Fact or legend?

[RevAaron]

But the lack of an example easily at hand still doesn't mean that they were not produced. I have heard of dinnerware and water pitchers produced with the symbol as well as typewriters made with two extra keys during the war. It jogs the back of my mind that at a pen show some collector produced an example. It might also be that the people who collect things with that symbol on it aren't likely to be seen on pen boards.

 

Except, it's easy to find dinnerware with Nazi regalia on it. And a lot of other things. But, so far, there isn't a well documented pen with it. While not having an example at hand doesn't mean such pens weren't produced, if there was such a pen it would likely have shown up and be documented well enough that we could find specific information, not just vague rumors.

 

Most collectors of military regalia, Nazi or otherwise, aren't Nazis or "white nationalists" themselves, so it's not like they have anything to hide. Considering the amount of overlap I've seen between collecting pens and collecting other stuff (watches, guitars, pipes, razors, guns, many kinds of antiques) I wouldn't be surprised if there were a number of folks on here, PenTrace or show regulars that collect WW2 artefacts. And if they had a pen like this, they'd be showing it off- owning something this exceedingly rare would be a point of pride amongst pen collectors.

 

The idea for folks who would collect that kind of stuff is that is from a certain time and place in history, not that it happens to have a swastika on it. They don't worship Hitler and cuddle up with the good luck anti-clockwise swastika blanket they got from their grandma.

 

I would wonder if the company would admit to producing pens with that particular decoration if asked about it???

 

I think they'd say no. They don't seem to be terribly well versed in their own history, but even if someone did know, it wouldn't be something they would advertise, not with the image they like to project.

[RLTodd]

(1) I look at it, and look at it, and look at it, etc..... I still cannot see how anyone can confuse the MB "snowflake" with the Star of David.

 

(2) As far as the swastika on the caps, I will believe it when I see a picture of it. (photoshopped counts not)

 

(2a) I thought the Nazi party gave out medals and titles for awards rather than utilitarian items such as pens.

[niksch]

I thought the Nazi party gave out medals and titles for awards rather than utilitarian items such as pens.

There you go...letting reasonable thought get in the way of the band wagon.

 

Eric

[sumgaikid]

Page 57 of Andreas Lambrou's book " Fountain Pens Of The US And The United Kingdom" shows a Parker

no.53 in gold fill over HR with three of the "Nazi" symbols on it,next to two "Aztec" pens. All three pens were

made in 1910,long before Hitler chose to use the symbol to represent the Nazi party/dictatorship.

 

John

Edited December 12, 2008 by sumgaikid

[niksch]

And being made in 1910, confirms RevAaron's posting with other examples of the use of this symbol (and my single one). Parker's overlays are clearly examples are American Indian symbolism, which I believe was very popluar in the 10s and 'teens. There are other groups that have used this symbol of course, my focus has been on our Native Americans.

 

Eric

 

Page 57 of Andreas Lambrou's book " Fountain Pens Of The US And The United Kingdom" shows a Parker

no.53 in gold fill over HR with three of the "Nazi" symbols on it,next to two "Aztec" pens. All three pens were made in 1910,long before Hitler chose to use the symbol to represent the Nazi party/dictatorship.

 

John

Edited December 12, 2008 by niksch

[RevAaron]

(1) I look at it, and look at it, and look at it, etc..... I still cannot see how anyone can confuse the MB "snowflake" with the Star of David.

 

I don't mean that folks would confuse the two, but that they are the same shape. A lot of folks associate any cruciform, whether or not the arms are all the same length, with the Christian crucifix, which is an even more generic shape/symbol than a hexagram.

 

MB logo:

http://www.hanspens.com/MB%20Logo%20Mod.jpg

 

Star of David:

http://www.timboucher.com/journal/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/star-of-david.gif

 

They're both six-pointed polygons with equidistant points and equilateral lines... Next thing you know, you'll be saying there is no similarity between the Death Star at the AT&T logo.

 

Aaron

[wspohn]

This is like saying "Did Waterman ever make a pen with the Ford motor car symbol on it?"

 

Sure, probably did, and MB may well have done custom caps, perhaps as a special order as keepsakes, but we just haven't seen any authenticated examples yet. Until we do, it remains an open question, as I don't expect anyone in the company would be likely to answer the question if in fact they did produce these.

 

OTOH, I'd be a bit surprised if they were made, even in small numbers, that they wouldn't turn up in the very active Nazi memorabilia market.

 

Here is the much older Parker mentioned above.

 

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_UjHFxq3D1ZM/SSmre0taDyI/AAAAAAAAAuA/TywcFbW7tdA/s400/pkr53swastika.jpg

[hardyb]

These items may interest some:

 

I know that Braun received a gold pen (Waterman, I think) for a Christmas present from AH based on photographs in a book by one of the individuals charged with interviewing the criminals of the reich before the War Crime trials. Also Goering had two fountain pens in his considerable luggage and gave one and a watch to "Tex" Wheelis at or just prior to HG's death by his own hand.

Edited December 12, 2008 by hardyb

[Zoe]

I have been researching WWII German fountain pens and concur. Most were made for Germans in Germany, Nazi or non-Nazi.

 

And it is most likely the swastika story is a legend.

 

All German companies manufactured products for the nazis during the war, and there is no reason to think MB was an exception.

There were no "swastika MBs" though, that is an urban legend as far as I know.

 

[sumgaikid]

These items may interest some:

 

I know that Braun received a gold pen (Waterman, I think) for a Christmas present from AH based on photographs in a book by one of the individuals charged with interviewing the criminals of the reich before the War Crime trials. Also Goering had two fountain pens in his considerable luggage and gave one and a watch to "Tex" Wheelis at or just prior to HG's death by his own hand.

 

Is this the pen that was owned by Braun,Goering,or one that you had? What happens to be the brand and model?

 

John

 

[QM2]

Re Kurt's comment about evidence: I agree that there can never be definitive evidence for something not existing.

 

The best I can do is this: As many of you know, I have been living in Germany and Austria on and off for the past year. As some of you know, I am involved in an art project with a colleague that addresses some issues pertaining to WWII. In this context, my colleague and I have actually looked into the nazi pen thing quite a bit. I have spoken about it to several older German and Austrian persons who both have an interest in FPs and were alive during WWII. They have told me that there was no such pen. There were other pens with swastikas and ss logos on the clip and body, but never, as far as they had seen, a MB with a swastika instead of the snow-cap.

 

Again, I realise that this is not definitive proof. But a piece of anecdotal evidence nonetheless.

 

[hardyb]

 

 

Is this the pen that was owned by Braun,Goering,or one that you had? What happens to be the brand and model?

 

None of the above. It was a pen that appeared on E-Bay as a "Krupp" (Alfried Krupp) relic as I remember. He was tried as a war criminal and sentenced to 12 years plus forfeiture of property. The provenance of the pen is questionable but it has a steel nib vs. gold which means it was manufactured for use inside Germany(quote below) (http://www.thepenguinpen.com/history/history.html)-"World War II, of course, had an impact on Pelikan. However, they were able to manufacture until the last year of the war when they closed down, it is not clear whether by edict or because of material shortages. However, the rule of the Nazis had its impact even before the war. As early as 1938 the German government began limiting the use of gold and forcing export trade for the purpose of securing hard currency. By 1938, many of Pelikan’s luxury models could be sold only outside the country and in Germany pens could be sold only with steel alloy nibs. "

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krupp_Trial

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4247069.stm

[RevAaron]

Steel nibs were used during the war, as well. I imagine someone had a gold nib, but I don't know much beyond that steel/alloy nibs were used during the war and in the immediate post-war period (until when?).

 

The 13x pens of this time had imprints/engraving that looked just like the usual nibs. Same with the steel nibs, but the numbered steel and gold nibs always looked more or less the same.

 

I've a couple of WW2 era pens, a MB 334 1/2 and a Mercedes no. 75, which also have no proper cap rings, but engraved and filled scores (fluting?). Looks neat, but the purpose of a cap ring is to structurally reinforce the cap and keep it from cracking.

 

Aaron

[sohopenco]

Yes, a WWII Montblanc with a swastika does exist.

I own an example.

I have been in the pen business for over 25 years and have traveled the world going to pen shows and it was at a show in Germany I talked with an employee (of what company I can not mention) and he told me in confidence that if a certain company had made pens with a Nazi swastika during the war then such a company would want to hire people to buy and destroy those pens.

My pen was acquired in a GI bring back Nazi grouping. I traded a rifle for it to the friend who bought the grouping for the uniform, dagger and prized ring.

This is not shocking, nor even surprising news as ALL companies in Germany that had a request or order from the Nazis complied.

End of legend.

 

[niksch]

Welcome to FPN.

 

I have to admire that your first post is one on a topic that was most contentious SEVEN years ago. Thanks for re-opening the debate, but unless you have some sort of confirmed photographic evidence, your theoretical discussions with a supposed employee "in confidence" about "a certain company" that made pens with the Nazi Swastika, holds no water.

 

I hold to my original premise, and I will add to it. Given the nature of the National Socialist "marketing" efforts, if there were MB pens with this emblem, we would have some sort of photographic marketing evidence. Since there are no such photos of Nazi propaganda with MB merchandise, it cannot be an historic oversight.

[Pravda]

Has it really become a illegal/taboo to own Nazi memorabilia? That now we have to 'mask' identities etc? Interesting.

[carlos.q]

Yes, a WWII Montblanc with a swastika does exist.

I own an example.

...

End of legend.

 

Welcome to FPN!

As you are new here you should be aware there is an unwritten (but very strict) rule in this forum that states: "Pictures or it didn't happen."

So we eagerly await your pictures...

[Postscript]

Wow, does it really matter? I thought MB acolytes worshiped the brand no matter what the heritage. OK pens so who cares?

 

Post Script

[jsolares]

Has it really become a illegal/taboo to own Nazi memorabilia? That now we have to 'mask' identities etc? Interesting.

 

I believe it is indeed illegal in germany.

[Michael R.]

It's not that easy. It's not the ownership which is illegal but the "use".

 

Check:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch_section_86a

 

if interested in the legal details.

 

Cheers

 

Michael