Radite (Celluloid) Discoloration

[Reefallo]

I now have a handful of celluloid Sheaffers, and the oldest has very obvious barrel discoloration (but an amazing writer, so who cares). On the striated colors, I don't see the same type of discoloration, and it got me to wondering: will ALL colors of celluloid discolor, if you keep inking the pen and using it?

 

FWIW, I have other celluloid pens from other companies, and those look just fine, too. So I'm also wondering: is it just Sheaffer?

[Lazard 20]

Possible info: Vapor of Alcohol penetrates the layers of celluloid. Shellac is pigments color ambar -ambaring?- diluted in alcohol.

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/257863-jade-green-ambaring/

Edited May 10, 2014 by Lazard 20

[Florida Blue]

Certain colors of celluloid seem more prone to discoloration than others like jade and black and pearl. Parker Duofolds are known to discolor pretty badly as well. The ink isn't what primarily discolored the plastic, but rather the rubber sacs. Overtime they emit sulfur gas, which darkens and discolors the celluloid. Ink can discolor translucent plastic like that in ink windows in Sheaffer sections and the barrels of Sheaffer vacuum-fil and Parker Vacumatics. Also, those translucent plastics can amber as they age.

 

Apparently, a good way to prevent further discoloration is to use silicone sacs over rubber. I put a silicone sac in a Lapis Duofold to prevent the blue from darkening.

 

Edited to change latex to silicone.

Edited May 10, 2014 by Florida Blue

[Lazard 20]

This Onoto vacuum filler never had sac but have ambaring in zones threads.

 

http://s30.postimg.org/a411akw2p/PIC_1010.jpg

 

Practically in all celluloids of the time we can see ambaring

Edited May 10, 2014 by Lazard 20

[Lazard 20]

http://s23.postimg.org/pjhprj4h7/image.jpg

http://s17.postimg.org/42jqosfgv/Sin_t_tulo_2_copia.jpg

http://s29.postimg.org/csi1vcn3r/Sin_t_tulo_1_copia.jpg

[kirchh]

Apparently, a good way to prevent further discoloration is to use latex sacs over rubber. I put a latex sac in a Lapis Duofold to prevent the blue from darkening.

 

Did you mean silicone?

 

--Daniel

[kirchh]

Possible info: Vapor of Alcohol penetrates the layers of celluloid. Shellac is pigments color ambar -ambaring?- diluted in alcohol.

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/257863-jade-green-ambaring/

 

So you are suggesting that during the brief period that the shellac is drying -- a few hours, perhaps a day or two at most -- the alcohol that is evaporating is bound to shellac particles which are small enough to penetrate the celluloid, and that the ambering actually occurs within a few hours or days of the pens' assembly? And that the large areas of ambering seen in vintage pens are simply large quantities of shellac that were carried into the celluloid right after the pens were put together?

 

This should be very easy for you to demonstrate: Simply put a fresh sac on a section, and install it in a celluloid pen. Within a couple of days, the barrel should turn amber.

 

--Daniel

Edited May 10, 2014 by kirchh

[Florida Blue]

 

Did you mean silicone?

 

--Daniel

 

Yes, I mean't silicone not latex. Thanks for catching that.

[Lazard 20]

Shellac is color amber and fpens take ambering, with the passage of time, sunlight and perhaps the sulfur of rubber sac, by shellac effects (alcohol + pigments amber). At one point in the 30s I dont see shellac and I dont see mentionable ambering.

 

Exactly and only I want to say that these cels were porous to vapors, that I've opened hundreds of fountain pens lever system, that I've seen ambering in areas of thread top cap where wasnt neither sac nor ink and I've ever seen more or less shellac and that the more shellac had was more ambering fpen.

 

I also look very good and very respectable other views on the matter. It is not about fighting for any awards. My point of view about shellac and ambering is so; another simple point of view.

 

http://s29.postimg.org/q9flw22xz/ambaring.jpg

 

Footnote. The sac could to be almost irrelevant because it takes years to break down and we have constancy of ambering before the '30s.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Lazard 20

[RMN]

By the way: the English word is Amber, French Ambre. I think Ambar (with a) is Spanish...

 

 

D.ick

[Lazard 20]

"This should be very easy for you to demonstrate."

 

Not within hours but within 3 months this experiment I have already shown. I upload this photo newly.

Note that ambering of plastic capsule reaches not only the contact zones (A-threaded barrel and nozzle section) but also throughout (B and C zones-rest of the barrel and lower zone cap). In this areas B and C of less ambering only could get there by vapors or fumes shellac. Ambering and its distribution, as clouds, appears to have occurred in gaseous form.

 

http://s27.postimg.org/5th4vsbtv/image.jpg

Edited May 11, 2014 by Lazard 20

[kirchh]

"This should be very easy for you to demonstrate."

 

Not within hours but within 3 months this experiment I have already shown. I upload this photo newly.

 

Note that ambering of plastic capsule reaches not only the contact zones (A-threaded barrel and nozzle section) but also throughout (B and C zones-rest of the barrel and lower zone cap). In this areas B and C of less ambering only could get there by vapors or fumes shellac. Ambering and its distribution, as clouds, appears to have occurred in gaseous form.

 

http://s27.postimg.org/5th4vsbtv/image.jpg

 

The rate of vaporization of the alcohol in shellac declines over time. Therefore, according to your theory of ambering, the rate of deepening of the ambering would decline over time, with the greatest amount of ambering taking place within the first few hours as the vast majority of the alcohol evaporates. Therefore, if ambering in celluloid is due to vaporization of the alcohol in the shellac used, pens would be ambered significantly within hours, and certainly days, of assembly.

 

Correct?

 

--Daniel

[Lazard 20]

Typical ambering by shellac in junction zones sac-nozzle and/or section-barrel. Here are not ambering by sac or inks and shows that the ambering process occurs in gaseous form from more to less by distance from origin as the test capsule aforementioned.

http://s2.postimg.org/hjf84lhk9/Ambering_fountain_pen_desk.jpg

Edited May 18, 2014 by Lazard 20

[kirchh]

Typical ambering by shellac in junction zones sac-nozzle and/or section-barrel. Here are not ambering by sac or inks and shows that the ambering process occurs in gaseous form from more to less by distance from origin as the test capsule aforementioned.

 

http://s2.postimg.org/hjf84lhk9/Ambering_fountain_pen_desk.jpg

You mean the ambering appears where hard rubber parts are in contact with the celluloid?

 

You didn't address my point about your theory regarding the evaporation of alcohol carrying shellac. The majority of that evaporation takes place in the first few hours after the shellac is applied, so the ambering would occur during that time. Correct?

 

--Daniel

[Lazard 20]

Your questions are captious (at least they seem to me) so I will answer without entering them exactly.

 

Correct is that celluloid of fountain pens are ambering, that shellac is color amber, the amber shellac has a high tinting strength as used for dyeing and that greater ambering happens in areas where there is more shellac. That is correct and this is what everyone, except Bruce in Occala, sees ... well almost everybody and Bruce.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Lazard 20

[OcalaFlGuy]

 

and that greater ambering happens in areas where there is more shellac. That is correct and this is what **no one except me sees.**

 

There, I fixed that for you.

 

You're welcome.

 

Bruce in Ocala, Fl

[Lazard 20]

There, I fixed that for you

 

You are welcome too here .If you visit this land, please let me know.

 

Your answer seems very well built, even brilliant, and your point of view, although it seems contrary to mine, it seems me very respectable. Be good -"sé bueno", as I tell to my friends.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Lazard 20

[JonSzanto]

Next up: the grassy knoll.

[OcalaFlGuy]

Next up: the grassy knoll.

 

While initially I was unconvinced of the single shooter theory, in past decades I have changed my mind. LHO was the only shooter.

 

Now. What *I* want to know is how the Kennedy's killed Marilyn Monroe.

 

Bruce in Ocala, Fl

[Lazard 20]

"Next up: the grassy knoll"

 

Time ago, clik here, I recommended you to read to John Kennedy and not my post (John Kennedy Toole writer. It's possible you were a little sleepy and you thought in JFK President. Nothing happens, but you're going to bed without dinner for another day're more awake. I dont have to time today for more. Be good)

Edited May 18, 2014 by Lazard 20