Warranted Nibs

[Wahlnut]

Over the years we have had a number of questions about Warranted Nibs. Who made them and when? In going through some of the many Wahl Patents, recently, I was reminded that the patent related to the semi-automatic nib making machines patented by Wahl (John Estabrook Wahl) contains many drawings of the nibs in various stages of production. What seems interesting to me si that the pen points illustrated clearly say WARRANTED in the diagrams

Here's the link to the complete patent at the USPTO

Warranted Nibs

 

 

 

[jimhughes]

Over the years we have had a number of questions about Warranted Nibs. Who made them and when? In going through some of the many Wahl Patents, recently, I was reminded that the patent related to the semi-automatic nib making machines patented by Wahl (John Estabrook Wahl) contains many drawings of the nibs in various stages of production. What seems interesting to me si that the pen points illustrated clearly say WARRANTED in the diagrams

Here's the link to the complete patent at the USPTO

Warranted Nibs

Syd:

The implication of this new item of pen history, is that Warranted nibs were made on a machine from a Wahl patent. But NOT necessairly by Wahl or one of their factories, right? Jim

 

[LBpens]

Over the years we have had a number of questions about Warranted Nibs. Who made them and when? In going through some of the many Wahl Patents, recently, I was reminded that the patent related to the semi-automatic nib making machines patented by Wahl (John Estabrook Wahl) contains many drawings of the nibs in various stages of production. What seems interesting to me si that the pen points illustrated clearly say WARRANTED in the diagrams

Here's the link to the complete patent at the USPTO

Warranted Nibs

Syd:

The implication of this new item of pen history, is that Warranted nibs were made on a machine from a Wahl patent. But NOT necessairly by Wahl or one of their factories, right? Jim

 

No, it just means that the Wahl machine was one way to make warranted nibs and that some warranted nibs were made on it. These are drawings so I would guess since the idea was to have other companies buy the machine the illustration would have the nibs engraved with something generic like warranted rather than say, Wahl.

 

[Wahlnut]

Well, Jim, I am just trying to say that Wahl at least made warranted nibs.

 

It is easy to draw both too much and too little from these diagrams. I purposely included the link to the whole patent ap, so the reader could see the whole idea of making pen nibs faster and cheaper was what the patent was about. It was not just about the machine. It is about the process of mass producing nibs which INCLUDED the patenting of a machine to do it. On the other hand, the patenting was not necessarily a precursor to making the machine available to others for purchase or lease or whatever. It was more likely to protect the machine from duplication by a competitor who might just hire a Wahl employee, or by other means. Those of us who fool around with patent language in order to understnd what was going on, believe that the claims and the language of the patent writer was designed to over-reach so as to try to make the whole process proprietary to keep competitors from doing anything that could threaten the proprietary product involved.

 

In addition to the machine, the first page of drawings describes that whole process by which nibs were made and made on it. The drawings of the nibs with the word "warranted" showing on them on a patent that was done by Wahl for Wahl and under the name of VP, and the son of John C Wahl, John E Wahl says to me that the making of Warranted nibs in, at the Wahl Eversharp plant and on machines that they manufactured is a fact.

 

This may be no big Whoop to many but it is to me...cause many folks ask "Why is my pen sporting a Warranted nib? Who made that nib? Is it original to the pen?, Did Wahl make Warranted nibs? etc. For some, repeating "common knowledge" is not enough. We need something citable as evidence to make such a claim. So when I was looking at the diagram again, I saw the WARRANTED word and said. Hmmm.

 

Warranted nibs have been held by many historians to have been made by many pen makers and pen nib jobbers who just made nibs under contract. There is precious little evidence about just who these nib makers actually were. Now, based on the information I was trying to share, it is clear that Wahl at least made them. The machine involved has no direct bearing on what name is pressed into the gold nib. The machine could be used in making nibs with anything on the nib that the maker would have wanted.

 

Am I just getting you more confused or does this help any?

 

Syd

 

 

 

[jimhughes]

Well, Jim, I am just trying to say that Wahl at least made warranted nibs.

 

It is easy to draw both too much and too little from these diagrams. I purposely included the link to the whole patent ap, so the reader could see the whole idea of making pen nibs faster and cheaper was what the patent was about. It was not just about the machine. It is about the process of mass producing nibs which INCLUDED the patenting of a machine to do it. On the other hand, the patenting was not necessarily a precursor to making the machine available to others for purchase or lease or whatever. It was more likely to protect the machine from duplication by a competitor who might just hire a Wahl employee, or by other means. Those of us who fool around with patent language in order to understnd what was going on, believe that the claims and the language of the patent writer was designed to over-reach so as to try to make the whole process proprietary to keep competitors from doing anything that could threaten the proprietary product involved.

 

In addition to the machine, the first page of drawings describes that whole process by which nibs were made and made on it. The drawings of the nibs with the word "warranted" showing on them on a patent that was done by Wahl for Wahl and under the name of VP, and the son of John C Wahl, John E Wahl says to me that the making of Warranted nibs in, at the Wahl Eversharp plant and on machines that they manufactured is a fact.

 

This may be no big Whoop to many but it is to me...cause many folks ask "Why is my pen sporting a Warranted nib? Who made that nib? Is it original to the pen?, Did Wahl make Warranted nibs? etc. For some, repeating "common knowledge" is not enough. We need something citable as evidence to make such a claim. So when I was looking at the diagram again, I saw the WARRANTED word and said. Hmmm.

 

Warranted nibs have been held by many historians to have been made by many pen makers and pen nib jobbers who just made nibs under contract. There is precious little evidence about just who these nib makers actually were. Now, based on the information I was trying to share, it is clear that Wahl at least made them. The machine involved has no direct bearing on what name is pressed into the gold nib. The machine could be used in making nibs with anything on the nib that the maker would have wanted.

 

Am I just getting you more confused or does this help any?

 

Syd

Syd:

I appreciate your take on the situtaion and the points you've made herein. It certainly is a provactive thought that at least some of these Warranteed nibs out here, were originally made in a plant under the direction of Wahl employees. Credit where credits due and all. I have found these nibs to be as nice a writers as my Parker and Sheaffer Vintage nibs. But then a lot of us on the board are pleased with our steel nibs as much or more so than our gold ones. I guess my intent was to see how far a Wahl expert, a pen and patent scholar would go to committing that any one Warranteed nib might or MIGHT NOT have been a Wahl product. The last statement being my take on your OP. Thank you for your input and evaluation of the patents meaning on warranteed nibs, Jim

[Roger W.]

Syd and Jim;

 

Hold your horses! Just because there is a patented machine does not mean that it was produced and/or ever made any warrented nibs for Wahl pens. Certainly it could have but, many a patent was never more than a patent. Have we got evidence of a real machine? It is certainly a helpful patent to find all the same but it is still not what we would call proof.

 

Roger W.

[LBpens]

I find the machine not that relevant. I believe it is known that Wahl made nibs for other companies. What is hard to fathom is that Wahl "didn't" make warranted nibs, at least for their own use and maybe for others. Wahl was certainly not the only maker of warranted nibs. So can one say that a warranted nib in a Wahl pen was made by Wahl? No way. They could have bought from the outside market when they needed them and of course it could have been switched anytime over 70 or 80 years. I'd say it was more likely a warranted nib in a Wahl pen was made by Wahl, whether with this machine or not, but that's about all you can say. I'm not sure why it matters because since Wahl could have and probably did use other processes for making warranted nibs than for making named nibs, you couldn't really conclude that a warranted nib made by Wahl was particularly similar to Wahl nibs.

Edited March 3, 2009 by LBpens

[Wahlnut]

A lot of good input here.

As Lynn says, the machine is not the focus of this post. It is the appearance of the Warranted nib in a Wahl document that I am pointing out. Why would Wahl go the the added trouble of placing the word WARRANTED on all the hand drawn diagrams of the pen nibs shown in their own patent, if it were not part of their own production? If they were not a product Wahl why put anything on the nibs in the drawing at all? I've studied Wahl's business "philosophy" "ethics" and lack thereof, and their "Brand" focused culture for some time now. I have never seen anything in the literally hundreds of documents where they showed, mentioned, advertised, or alluded to anything specifically made by other companies.

 

Fact: Wahl made gold nibs on site ( I have an company phone directory from the 30's showing the gold department, and an article that was written back then about who was allowed to be in the gold area and what they had to do with the gold in the morning and at night to lock it up and to be sure no one walked out with any.)

Fact: There are Warranted nibs in Wahl pens...(where did they come from?)

Fact: Warranted nibs show up regularly (some in original boxes I am told) in pens with voided guaranty, drilled gold seals. (Where did they come from?)

Fact: There is an approved patent submitted by Wahl which was submitted to protect the manufacture of their nib making methods showing Warranted nibs in various stages of manufacture and completion.

 

If not just being a contrarian, why would anyone now doubt that Wahl made their own Warranted nibs? (which was my only point in the first place)

 

UNKNOWNs do exist about other aspects to be sure:

Did Wahl supply Warranted nibs to others? Not supported by any data I have

Who else made Warranted nibs? We seem to collectively know of some.

Would Wahl buy Warranted nibs from someone else if they had their own gold and nib plant within the wahl factory? Doubt it. Only if they ran out? Would be a rare situation.

 

Did untold numbers of repair pen repair people have a bunch of Warranted nibs about to replace Wahl or Eversharp nibs with over the years (probably).

Did they replace Wahl nibs on unsold in box Wahl pens? Doubt it.

Are there Nib Gremlins that switch nibs around at night when everyone is sound asleep. Maybe

Are they laughing? Probably

Am I angry with them? No more than any other gremlin in pen land (none on this board of course)

Will I do damage to them if i catch them? Maybe

 

More ramblings

Syd

Edited March 3, 2009 by Wahlnut

[LBpens]

I agree with syd BUT... in the finnicky world of pen collecting a warranted nib that was probably made by Wahl is just another warranted nib. I'm convinced Wahl made lots of warranted nibs. maybe they wouldn't even have punched all those seals and added warranted nibs if the nibs they were adding hadn't been made in house. I'm also convinced Wahl sold warranted nibs outside because they did lots of other work outside. The harder thing to believe is they never once sold any warranted nibs outside. But when all is said and done, and more is said than done, a warranted nib is still a mystery with no DNA to track it's parentage.

[Vintagepens]

This is a rather strange thread.

I'm afraid that the "evidence" of the patent drawing casts no light on any of the issues here raised. Claiming otherwise is reading something into the images that just isn't there. This is all the more odd, given that it has long been established that Wahl did make and use warranted nibs -- though I have seen no evidence whatsoever that those nibs were ever provided to any other penmaker.

 

Just to recap: there should be no question about Wahl-made warranted nibs. They are distinctive in design, have been found for years in NOS pens, and Don Lavin even interviewed an old-time Wahl employee who confirmed that they were Wahl-made.

 

[Wahlnut]

David,

I too have heard all the anecdotal information, that has gone into the "long been established" "knowledge" but nowhere, nowhere is there any written historically contemporary evidence that such a belief is true. Not in Wahl or Eversharp Ads, Catalogs, Repair manuals, parts lists, etc. The patent filing is to my knowledge the only actual proof that the common belief held by pen collectors is valid. So from an academic point of view, while the connection between the patent drawings and the history of wahl, is no big deal to some, does not diminish its importance to at least me and perhaps some other new-comers to this discussion who may not have known about the warranted nib connection. The Bible is full of information that is widely held to be true, but the archeologists keep digging to verify or deny the accuracy of a written word that is the subject of myriad translations, edits, andthe likr.

 

I think you will remember that it was not long ago that most of Pen Collectors and authors on the subject were convinced that the Eversharp Pencil was invented in Japan by a Mr Hayakawa. Almost every book I have on Pens and Pencils before 2003 says so. Research turned up Charles Keeran to be the true inventor. Common knowledge oft repeated does not make anything true. So a little factual evidence was presented here for those who might not be so sure.

 

Syd

Edited March 4, 2009 by Wahlnut

[Roger W.]

Syd;

 

As far as Wahl signing off on using warranted on nibs, I agree that the patent does that as it could have well been left blacnk or, more appropriately said "Wahl" instead. Wahls appear with warranted nibs friquently like Eclipses so their use of warranted is well accepted. You never see any frequency of Sheaffers being found with warranted nibs. It is curious that Wahl would make their own nibs and stike them warranted instead of Wahl. Was there some doubt to the value/quality of Wahl nibs? I think Wahl did use warranted nibs but, why?

 

Roger W.

[Wahlnut]

Well Roger, I can only speculate as to why Wahl made warranted nibs. Here's my list in no particular order:

 

1) They might have made them for sale to other pen makers who did not have their own nib manufacturing capabilities and who did not want to pay for private labeling?

 

a) There was a well known supply of "jobbed" pen points made in Europe (Germany)

Nibs made in the US could be sold for less than nibs imported from Germany?

 

2) They might have needed a nib that could be put into private label/bulk sale pens to other retailers.

a) We know that Wahl made pens for department chain stores like Gold Bond for Montgomery Ward. Did these pens have nibs that said Gold Bond or WARRANTED?

 

3) They might have needed a nib that did not say "Gold Seal" to be put on pens that were "Gold Seal guarantee voided" like the drilled gold seal pens?

 

4) There was named for the long lost Wahl nephew Warren Ted Wahl?

[rhosygell]

I like suggestion number 4! Totally implausible.

 

Warranted nibs were probably made and used by Wahl for other contract manufactured pens and possibly for economical repairs to pens in order to avoid dilution of the brand ?

[LBpens]

Documentation is not the only form of evidence, logic and deduction work too. We know that secondary companies used warranted nibs. Did they all make their own? We can't prove they didn't but it is a stretch to think they did. That means someone made them and sold them. Who? We know of no company making only warranted nibs, if there had been one we probably would know. That means one or more of the larger pen companies made warranted nibs and sold them to others. That still doesn't prove it was Wahl. And I doubt it was only Wahl. But we do know that Wahl used a lot of warranted nibs internally so it stands to reason they were a/the top candidate for maker and seller. Now there's a patent for a machine with illustrations of nibs marked warranted? To avoid the conclusion that Wahl was making warranted nibs you would have to instead conclude that they were buying their warranted nibs from someone else and invented this machine for the other company so their profits could increase.

[Vintagepens]

David,

I too have heard all the anecdotal information, that has gone into the "long been established" "knowledge" but nowhere, nowhere is there any written historically contemporary evidence that such a belief is true. Not in Wahl or Eversharp Ads, Catalogs, Repair manuals, parts lists, etc. The patent filing is to my knowledge the only actual proof that the common belief held by pen collectors is valid. So from an academic point of view, while the connection between the patent drawings and the history of wahl, is no big deal to some, does not diminish its importance to at least me and perhaps some other new-comers to this discussion who may not have known about the warranted nib connection. The Bible is full of information that is widely held to be true, but the archeologists keep digging to verify or deny the accuracy of a written word that is the subject of myriad translations, edits, andthe likr.

 

I think you will remember that it was not long ago that most of Pen Collectors and authors on the subject were convinced that the Eversharp Pencil was invented in Japan by a Mr Hayakawa. Almost every book I have on Pens and Pencils before 2003 says so. Research turned up Charles Keeran to be the true inventor. Common knowledge oft repeated does not make anything true. So a little factual evidence was presented here for those who might not be so sure.

 

Syd

 

I'm not sure why you are citing my work on debunking the myth of the Eversharp's Japanese origins in this context.

 

Written evidence isn't the only kind of historical evidence -- nor does it necessarily outweigh other sorts of evidence. In this case, it is a gross misrepresentation to state that the evidence that Wahl made and used warranted nibs is "anecdotal". There is a large amount of primary material evidence for this (new old stock Wahl-made pens with warranted nibs, nearly all either sub-brands or with drilled Gold Seals), plus the eyewitness testimony of a former Wahl employee cited above. Quite a few early-production Wahl-made warranted nibs also bear a distinctive stylized "W" that also appears on contemporary pens. Pretty strong evidence, this -- not anecdotal, nor pen collectors' hearsay lore. Remember about the difficulties about trying to prove a negative -- and never forget that the documentary record for Wahl is very spotty indeed.

 

Wahl Dorics and the like made for Montgomery Wards under the Gold Bond name bear Gold Bond-marked Wahl nibs.

 

There is no evidence I have seen that Wahl ever made warranted nibs for other penmakers.

 

[Vintagepens]

Documentation is not the only form of evidence, logic and deduction work too. We know that secondary companies used warranted nibs. Did they all make their own? We can't prove they didn't but it is a stretch to think they did. That means someone made them and sold them. Who? We know of no company making only warranted nibs, if there had been one we probably would know. That means one or more of the larger pen companies made warranted nibs and sold them to others. That still doesn't prove it was Wahl. And I doubt it was only Wahl. But we do know that Wahl used a lot of warranted nibs internally so it stands to reason they were a/the top candidate for maker and seller. Now there's a patent for a machine with illustrations of nibs marked warranted? To avoid the conclusion that Wahl was making warranted nibs you would have to instead conclude that they were buying their warranted nibs from someone else and invented this machine for the other company so their profits could increase.

 

Sorry, Lynn, but we do indeed know of quite a few independent companies that specialized in making gold fountain pens nibs, most of them marked "warranted".

 

[LBpens]

Documentation is not the only form of evidence, logic and deduction work too. We know that secondary companies used warranted nibs. Did they all make their own? We can't prove they didn't but it is a stretch to think they did. That means someone made them and sold them. Who? We know of no company making only warranted nibs, if there had been one we probably would know. That means one or more of the larger pen companies made warranted nibs and sold them to others. That still doesn't prove it was Wahl. And I doubt it was only Wahl. But we do know that Wahl used a lot of warranted nibs internally so it stands to reason they were a/the top candidate for maker and seller. Now there's a patent for a machine with illustrations of nibs marked warranted? To avoid the conclusion that Wahl was making warranted nibs you would have to instead conclude that they were buying their warranted nibs from someone else and invented this machine for the other company so their profits could increase.

 

Sorry, Lynn, but we do indeed know of quite a few independent companies that specialized in making gold fountain pens nibs, most of them marked "warranted".

 

I said we know of no company making only warranted nibs. In other words, no-one would go into business to make only nibs marked warranted and no other nibs. Didn't the companies you are speaking of make nibs with other labeling? Do you see an argument that Wahl made NO warranted nibs?

 

[Vintagepens]

I said we know of no company making only warranted nibs. In other words, no-one would go into business to make only nibs marked warranted and no other nibs. Didn't the companies you are speaking of make nibs with other labeling?

 

It is more the leap of logic taken in the second sentence below that I would object to (emphasis added):

 

We know of no company making only warranted nibs, if there had been one we probably would know. That means one or more of the larger pen companies made warranted nibs and sold them to others.

 

In fact, I have seen no evidence to date that any of the larger pen companies ever sold warranted nibs to their competitors as a sideline. I am strongly inclined to doubt that this was ever done, save only under exceptional circumstances. There were plenty of independent nibmaking companies around; of course they could put a customer's choice of imprint on nibs, but many smaller penmakers were happy paying less for a generic nib, and for repairmen generic nibs had a definite advantage. In any event, there is every reason to think that the demand for generic nibs was fully met by the independent nibmakers, and that the big pen companies had little incentive to compete in that particular market.

[LBpens]

Perhaps it is true that Wahl made pens for other companies but not nibs. Either they did or they didn't sell warranted nibs outside. Lack of evidence that they did is hardly conclusive that they didn't. What form would such evidence take and where would one expect to find it? I don't see any basis for David's "strong inclination to doubt" this ever happened. I don't even see the basis for a weak inclination. If they are bothering to make pens for other companies and they have a machine illustrated as making warranted nibs, it seems far-fetched to me that they "wouldn't" sell warranted nibs to anyone who wanted them. But I suppose, absent evidence, it is no better than 50/50 either way. I doubt an invoice for warranted nibs from Wahl to Gold Bond or whoever will surface, but in the meantime I will not make the (dare I say it?) "unwarranted" assumption that all warranted nibs offered on the market were made by some little independent nib maker and not by any of the big companies. PS - I'd be curious to see the evidence that there were these independents making warranted nibs, never heard that before.