Palladium silver (PdAg) nibs

[Stevopedia]

So I was thinking of buying a Snorkel for a friend. I quickly found Just the Pen (white dot fine PdAg Triumph nib with metal cap and pastel blue body). It's a very pretty pen and I'm sure it writes nicely, but I was just curious:

 

How do PdAg nibs compare to gold, especially in terms of writing comfort and nib durability?

[JJBlanche]

Off the top of my head, I'd say PdAg nibs are closer to steel in performance when compared to gold. (Keep in mind there are many things steel can do that gold cannot; there are many things PdAg can do that gold cannot...exactly what those things are, I don't know).

[RevAaron]

PdAg nibs seem to perform the same as the gold ones. They have the same tipping material. The main difference cosmetic.

 

To some extent, there is the difference between modern steel and gold, in that both make fine materials to make a nib out of but that the more expensive pens get more attention paid to their quality and smoothing than the low-end ens. I have two PdAg snorkels and they're probably the two smoothest writing Triumph nibs I've used. Like most Triumph nibs, they have no flex.

 

Some folks have said that the PdAg nibs he's used weren't as smooth as the gold nibs (Ernst Bitterman), but a few other folks in the same thread had said the PdAgs were as smooth as or smoother than the gold Triumphs. The latter has been my experience.

 

It's a shame PdAg isn't used anymore- it's more durable than steel when it comes to corrosive inks. Not a huge issue anymore, but for iron gall or Quink users it might matter in 50 years. The PdAg nibs appear to be just about as durable- the nibs I've seen have all held up as well as the gold nibs.

 

I read a bit about the PdAg nibs a while back on Penopoly, PenHero, or a site along those lines. Can't find the article now, but it basically said that the PdAg nibs wrote as well, lasted as long, but were used on the lower-end pens bceause they were cheaper to make and looked less purty.

 

Aaron

[DerMann]

The few Snorkels I've used with PdAg nibs were as smooth, if not smoother, than the 14k dual tone nibs on other triumph nibbed Snorks.

 

Then again, smoothness comes down to the tipping material, not so much the nib material.

[Ernst Bitterman]

...and I've since started to come around to the notion that strange chance brought me a series of uncommonly toothy PdAgs. That aside (and it's nothing terrible-- I mention somewhere that it's rather like the difference between drawing your finger across cotton and across velour), there's not a whit of difference other than colour, and the cost of the metal to the manufacturer.

[burmeseboyz]

This is all anecdotal, but I prefer PdAg in a lot of cases because:

-They're more resistant to corrosion then stainless steel, at least they should be with the Pd.

-They look better than most gold nibs IMHO.

-They're not as common as gold or steel nibs.

[Stevopedia]

Thanks for the info, guys. I knew I could count on you!

 

I thought they were better than steel (even steel can be really good, and I know that.) I just didn't think that they could match or surpass gold. I guess I was wrong!

 

Now, to get a nice Snork for myself...! :ltcapd:

[Jimmy James]

My one working Snorkel has a PdAg triumph. It's like butter. I think it's becoming more and more clear that it's my favorite nib.

[psfred]

The only difference is color.

 

Peter

[artaddict]

I prefer the feel of a gold triumph nib to a PdAg triumph nib. They feel different to me.

[JJBlanche]

Thanks for the info, guys. I knew I could count on you!

 

I thought they were better than steel (even steel can be really good, and I know that.) I just didn't think that they could match or surpass gold. I guess I was wrong!

 

Now, to get a nice Snork for myself...! :ltcapd:

 

Steel can surpass a gold nib. I know a fair number of people prefer steel for its flex. I like the gold for practical advantages, and also because I'm not at all into stylized handwriting, but lowly steel does have its place.

[Goshzilla]

I'm pretty sure that steel, and stainless steel are two different things. Stainless steel is steel that has a chrome treatment. That makes it far more resistant to rust than typical steel. So I doubt that there is any need to worry about corrosive inks.

[Iridium]

Within the same brand and model of pen, I think that writing quality depends a lot more on the individual nib than what it's made of, even when quality control was better and quality was more consistent. Some nibs just end up being better made than others by random chance (unless they're given a lot of individual human attention, which is highly unlikely).

 

I'm pretty sure that steel, and stainless steel are two different things. Stainless steel is steel that has a chrome treatment. That makes it far more resistant to rust than typical steel. So I doubt that there is any need to worry about corrosive inks.

 

I've always assumed that "steel" referred to some corrosion-resistant alloy of steel or other, at least in the case of fountain pens (dip pens are a different story). In many such alloys, chromium is mixed in to form a protective oxide coating, even when the steel is scratched. Stainless steel used in nibs typically won't rust appreciably, but they're not as corrosion-resistant in general as gold alloy nibs. This only matters, potentially, when using highly acidic or alkaline inks, though.

Edited September 16, 2008 by Iridium

[JJBlanche]

I'm pretty sure that steel, and stainless steel are two different things. Stainless steel is steel that has a chrome treatment. That makes it far more resistant to rust than typical steel. So I doubt that there is any need to worry about corrosive inks.

 

Far more being the key. Stainless steel does indeed rust. Gold does not. This isn't to say that one using a steel or stainless steel nib need run to the store and get one made from gold. I do believe, however, that the use of gold as a nib material is primarily because it is corrosion proof. Of course, this is a digression that has nothing to do with the OP's concerns, but nevertheless. Always good to meditate over such things.

[chkuo]

I've a Snorkel with a PdAg triumph nib that writes great. The nib is quite firm but I don't know if that's an attribute of the nib design or the material used.

 

Not sure about the durability, but if a pen/nib can survive all these years I'm not going to worry about it.

[Iridium]

I'm pretty sure that steel, and stainless steel are two different things. Stainless steel is steel that has a chrome treatment. That makes it far more resistant to rust than typical steel. So I doubt that there is any need to worry about corrosive inks.

 

Far more being the key. Stainless steel does indeed rust. Gold does not.

 

It all depends on the specific alloys we're talking about. Some "stainless" steels will rust a bit in air as part of a compromise for other properties such as strength (which is typical of many guns, for example). Most steels used in fountain pen nibs are far more resistant to oxidation (i.e. rusting), usually to the point where it's not a concern, although they are vulnerable to acids.

 

As for gold, pure (24K) gold generally does not corrode (although it's not completely invulnerable), but the 14K and 18K alloys used in nibs are not perfectly corrosion-resistant. They're generally better than stainless steel alloys in this regard and resist attack by acids very strongly, but it's still a matter of degree. And when exposed to chlorine compounds, for example, gold nibs can become prone to stress corrosion cracking.

 

This isn't to say that one using a steel or stainless steel nib need run to the store and get one made from gold.

 

Unless one uses a particularly corrosive ink, there is negligible practical difference between gold and steel nibs, the physical properties of which are determined by the specific alloys and nib design, not merely whether they're based on gold or iron.

 

I do believe, however, that the use of gold as a nib material is primarily because it is corrosion proof.

 

Gold isn't corrosion-proof--not even pure gold, which is dissolved by aqua regia (a mixture of nitric and hydrochloric acids--pretty ordinary chemicals).

 

Of course, this is a digression that has nothing to do with the OP's concerns, but nevertheless. Always good to meditate over such things.

 

Since we're on the subject....

 

I've a Snorkel with a PdAg triumph nib that writes great. The nib is quite firm but I don't know if that's an attribute of the nib design or the material used.

 

It's probably the nib design in addition to the various alloys used, as all Triumph nibs appear to be quite stiff (as well as springy when bent). That's good--it means that these are strong nibs. I doubt that most fountain pen nibs are meant to flex unless specifically designed (or altered) for this mode of writing. The reason that many nibs will flex to some degree under pressure is that the human hand is strong in comparison to a thin piece of metal. One could flex a Triumph or even a Parker "51" nib if one tried hard enough, but that can't be good for the nib.

[gyasko]

I can't tell much of a difference. I have a couple PdAg nibs, the M4 is great, the X4 is scratchy. I suspect the X4 was dropped at some point in its life. The gold triumph nibs are pretty much the same, but none is as nice as my good M4. Palladium is supposed to be good for ink flow, but really, with the triumph nibs, there isn't much difference. I like the looks of the PdAg nibs, too. So relax and enjoy your palladium silver nib.

[jonro]

I have a couple of snorkels with PdAg nibs and they are great. I have wondered what other metals are in PdAg nibs and what is the percentage of Silver and Palladium. I don't know if I'm imagining this or not, but I have thought that I feel a difference in "feel" between gold and steel nibs, perhaps due to the difference in density between the metals. Gold is very dense, but 14K gold is only 50% gold and contains other less dense metals. Palladium and Silver are not as dense as Gold, but are denser than steel.

[Iridium]

I can't tell much of a difference. I have a couple PdAg nibs, the M4 is great, the X4 is scratchy. I suspect the X4 was dropped at some point in its life.

 

Extra-fine nibs tend to be scratchier than medium nibs in general, although I have an X5 that appears to have been dropped, too, because the tip was bent just slightly to the right. I doubt that it came from the factory like this, and despite the pen being in superb shape overall, the poor thing could barely write, dumping puddles of ink on most downstrokes and dryly grabbing the paper on most upstrokes. Fortunately, after I straightened the tip and adjusted the taper of the slit, it writes like a champ now--a Triumph, if you will. I was beginning to wonder because honestly, I couldn't see all that much wrong even at 10X magnification--I've seen worse-looking nibs that wrote better. I guess I got lucky and still have a lot to learn, starting with taking pictures to study later on.

 

The gold triumph nibs are pretty much the same, but none is as nice as my good M4.

 

It depends a lot more on the shape of the nib, especially the tip. Whether a nib is gold, palladium, or steel doesn't really matter unless the manufacturer chooses to treat them differently. Otherwise, writing quality will vary randomly to some degree unless you tune and grind the nibs to get them as close to perfect as you can.

 

Palladium is supposed to be good for ink flow, but really, with the triumph nibs, there isn't much difference.

 

That shouldn't make a significant difference, and the gold Triumph nibs are plated with platinum (which has similar chemical properties as palladium) at the tines in any case. It might make these nibs more susceptible to nib creep, though.

 

EDIT: I originally said that the tines of the gold Triumph nibs were plated with palladium, but more reliable sources indicate that it's platinum. Oops! :embarrassed_smile: The two metals do have similar chemical properties, however, being in the same group (valence shells and all that scientific mumbo-jumbo).

 

I have wondered what other metals are in PdAg nibs and what is the percentage of Silver and Palladium.

 

According to Richard Binder's site, most of these nibs have up to 95% palladium content, and the ones marked "Palladium-Silver" have higher silver content. I dunno, maybe palladium was a lot less expensive back in those days, before people found critical uses for it.

Edited September 17, 2008 by Iridium

[Garageboy]

Hmm, both my fine and medium nib units for my PFM are toothy. Might need to be tuned up