How 'old' is 'Vintage' currently?

[Shelley]

I guess different things can have different "vintages"?, my general rule is if it is 50 years plus then it is vintage. Does not matter what it is, pen, furniture, car, etc.

best thing about this is that it progresses, this year anything that is made in or before 1957 is vintage, next year it will be 1958 and so on.

[playpen]

One of my students was telling me about an "old guy" and when I asked what her definition of "old" was, she thought for a minute and then said, "Anyone over 25." I could have said, "Phew, good thing because I am 24," but then again, when asked about my age I reply without fail, "I am 100 years old, don't I look good?" I never fail to get compliments from the kids.... :ltcapd:

[g33klibrarian]

I can't resist pulling this conversation back up. Now that 15 years have passed, is pre-1960 still the line in the sand for "vintage"? Or is it like Shelley suggests above 50 years or older and thus a moving target?

 

For the fun of it, here's another potential measure for vintage -- corporate history. Maybe vintage are Parkers before the 1980s shakeup that moved them to the UK. Maybe vintage Sheaffers are those made before the last Sheaffer stepped down from leadership in the 60s. Maybe only those made in Ft Madison, Iowa. 

[vicpen123]

Maybe based on filling systems. Any pen before c/c is vintage. Covers P"51"s, Snorkels but not P45s.  As good as any other measure.

[ParramattaPaul]

I was going to suggest that how motor cars of age are classed might offer a rule of thumb, but there is even more confusion amongst car collectors about what defines a classic, vintage and antique car than we have with pens.  With that in mind, my personal definition is that any pen that is more than 50 years old is vintage.

[maclink]

6 hours ago, ParramattaPaul said:

With that in mind, my personal definition is that any pen that is more than 50 years old is vintage.

 

IMO, it's also about time of production.  Although new major innovations start new eras in pen design and user experience, this doesn't necessarily have to occur a long time before, hence the 'ballpoint takeover' seems convenient since it happened about 50yrs ago.  What would be the definition of vintage in 1975 then? 25yrs or older?

 

The other thing is that although there was the major shift from FP's to ballpoints, there were a lot more things happening with pen design.  The use of different materials, nib design/materials and characteristics, retractible ballpoints and the various designs for this, pen shapes, disposable pens, etc.

 

A MB 149 from the 50's looks and has very similar general features to the same pen produced today.  Isn't a 1950's MB 149 vintage?

[Bo Bo Olson]

I tend to put vintage in the era of semi-flex or flexier nib availability...@ 1970 for German pens.1972 for Geha, '65 for Pelikan.

Semi-vintage to @1970(MB)-1997(Pelikan) for regular flex nibs....when they went from a nice springy regular flex nib to stiffer fat and blobby nibs.

A car here in German gets red plates of a Vintage car at 25 years. Tax bennies and they can't flag you out of town for stinking up the air.

 

 

[InesF]

Thanks for resurrecting the thread.

For fountain pens I would consider any model vintage that:

- is not produced any longer

- has technical and/or construction features that are not exactly as they are in todays pens

- was intended and built in a way to last for a life

 

If, at least, two of the three criteria are met, I would consider a fountain pen to be vintage, independent from the year of construction.

In any doubt, the term classic may be a compromise, at least for models that had been constructed 25 or more years in the past, although they are still produced without modification (like Lamy 2000 or Lamy CP1).

To my knowledge, the term antique is precisely defined by something that was thought or built before the modern era (probably pre 600 a.D.)

 

An alternative approach: vintage is what a majority of people claim to be vintage.

 

[TheRedBeard]

17 minutes ago, InesF said:

Thanks for resurrecting the thread.

For fountain pens I would consider any model vintage that:

- is not produced any longer

- has technical and/or construction features that are not exactly as they are in todays pens

- was intended and built in a way to last for a life

Good points. 

Perhaps pp.1 and 3 above are key criteria.

 

Dictionary definition of VINTAGE: "something from the past of high quality, especially something representing the best of its kind."

 

 

17 minutes ago, InesF said:

...................

An alternative approach: vintage is what a majority of people claim to be vintage.

 

IMHO, Fundamentally wrong... 

[TheRedBeard]

Very good definition suggested by Sean aka @corniche

 

When I was in the antiques business, anything 100 years or older was "ANTIQUE."

 

Things that were 25-99 years old and of quality, was "VINTAGE."

 

Things that were 25+ years old, but of low quality, were "RETRO" or "COLLECTABLE."

 

Anything newer than 25 years old, was "USED MERCHANDISE. "

 

 

- Sean  

[TheRedBeard]

Original post by Sean is on this page:

www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/358574-pen-material-preference/page/3/

 

[txomsy]

I'd only add a point:

Anything over 100 years is antique by virtue of being very old.

 

But to be vintage, it is not enough to be old (for a given definition), but it also needs to be of exceptional or high-quality for its time. Otherwise, it is just old.

 

Calling vintage a piece of cheap useless (bleep) because it is old is a perversion of the term. Thus, a standard bic that is 50+ (or whatever) years old is old, may have sentimental, historical, collectible, archaeological or other kinds of value, but it is not in any way "vintage".

 

Or if you prefer, a piece of cheap toilet paper 50+ (or whatever) years old is not vintage, though it is old, while a piece of toilet paper 50+ (or whatever) years old with high quality paper produced in limited amount for top notch hotels with special decoration would qualify for "vintage (and maybe kitsch) toilet paper".

[TheRedBeard]

28 minutes ago, txomsy said:

I'd only add a point:

Anything over 100 years is antique by virtue of being very old.

 

But to be vintage, it is not enough to be old (for a given definition), but it also needs to be of exceptional or high-quality for its time. Otherwise, it is just old.

 

Calling vintage a piece of cheap useless (bleep) because it is old is a perversion of the term. Thus, a standard bic that is 50+ (or whatever) years old is old, may have sentimental, historical, collectible, archaeological or other kinds of value, but it is not in any way "vintage".

 

Or if you prefer, a piece of cheap toilet paper 50+ (or whatever) years old is not vintage, though it is old, while a piece of toilet paper 50+ (or whatever) years old with high quality paper produced in limited amount for top notch hotels with special decoration would qualify for "vintage (and maybe kitsch) toilet paper".

 

Right point indeed. 

[ParramattaPaul]

6 hours ago, TheRedBeard said:

Very good definition suggested by Sean aka @corniche

 

When I was in the antiques business, anything 100 years or older was "ANTIQUE."

 

Things that were 25-99 years old and of quality, was "VINTAGE."

 

Things that were 25+ years old, but of low quality, were "RETRO" or "COLLECTABLE."

 

Anything newer than 25 years old, was "USED MERCHANDISE. "

 

 

- Sean  

This works for me.  Henceforth, '... 25-99 years old and of quality ...' defines vintage for me.

[Bo Bo Olson]

2 minutes ago, ParramattaPaul said:

This works for me.  Henceforth, '... 25-99 years old and of quality ...' defines vintage for me.

make it 50, in one has to have time for semi-vintage.

[Ron Z]

This thread ran before Richard Binder and I went to the Sheaffer service center in Feb. 2008, before the service center in Ft. Madison closed - for about 8 months.  When all that was going down, Sheaffer defined anything made before 1982 as vintage, and parts were sorted accordingly.  Now 13 years later, I still use that as a dividing line, though in truth it may be closer to 1990 or 1995 today, given the number of pens that went out of production between 1982 and 1995.  Lets face it, time keeps moving, and even though WE remember what happened 38 years ago, that (and we) qualify as vintage.

[g33klibrarian]

From the world of cars, an insurance company states...

• classic is 20-45 years
• antique is 45 years+
• vintage is pre-1930
• Historic is determined by the states for license plates

"Retro" is also an interesting category. By definition retro is "imitative of a style, fashion, or design from the recent past."

 

If the key word is "imitative" then the Kaweco Dia2 or the new Parker 51 would be good examples (along with a good chunk of the Chinese pens in production). Yet, the Lamy 2000 might not be retro? It's still itself and not imitative.

 

This is certainly a fun rabbit hole to wander.

[g33klibrarian]

4 minutes ago, Ron Z said:

Sheaffer defined anything made before 1982 as vintage, and parts were sorted accordingly.

 

Ron, do you recall the reason they chose that time? Was there a change in manufacturing that changed how things were repaired or was it simply chosen as 25+ years?

 

(That's amazing y'all got to go! Glad you were able to see it before it was closed)

[Ron Z]

I have no idea.  The management of Sheaffer may not have had an idea either.   The Connaisseur hadn't been issued, nor had the Legacy line, and the Targa had several years of production left before it was discontinued.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Perhaps they didn't repair vintage pens from before that date?