Flexible nibs

[Jimothy]

I have, recently, started to teach myself copperplate handwriting. To do this I have been using an elbowed nib made by Mitchells. I am so loving the way that I can use the flexible nib to make thick and thin strokes. I have also been experimenting with ordinary fountain pen inks in addition to "proper" dip pen ink and I am enjoying the variations in shading that this gives.

 

My question is "would I get a similar effect using a flex-nibbed foutain pen?"

 

Finances ( I mean my wife!) won't allow me to buy another pen just yet, but when they do I want to have got all my research completed about which are the best types of flexible nib. I asume that I will have to be buying vintage, and from what I have read the degree of flex can vary from pen to pen even if they are "identical" pens.

 

So any advice on what I should be looking for and which makes are most flexible would be appreciated.

 

I anticipate that I won't be making a purchase until early next year, so I might well hold off and have a good old browse at the Northern and Midland pen shows next year before making a purchase.

 

Thanks in advance for your suggestions.

[Maria]

Dear Jimonthy;

 

I cannot find a fountain match that out performs a dip pen's ability in flexibility.

 

However, I would consider having a custom made nib by Richard Binder on a Pelikan body; to recreate as near as possible to the flexibility of a dip pen.

 

With a full flex nib, xxfp or xxfp nib; you know what you have and it won't be peppered with purchased vintage pens that have semi-flex or no flex at all and, if lucky--find an artist nib on a vintage pen. Meanwhile, you have spent the same money in the quest; as you would have just getting a nib and pen customized.

 

www.richardspens.com

 

I have purchased three customized nibs from him and the fourth purchase is in the works. I enjoy Spencerian, which isn't radically different from Copperplate; from Richard Binder and--I am very happy.

 

Any vintage pen I get, will not replace the flexibility of a Richard Binder nib.

 

And, I would ask Richard Binder, to be on the look out for you; giving him your requirements. He may find a pen to your satisfaction.

 

Not fully flexible as Richard Binder's nibs; in vintage - I have a Waterman's #52 that I would say has semi-flex. Certainly isn't as nice as Mr. Binder's work. I am waiting on a Waterman's #12 and a Waterman's #32A-V. They have flexible nibs also but--not as flexible as a Binder nib.

 

The real key is -- "How flexible is the flexible nib."

 

Respectfully,

Maria

 

 

 

I have, recently, started to teach myself copperplate handwriting. To do this I have been using an elbowed nib made by Mitchells. I am so loving the way that I can use the flexible nib to make thick and thin strokes. I have also been experimenting with ordinary fountain pen inks in addition to "proper" dip pen ink and I am enjoying the variations in shading that this gives.

 

My question is "would I get a similar effect using a flex-nibbed foutain pen?"

 

Finances ( I mean my wife!) won't allow me to buy another pen just yet, but when they do I want to have got all my research completed about which are the best types of flexible nib. I asume that I will have to be buying vintage, and from what I have read the degree of flex can vary from pen to pen even if they are "identical" pens.

 

So any advice on what I should be looking for and which makes are most flexible would be appreciated.

 

I anticipate that I won't be making a purchase until early next year, so I might well hold off and have a good old browse at the Northern and Midland pen shows next year before making a purchase.

 

Thanks in advance for your suggestions.

 

[penburg]

One of my most flexible nibs I got at the Raleigh Durham show at a reasonable price... a Waterman Commando.

[wykpenguin]

Definitely not true. Even Mr Binder admits that he does not make wet noodles. I am quite sure that my no-name eyedropper ($25 from you-know-where) will flex more than whatever the nibmeisters can do with Pel nibs.

 

What is true however is that it is hard to find a good flex nib just by looking at pictures and descriptions. Many vintage pens didn't bother to put markings on the nib, except the size, so a #2 can be bold and firm or XF and full flex. Even writing samples can be misleading because they don't tell you how much pressure was put on the pen to get it to flex to that amount. It's best to go flea market/antique shop/pen show hunting to try out the pens yourself before buying unless you are buying from some of the more reputed seller here or from nibmeisters.

 

I wonder if someone will come out with plots of pressure Vs line width graphs for flex nibs. Or is that too scientific?

[Nick A]

Vintage Waterman pens can be found with very excellent flexible nibs. They are still not a dip pen though. Old Wahls have some killer flexible nibs as well. For copperplate you will want to really find a super-flexible nib. While many, many watermans have flexy nibs, very few have a really flexible nib like you'll be wanting. If you flex a nib too much, you can "spring" it... bend the tines out. The other thing to consider is the feed design. As you flex that nib, you want heavy ink when you need it, and light ink for the fine strokes. When the nib flexes on some pens, the ink just pours out and you end up with a big blot. So the air/ink ratio is important and you'll want to keep that pen full of ink most of the time to prevent that almost empty blotting. I would say in over 100 Waterman and Wahl pens I own or have owned, there are maybe a dozen at best that I would consider acceptable for copperplate, and good performers. I dabble a bit in the thick and thin strokes, and there are really only 3 out of all those that really do a great job. Two Watermans and one Wahl. You are definitely looking for a pre-1930 pen and nib, for what you want to do. European pens may have a bit more in the way of what you are looking for, but these are outside of my experience. You may have to go through a number of pens before you find one that is perfectly suited to your requirements, but I assure you it is worth it once you find one that is ideal.

 

For what it's worth, I have tried Richard Binder's flexible nibs and was not satisfied with them. They flex and are good nibs, but they are definitely not a vintage nib.

Edited November 25, 2008 by Nick A

[BillTheEditor]

Stick with the dip nibs for copperplate/roundhand. Dip nibs are better all around for that kind of work. Besides, doing those hands with a fountain pen, sooner or later you're going to permanently bend a nib.

[thibaulthalpern]

Any vintage pen I get, will not replace the flexibility of a Richard Binder nib.

 

Er...I won't be so sure about that. Richard himself I believe has said that while he can modify nibs to be quite flexible, they are not as flexible as vintage nibs.

 

While Richard hasn't said this, another nibmeister has told me that modifying a nib to flex weakens it and over time it will very likely break. Better not to have a contemporary nib modified to flex unless you really, for whatever reason, have to.

[pengoddess]

Stick with the dip nibs for copperplate/roundhand. Dip nibs are better all around for that kind of work. Besides, doing those hands with a fountain pen, sooner or later you're going to permanently bend a nib.

 

 

Agree that dip pen nibs for ornamental writing are best. This goes beyond the nib though ... FP Ink is not ideal for the fine hairlines you need to make for ornamental styles, dip pen inks work better and those cannot go into a FP. You also get more control over the flourishes with a dip pen.

 

I know that flex can be added to a FP nib, but none of it ever comes even remotely close to a Gillotts Principality or Zanerian Finewriter or similar styles of nibs which are what you need!

 

Sam

[simonrob]

More than a few vintage nibs in fountain pens will likely provide the sorts of lines you're looking for for copperplate writing, but as others have noted it's not easy to tell in which they are without trying them yourself. For the most part, nibs don't have distinguishing marks telling you how flexible they are (and even when they do it's not always helpful: I have a Wahl nib marked "flexible" which is less flexible than an unmarked Wahl and a couple of unmarked Wahl/Eversharp nibs I have, for instance); there are doubtless several Waterman's #2 or #4 or #5 (etc.) nibs that would do just what you want, but the number merely refers to nib size and tells you nothing about how fine or broad or flexible or firm the nib is. This is unfortunate, because such Waterman's will almost certainly cost significantly less than a Waterman's with a nib that *does* carry such an identifying mark, the Waterman's Pink nib - although not expressly sold as a copperplate nib, these provide a very fine line when unflexed and, when flexed, broaden easily enough for your purpose (the Red nib flexes at least as much, but doesn't start out as fine), and have excellent "return".

 

Of course, you may well spend less on a Waterman's with a Pink nib than on the trial-and-error process of trying to find the right sort of unmarked nib in some other pen; but then that trial-and-error process is rather fun. I would suggest that it probably makes sense to concentrate your search on American pens. Copperplate/Spencerian script seems mainly to have been an American style, so that while it's very easy to find flexible nibs in English and European pens (I suspect a higher proportion of these have flexible nibs than American pens do), few of them are as fine as, say, a Pink nib, nor do they have as snappy a "return."

 

There's one modern pen that comes fairly close to your requirements, a Pilot Custom 743 with a FA nib. I don't think I would recommend it, however: although very fine when unflexed, it's still not as fine as the finest vintage nibs, and although it flexes to what's probably a wide enough line, unless you write very slowly chances are the line will split when you flex because the ink supply to the nib doesn't keep up (Richard Binder's fix improves this but doesn't completely remove it).

 

Simon

[Pink Ink]

There's one modern pen that comes fairly close to your requirements, a Pilot Custom 743 with a FA nib. I don't think I would recommend it, however: although very fine when unflexed, it's still not as fine as the finest vintage nibs, and although it flexes to what's probably a wide enough line, unless you write very slowly chances are the line will split when you flex because the ink supply to the nib doesn't keep up (Richard Binder's fix improves this but doesn't completely remove it).

Ditto with the Custom 742 with the FA nib. The only difference is that the 743 has the larger #15 size nib and the 742 has a #10 size nib. Comparing the FA #10 nib, it can’t do the hairlines that my Nikko G dip nib does.

 

I also recommend oblique penholders for pointed pen work. Using a straight penholder or fountain pen means either contorting your right hand, writing with your left hand, or angling the paper almost 90° counter-clockwise to get the nib at the correct angle to the writing.

 

That said, I do want to start a little collection of flexy fountain pens. They are fun for doodling flourishes when I have downtime.