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what is nib creep, please?


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#1 Joe in Seattle

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 16:56

appreciate the help. I'm trying to learn the vocabulary.
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#2 fatehbajwa

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 17:01

It's when the ink behaves in a creepy manner and spreads all over the nib.!!! laugh.gif

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#3 BillTheEditor

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 17:04

QUOTE (Joe in Seattle @ Aug 14 2008, 11:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
appreciate the help. I'm trying to learn the vocabulary.

Some inks have very low surface tension -- they flow very easily. For this reason, they move very easily through the slit in a pen nib. If your nib has any defect -- a nick, a scratch, a burr -- that gives the ink a path OUT of the slit, it will flow onto the top surface of the nib. This is "nib creep."

That's not a great explanation, and someone will probably give you a more authoritative answer, but I think it covers the basics.

#4 Breck

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 18:27

From Richard Binder's site:

nib creep
The spontaneous accumulation of ink on the top surface of a nib; the ink is said to “creep” up out of the slit. Some inks are more prone to creep than others, but the root cause of the phenomenon is a nib slit that is either damaged or manufactured with insufficient attention to finishing; nicks, scratches, etc., can create a capillary path across the edge between the slit wall and the top surface.



#5 Strang

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 18:50

It's what Noodler's Lakeshore Spruce does to every pen I own. glare.gif
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#6 Eternally Noodling

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 19:22

QUOTE (Murderface @ Aug 14 2008, 07:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
From Richard Binder's site:

nib creep
The spontaneous accumulation of ink on the top surface of a nib; the ink is said to “creep” up out of the slit. Some inks are more prone to creep than others, but the root cause of the phenomenon is a nib slit that is either damaged or manufactured with insufficient attention to finishing; nicks, scratches, etc., can create a capillary path across the edge between the slit wall and the top surface.


Platinum plated nibs invariably exhibit the property more, whether or not they are "perfect"...it has to do with chemistry...NOT mechanical condition. Note how the anodized nibs on the eyedopper demonstrator pens included with the 4.5 oz. bottles...are immune to nib creep.

Nib creep...

Noodler's makes many conventional inks...also some waterproof (once dry) that exhibit absolutely no nib "creep"...such as Borealis Black.

It is pH neutral. This is a BIG difference from the "water resistant" European inks, which invariably have a high cost for their water resistance: a battery acid pH level. If you are more concerned with the look of your nib than ink durability...then you will really be upset if the metal trim on your pen is plated gold or platinum group metals. The base metal is generally an aluminum alloy, bronze, or brass....all of which will perish before battery acid water "resistant" inks. Noodler's put several of those inks in metal foil cones to show what happens to the metal overnight...an easily replicated experiment in any kitchen sink!

Despite making "nib creep proof water proof pH neutral inks"...the market demands the highest volumes from the most durable Noodler's - such as standard black, luxury blue, legal lapis, aquamarine, heart of darkness, and many specialty eternals....but "waterproof /not bulletproof....yet nib creep proof" inks such as Borealis Black remain a small fraction of sales volume. The market keeps telling me...the more durable the ink, the better - the most durable on the planet is best of all. Many people will exchange "nib-creep" for the greatest durability in the world any day...it is all a matter of priorities.

There will be more "nib creep proof" waterproof inks, but I can tell you now...due to the chemistry they will never be bulletproof against more than 4/5ths the tools of the forger. Forgers only need one opening, and most fountain pen and ball pen inks on the market today give them dozens of openings. The strongest of the bulletproof inks leave the forger with NOTHING to work with, other than to scrape a hole in the document!
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The pen could be mightier than the thief and the gun if it is filled with a bulletproof ink too!

May be available again soon, I hope...but not at the moment:
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#7 Usui

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 19:27

Newbie Question:

I have a new Pelikan M215 that has done this since I bought it 2 months ago... and it's getting worse. I did not know it was due to a damaged or flawed nib. I have been using Noodler's Blue Black. Should I look into getting my nib repaired?
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#8 Bill_D

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 19:53

Deleted by author

Edited by Bill_D, 14 August 2008 - 20:29.

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#9 Richard

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 20:03

QUOTE (Eternally Noodling @ Aug 14 2008, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Platinum plated nibs invariably exhibit the property more, whether or not they are "perfect"...it has to do with chemistry...NOT mechanical condition.

Platinum-plated nibs are more prone to creep than unplated nibs because platinum is more wettable than gold; but if chemistry were the only cause of creep, then I would not be able to repair a creepy nib so that it no longer creeps. Since I am indeed able to make this repair, it's clear that there's more to creep than just chemistry.
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#10 Usui

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 20:28

QUOTE (Richard @ Aug 14 2008, 01:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Eternally Noodling @ Aug 14 2008, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Platinum plated nibs invariably exhibit the property more, whether or not they are "perfect"...it has to do with chemistry...NOT mechanical condition.

Platinum-plated nibs are more prone to creep than unplated nibs because platinum is more wettable than gold; but if chemistry were the only cause of creep, then I would not be able to repair a creepy nib so that it no longer creeps. Since I am indeed able to make this repair, it's clear that there's more to creep than just chemistry.

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#11 Eternally Noodling

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 09:24

QUOTE (Richard @ Aug 14 2008, 08:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Eternally Noodling @ Aug 14 2008, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Platinum plated nibs invariably exhibit the property more, whether or not they are "perfect"...it has to do with chemistry...NOT mechanical condition.

Platinum-plated nibs are more prone to creep than unplated nibs because platinum is more wettable than gold; but if chemistry were the only cause of creep, then I would not be able to repair a creepy nib so that it no longer creeps. Since I am indeed able to make this repair, it's clear that there's more to creep than just chemistry.


Ah, but Richard....I can make any nib show this property with chemistry. ;-)

It can be reduced and hindered - sure (even blocked with the anodized nibs)...but it can manifest itself with chemistry alone...I assure you.
"The pen is mightier than the sword."

The pen could be mightier than the thief and the gun if it is filled with a bulletproof ink too!

May be available again soon, I hope...but not at the moment:
Specialty Fountain Pen Nibs - click here

#12 Richard

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 11:37

QUOTE (Eternally Noodling @ Aug 15 2008, 05:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
[It can be reduced and hindered - sure (even blocked with the anodized nibs)...but it can manifest itself with chemistry alone...I assure you.

Nathan, I think we're talking at cross purposes here. tongue.gif I agree 173% with your assertion that chemistry is one way to cause creep. But it's not the only way.

The really cool thing that's come out of this discussion is that I was able to add the term wettability to my site's glossary, with cross-references to capillary action and nib creep. I've also made a small edit to the description of nib creep to add the point about platinum.

Glossary term count now stands at 775. Need more.
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#13 Pinmin

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 11:44

QUOTE (Usui @ Aug 14 2008, 07:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Newbie Question:

I have a new Pelikan M215 that has done this since I bought it 2 months ago... and it's getting worse. I did not know it was due to a damaged or flawed nib. I have been using Noodler's Blue Black. Should I look into getting my nib repaired?

Sug: 1st try Pelikan ink, then, if nec., consider sending to Chartpak or Richard Binder


#14 cfclark

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 16:12

I have one Sheaffer that does this--it always looks like it has the pen equivalent of a milk mustache. More annoying at this point than anything else, maybe someday I'll take the time to get it fixed.
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#15 Ink Stained Wretch

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Posted 17 August 2008 - 08:37

QUOTE (Eternally Noodling @ Aug 14 2008, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Platinum plated nibs invariably exhibit the property more, whether or not they are "perfect"...it has to do with chemistry...NOT mechanical condition. Note how the anodized nibs on the eyedopper demonstrator pens included with the 4.5 oz. bottles...are immune to nib creep.

Platinum is a heavy adsorber of hydrogen. It may be the best adsorber of that element, I don't recall. So that may relate to why such nibs would spread the water based ink around a lot. Having no platinum nibs I will just have to consider this an academic exercise.

QUOTE
Noodler's makes many conventional inks...also some waterproof (once dry) that exhibit absolutely no nib "creep"...such as Borealis Black.

Oh, jeez, I've missed this one in my absence. I may be getting close to looking at buying inks again! Not that I need to add to the 100+ bottles I already have. I'll be begging for quarters at subway stations soon in an effort to both pay the rent and buy more ink!

QUOTE
It is pH neutral. This is a BIG difference from the "water resistant" European inks, which invariably have a high cost for their water resistance: a battery acid pH level. If you are more concerned with the look of your nib than ink durability...then you will really be upset if the metal trim on your pen is plated gold or platinum group metals.

Acidic inks will also obliterate the paper they're on, the rate of that depending on the level of acidity.

QUOTE
Many people will exchange "nib-creep" for the greatest durability in the world any day...it is all a matter of priorities.

Yeah, I sure am one of those.

QUOTE (Usui @ Aug 14 2008, 03:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Newbie Question:

I have a new Pelikan M215 that has done this since I bought it 2 months ago... and it's getting worse. I did not know it was due to a damaged or flawed nib. I have been using Noodler's Blue Black. Should I look into getting my nib repaired?

I'd guess no. The nib creep is not such a terrible thing. I have to say that Noodler's Blue/Black, which looks just like the blue/black inks from my youth, doesn't do this a lot on my pens. Some other Noodler's inks do it a lot more.
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#16 BillTheEditor

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Posted 17 August 2008 - 17:01

QUOTE (Ink Stained Wretch @ Aug 17 2008, 03:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Eternally Noodling @ Aug 14 2008, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Noodler's makes many conventional inks...also some waterproof (once dry) that exhibit absolutely no nib "creep"...such as Borealis Black.

Oh, jeez, I've missed this one in my absence. I may be getting close to looking at buying inks again! Not that I need to add to the 100+ bottles I already have. I'll be begging for quarters at subway stations soon in an effort to both pay the rent and buy more ink!

I posted a water test of the Noodler's Borealis Black yesterday. I would call it extremely water resistant, and would feel very confident about addressing envelopes with it. I think Nathan says somewhere that it fades (my guess is, not very quickly -- like maybe over a couple of centuries).

#17 Eternally Noodling

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Posted 18 August 2008 - 05:12

QUOTE (BillTheEditor @ Aug 17 2008, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Ink Stained Wretch @ Aug 17 2008, 03:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Eternally Noodling @ Aug 14 2008, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Noodler's makes many conventional inks...also some waterproof (once dry) that exhibit absolutely no nib "creep"...such as Borealis Black.

Oh, jeez, I've missed this one in my absence. I may be getting close to looking at buying inks again! Not that I need to add to the 100+ bottles I already have. I'll be begging for quarters at subway stations soon in an effort to both pay the rent and buy more ink!

I posted a water test of the Noodler's Borealis Black yesterday. I would call it extremely water resistant, and would feel very confident about addressing envelopes with it. I think Nathan says somewhere that it fades (my guess is, not very quickly -- like maybe over a couple of centuries).


Ah, but test it against a battery of detergents....laundry detergents - the strong ammonia based...and then the color and conventional bleaches...carpet stain lifters. All those that Standard Noodler's Black resists...many - but not all....Borealis is most certainly NOT impervious to...

A retailer had asked for a super smooth conventional black ink "for the 5% who kept asking for one" - I could not bear to make it a WEAK conventional ink. So, yes...it will certainly survive the rain! ;-)


"The pen is mightier than the sword."

The pen could be mightier than the thief and the gun if it is filled with a bulletproof ink too!

May be available again soon, I hope...but not at the moment:
Specialty Fountain Pen Nibs - click here

#18 Richard

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Posted 18 August 2008 - 11:15

Nathan's reply immediately above shows one of the reasons I'm so impressed with Noodler's inks. He designs them for so many special purposes! Need a bulletproof ink? Noodler's has it. Need a highlighter? Noodler's has it. Need an ordinary ink with great color? Noodler's has it.

For all the arguing over whether Noodler's inks are good inks are bad inks, I have a simple, straightforward answer: They're good inks. But it's worth your time to think about what you really need, and not use an ink for what I'd consider novelty value. If you don't need a bulletproof ink, then it's probably better that you not use one.
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#19 amyx231

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 17:51

<!--quoteo(post=701483:date=Aug 14 2008, 07:27 PM:name=Murderface)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Murderface @ Aug 14 2008, 07:27 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=701483"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From <a href="http://www.richardsp.../?page=ref.htm" target="_blank">Richard Binder's site</a>:
<b>
nib creep </b> The spontaneous accumulation of ink on the top surface of a nib; the ink is said to “creep” up out of the slit. Some inks are more prone to creep than others, but the root cause of the phenomenon is a nib slit that is either damaged or manufactured with insufficient attention to finishing; nicks, scratches, etc., can create a capillary path across the edge between the slit wall and the top surface.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Platinum plated nibs invariably exhibit the property more, whether or not they are "perfect"...it has to do with chemistry...NOT mechanical condition. Note how the anodized nibs on the eyedopper demonstrator pens included with the 4.5 oz. bottles...are immune to nib creep.

Nib creep...

Noodler's makes many conventional inks...also some waterproof (once dry) that exhibit absolutely no nib "creep"...such as Borealis Black.

It is pH neutral. This is a BIG difference from the "water resistant" European inks, which invariably have a high cost for their water resistance: a battery acid pH level. If you are more concerned with the look of your nib than ink durability...then you will really be upset if the metal trim on your pen is plated gold or platinum group metals. The base metal is generally an aluminum alloy, bronze, or brass....all of which will perish before battery acid water "resistant" inks. Noodler's put several of those inks in metal foil cones to show what happens to the metal overnight...an easily replicated experiment in any kitchen sink!

Despite making "nib creep proof water proof pH neutral inks"...the market demands the highest volumes from the most durable Noodler's - such as standard black, luxury blue, legal lapis, aquamarine, heart of darkness, and many specialty eternals....but "waterproof /not bulletproof....yet nib creep proof" inks such as Borealis Black remain a small fraction of sales volume. The market keeps telling me...the more durable the ink, the better - the most durable on the planet is best of all. Many people will exchange "nib-creep" for the greatest durability in the world any day...it is all a matter of priorities.

There will be more "nib creep proof" waterproof inks, but I can tell you now...due to the chemistry they will never be bulletproof against more than 4/5ths the tools of the forger. Forgers only need one opening, and most fountain pen and ball pen inks on the market today give them dozens of openings. The strongest of the bulletproof inks leave the forger with NOTHING to work with, other than to scrape a hole in the document!



wheres the foil cones video? it sounds cool!






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