrepresentation of the pen's condition when it is resold, not necessarily by the one who did the reblacking or polishing, but sometime later down the road, by a subsequent owner.

 

George Kovalenko.

 

 

George,my apologies--I didn't mean for my questions to sound antagonistic. I understand that most of us as collectors or collector/users

would think that overpolishing would be just as you describe,and that proper polishing would fall somewhere in the middle between not

enough polishing(or perhaps,cleaning) or going overboard as in your description. I also realize that these are another's rules(however

subjective they are) and pertain to collectible examples. The problem that I see is that the terms "collectible " and "beat-up user" are

antonimic in nature,and yet subjectively mean the same thing. A collection can subsist of beat-up users,and a beat-up user can be part

of a collection as a collectible(which collection can also contain prime NOS or mint examples). Semantics yes,but the subjectivness of

the rules,IMHO,would lean towards top-quality unused examples which would make the rules redundant as long as the pen(s) in question

are never used.

 

BTW,I should clarify my statement about re-blackening: I would have no problem re-blackening either a top-shelf collectible or a beater.

Were I to sell a collectible BHR that was re-blackened,I would state that in my description and price it accordingly. If the person that I sell

that pen to sells it to someone else and doesn't put that in the description,that is out of my hands.

 

 

John

[Rick Krantz]

I dunno. I was a early member at Lion and Pen, and posted frequently. I enjoyed the people over there, and the exchange of information on the site. It had a terrfic amount of information available.

 

I am also an advisor/moderator at FPB, David I's site...

 

I think people have a tendancy to let personalities get in the way, way too much in this hobby.

 

were not all gonna get along, but at the same time, for the betterment and advancement of the hobby, wouldn't it be worth it to put all the differences aside? I think each and every one of us could learn from one another, and the overall benefit is far greater than the personality conflicts.

 

Each and every person has their own approach to the hobby.

 

I think someone can post on all the sites, indifferent to the core group of followers, and be beneficial to the entire hobby. There are things I liked about L&P, there are things I like about FPN, things i like about Zoss, things I like about Pentrace, and FPB. Each site has a lot to offer the end user.

 

As far as I know, there exists no list of anyone that is not welcome on FPB.

 

It does sadden me to hear that the wealth of knowledge on L&P is no longer available to the casual user. That is a devastating loss of material and research.

 

In the end, I guess I just get tired of all the bickering and cliques, arguing and fighting. I'm just not going to buy into that anymore.

[pen2paper]

BTW,I should clarify my statement about re-blackening: I would have no problem re-blackening either a top-shelf collectible or a beater.

 

[[[[Were I to sell a collectible BHR that was re-blackened,I would state that in my description]]]]] and price it accordingly. If the person that I sell

that pen to sells it to someone else and doesn't put that in the description,that is out of my hands.

 

 

John

Brackets added.. John liked this.. allows buyer to make , or not make, informed purchase..

Also new collectors should learn about past, & present restoration processes, then formulate their own opinon..

 

I'm generally able to see whether a brass picture button has been tumbled, from missing patina, tints, high shine areas. (or flitzed simied etc) But, some of the newer methods of chemical/machine buffing can make rusted 18-19thC steels Look pristine.. though they were rusted, and will Still have corrosion where process doesn't reach... these I want to know about, and pay accordingly. original mineral pastes count too. Stating that, there are Some buttons that are so rare/important, that I would by them anyway, but the price must reflect the repair. In other words, Candid counts.

[lovemy51]

 

Lovemy51, I hope I wasn't the one who treated you as if you were a common criminal. I apologize for that in any case, because no one should be treated poorly on any public pen message board.

 

 

George Kovalenko.

 

 

no, i don't think it was you. no need for apologies!!

 

take care!

[rhr]

I think people have a tendency to let personalities get in the way, way too much in this hobby....For the betterment and advancement of the hobby, wouldn't it be worth it to put all the differences aside?...In the end, I guess I just get tired of all the bickering and cliques, arguing and fighting. I'm just not going to buy into that anymore.

Rick, I agree with what you say. I think it's the right attitude, and one that we should all espouse. But it takes two to tango. For the last few years I've used the "tit for tat" method. It's a highly efficient mathematical strategy in game theory. To use this strategy effectively one initially cooperates, then responds in kind to the other person's actions. If other people are cooperative, then I am cooperative. If they are not cooperative, then I usually avoid them. Like you, I'm just not going to buy into that bickering attitude anymore.

 

George Kovalenko.

 

[jniforat]

Now the error message is no longer "account suspended" -- instead, it looks like it's totally dead. I sent a Facebook note to Ron, offering to do anything necessary to revive/maintain the site, but no response.

 

I can't say I'm very pleased about this. A lot of people put considerable effort into sharing their knowledge there, in the expectation that it would be maintained and archived.

 

hopefully he will let you revive/maintain the site.

[sombrueil]

I am a member of another, utterly unrelated to pens, online (and real) community, which does not merely contain difficult individuals but also unalterably-opposed factions and extraordinarily unpleasant cliques. As a newcomer (read: a naive fool) to this community I saw the need for a "online home" which would function as an announcement board, classified and display ad board, and a permanent library. I quickly realized that the only possible way to offer this was to retain all the control myself, as a neutral party. That was six years ago. I am still managing that website, which has become quite large and popular. There are still no open forums attached to it (although these exist elsewhere, in fact I am the admin of one); I am too afraid of what would happen (noise would be a best-case scenario).

 

I research, copy, format, and archive everything pertinent I can find in any medium, so that it is available to anyone with a computer -- most information about this topic is in out-of-print books or long-gone magazines or in personal collections somewhere. It is an ever-ongoing project.

 

Although there is an international club (perhaps like PCA), it is run by volunteers with limited time/skills/interests/energy, and a site like mine, which takes so many hours of work, including long patient negotiations with old people with cardboard boxes of photographs halfway across the country, just would not ever happen.

 

I haven't even been able to find a partner in this enterprise, although I have advisors. Nor have I, despite all my efforts, been able to avoid antagonizing those who adhere to the "if you don't hate whom we hate, we hate you" school of thought.

 

I guess my points here are 1. the kind of site you all seem to be wishing for is not a forum per se. It is an archive site. An archive needs an archivist. Someone who reads an interesting thread on FPN and asks the most knowledgeable poster/s if they would care to write a paper on the subject for the archive. And then bugs them until they do, edits it and sends it back for review, and then uploads it to a site with a search function and table of contents that is continually tweaked.

 

Forums, by their nature, are inclusive, and hence full of noise. They are also by their nature ever-vulnerable to becoming personality cults, even benign ones. FPN is VERY unusual in that it has evaded this fate so far. The admins deserve full credit for this.

 

The PCA might be a much more congenial and workable place for an archive than my example club (getting anything real done is practically impossible there). But what is needed to make it work is an archivist, or a few who work together well. These are the people who can approach those who have the material (written by them, or others) and coax it out of them, and format it accessibly.

[Vintagepens]

Excellent points -- and very much on-target, I think, regarding the differences between the task of collecting, compiling, and archiving, and the task of maintaining and moderating a discussion board.

 

I have just been informed that Lion & Pen will be up again shortly: that Ron Dutcher is still AWOL, but that some of the other moderators there have persuaded Invision to allow them to pay the overdue maintenance bills.

 

As for standards for historical research, I don't think we pen historians need to reinvent the wheel. On the other hand, since so many of us are not trained historians, those of us who are might do well to give more guidance. I've been meaning to put up a guide for would-be pen history researchers on my site for some time; perhaps it's now time to get to work on it, even if it will necessarily remain a work in progress for quite a while to come.

[Vintagepens]

L & P is still not up.

We'll see.

I was just passing along what I was emailed.

[rhr]

I looked at the IP.Board pricing. It's available in two different licenses, depending upon the support needs. The Standard license is a $150 one-time cost plus renewal fees of $25 every 6 months. The Business license is $350 plus $50 renewal fees every 6 months. The difference is in the response and turnaround times, 5 business days and same day respectively. So assuming the fees have been paid for a Standard license, it should be at most 5 days from then before the board is reinstated.

 

George Kovalenko.

 

[Ray-Vigo]

This sounds good, glad to know it will be back.