Anyone write cursive Cyrillic/Greek?

[jamesf]

I'm am planning on adding Cyrillic and Greek alphabet sets to complement a handwriting typeface I've made. I don't know where to start! I don't want to make up cursive forms that are sure to look alien to people who use these alphabets. I will be the laughingstock of the type world :roflmho: Anyone know any resources for learning cursive versions of these alphabets? It's not much but I'll give you a copy of the font family in return when it's finished.

[hardyb]

See if this helps: top one is German( old style) and the last two are more on point. The pdf file at the end is German too.

Edited August 6, 2008 by hardyb

[georges zaslavsky]

I write in Russian with the third style of letters. Thanks for posting this file HardyB.

[jamesf]

Thanks guys! These are very helpful.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/jamespf/cyrillictest.jpg

 

Here's what I have so far. How legible is it? I hope it doesn't look too

'second grade student.' Please critique the forms. Thanks!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/jamespf/cyrillictest2.jpg

I have no clue what the text says. I got it from a dummy text generator.

Edited August 7, 2008 by jamesf

[calliej]

i'm not much help but...

 

its pretty

[georges zaslavsky]

The translation in correct English of the text is the following sn some words are also missing in the russian text: "Problems you only gave. From nobody, we can think there is someone. He orchestrated it himself after efforts, programming one time programs. Doing evil, he couldn't realize. Like you give a stick, in that way the people are lead."

Here is the correct text in Russian: "Приклютчения ом бас толка можна даждача. Мы можем даждача всего ом всех.Он оркестравалъ эмо сам с усилями потому чмо он програмипабалъ программы на огин раз. Вредим другум, он ни может себе присмавлят. Kак вы палку комоту даёме, так у он будет людей управлят."

Edited August 7, 2008 by georges zaslavsky

[jamesf]

Thanks! I'm glad you were able to read the sample. What is your general impression of the typeface so far? I noticed right away there are few opportunities for ascenders in cyrillic. Is this common in handwriting?

[Daosus]

Correct, almost no ascenders. Reading Cyrillic cursive is a huge pain because every word looks like "minimum" in English. I could read it without problems (can't speak to grammar/spelling as my Russian is horrible) but the lowecase "t" looks a little lopsided. This may be a good way to avoid the problem I mentioned before, though, so you may not want to change it.

[le chat serein]

Seems like Cyrillic is what you're more concerned with, but I'll toss in what I know about Greek in case any of it's useful. I've studied Attic Greek (the language used in the Athenian city-state in the time of Socrates/Plato/Aristotle) to a significant degree, and to my knowledge, there is no provision in the alphabet for cursive. The characters stand separate from one another in all cases I've seen. I actually don't know if there's any practice of cursive writing in modern Greek.

 

Good luck!

 

Adam

[jamesf]

Thank you, Daosus. I think I will keep that lowercase 't.'

 

le chat serein, I got the same impression from googling "cursive greek." It's just doesn't connect well. But I did find this specimen of Greek letters in Copperplate style:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/jamespf/601px-Greek_Handwriting.jpg

 

This must look so funny to readers of Greek but I will post it anyway. This is what I came up with. The text is from a dummy text generator. I know zero Greek words

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/jamespf/greekfnpsample.jpg

Please help. I don't really know what I'm doing. Were you able to read it well? Which forms jump out at you? (too weird, wrong form, unrecognizable etc.)

 

 

Seems like Cyrillic is what you're more concerned with, but I'll toss in what I know about Greek in case any of it's useful. I've studied Attic Greek (the language used in the Athenian city-state in the time of Socrates/Plato/Aristotle) to a significant degree, and to my knowledge, there is no provision in the alphabet for cursive. The characters stand separate from one another in all cases I've seen. I actually don't know if there's any practice of cursive writing in modern Greek.

 

Good luck!

 

Adam

 

[le chat serein]

le chat serein, I got the same impression from googling "cursive greek." It's just doesn't connect well. But I did find this specimen of Greek letters in Copperplate style:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/jamespf/601px-Greek_Handwriting.jpg

 

This must look so funny to readers of Greek but I will post it anyway. This is what I came up with. The text is from a dummy text generator. I know zero Greek words

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/jamespf/greekfnpsample.jpg

Please help. I don't really know what I'm doing. Were you able to read it well? Which forms jump out at you? (too weird, wrong form, unrecognizable etc.)

 

 

Ok, so that's pretty readable, but I'll tell you what I had trouble with.

 

1) Third character, second to last word, first line. I assume it's a zeta? It's pretty unrecognizable, but I just went with that. If it is a zeta, it's kind of...backwards.

 

2) All your lambdas dip below the line on which they appear. This is bad. Lambda should rest on the line, one exception being that the longer line may dip below it slightly. The shorter of the two, though, should be entirely above the "baseline" if I can call it that. (Don't know that "baseline" isn't the correct term, but I don't know if it is.)

 

3) A lot of your nus that appear within words are hard to read. You have that connecting stroke coming from the top of the nu and going to the next letter (especially where it's followed by alpha and eta. Notably not when followed with omega and tau), and it's really confusing. I had to skip it and come back to it a few times before I figured out it was a nu.

 

Anyway, I think I'll play around with trying to write it cursive-ly and if I come up with anything passable, I'll scan it and show you.

 

Adam

[jamesf]

1. Yes it's a zeta. I think I will use the form from this image (middle character)

http://www.xanthi.ilsp.gr/filog/media/anim_gifs/Anim06.gif

 

2. Thanks for correcting this. I wasn't sure because the font I'm using as a reference has the lambda dipping as low as the rho with the bifurcation barely hanging onto the baseline.

 

3. Could you be referring to the kappa? I used the last letter from this sample but I think I went too cursive-y. My nu is similar to a Latin v and doesn't have a connecting stroke in the sample above. I guess this means both letters need a makeover.

http://www.xanthi.ilsp.gr/filog/media/anim_gifs/Anim10.gif

 

Thanks for the feedback. I look forward to your sample. It would be invaluable. I will post another sample once I've made the necessary changes.

 

 

[QM2]

Here's what I have so far. How legible is it? I hope it doesn't look too

'second grade student.' Please critique the forms. Thanks!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/jamespf/cyrillictest2.jpg

I have no clue what the text says. I got it from a dummy text generator.

 

 

jamesf -- the handwriting does not look Russian, so I have a hard time processing it as such. My brain keeps reading the Latin version of the letters -- for instance the Russian "r" as "p", the "t" as "m", and so forth.

 

The grammar and syntax in that sample are very, very wrong -- this paragraph seems to have been (mis)generated by some translation program, rather than a person.

 

Here is the correct text in Russian: "Приклютчения ом бас толка можна даждача. Мы можем даждача всего ом всех.Он оркестравалъ эмо сам с усилями потому чмо он програмипабалъ программы на огин раз. Вредим другум, он ни может себе присмавлят. Kак вы палку комоту даёме, так у он будет людей управлят."

 

Georges -- sorry, but that is also very incorrect. The syntax, grammar and spelling are wrong in every sentence. Where did you get this?..

[jamesf]

jamesf -- the handwriting does not look Russian, so I have a hard time processing it as such. My brain keeps reading the Latin version of the letters -- for instance the Russian "r" as "p", the "t" as "m", and so forth.

 

Please give me advice on how to make these letters look Russian. I have no grasp on what "Russian-y" cursive looks like. Also I assumed that these letters are completely identical in form hence being "false friends" with their Latin look-alikes. I found this to be the case in most handwriting fonts that support Cyrillic (in most cases the same glyph is used!). What can I do to make them "Russian?" It would be nice if you could provide a grammatically correct sample paragraph but I'm most concerned about the usability of the typeface among Cyrillic users.

[QM2]

Please give me advice on how to make these letters look Russian. I have no grasp on what "Russian-y" cursive looks like.

 

It is not the individual letters, but the overall "gestalt" look of the handwriting that doesn't seem right. Russian speakers do not write like this. I will try to locate some images on line for you of "authentic" Russian handwriting, or else write a paragraph myself and scan it at the office on Monday.

 

Also I assumed that these letters are completely identical in form hence being "false friends" with their Latin look-alikes.

 

Yes. Ironically, that is part of the problem. Because the letters are identical in form, it is all the more important that the writing has a Russian "look" to it, so that people process it as such and don't keep trying to read the letters as Latin. Do you see what I mean?..

 

What can I do to make them "Russian?" It would be nice if you could provide a grammatically correct sample paragraph but I'm most concerned about the usability of the typeface among Cyrillic users.

 

I cannot re-write that paragraph, because (1) It is just soo wrong that I am not even sure what it is supposed to say and (2) I do not have a cyrillic keyboard on my computer. If you want an authentic text sample, why don't you just use a paragraph from an online news source, such as this?

 

http://www.pravda.ru/news/world/former-uss...8/279648-most-0

...

В Грузии взорван мост, по которому проходит железнодорожная магистраль, соединяющая восток и запад страны. МИД Грузии возложил ответственность на российские войска, Минобороны РФ всё отицает.

 

"Поврежден железнодорожный мост на участке Гори-Тбилиси, который находится в 40 км от Гори. В настоящее время ведутся работы по уточнению размеров причиненного ущерба. Для доставки товарных вагонов в Армении разрабатываются альтернативные маршруты", - сказала пресс-секретарь министерства транспорта и связи Армении Сусанна Тоноян. Она также сообщила, что в результате взрыва железнодорожного моста на участке Гори-Тбилиси 72 товарных вагона не могут попасть в Армению.

...

Edited August 16, 2008 by QM2

[le chat serein]

1. Yes it's a zeta. I think I will use the form from this image (middle character)

http://www.xanthi.ilsp.gr/filog/media/anim_gifs/Anim06.gif

 

2. Thanks for correcting this. I wasn't sure because the font I'm using as a reference has the lambda dipping as low as the rho with the bifurcation barely hanging onto the baseline.

 

3. Could you be referring to the kappa? I used the last letter from this sample but I think I went too cursive-y. My nu is similar to a Latin v and doesn't have a connecting stroke in the sample above. I guess this means both letters need a makeover.

http://www.xanthi.ilsp.gr/filog/media/anim_gifs/Anim10.gif

 

Thanks for the feedback. I look forward to your sample. It would be invaluable. I will post another sample once I've made the necessary changes.

 

Haha, yes, I was looking at kappa. No wonder. I should have known, though, as I have seen kappa made in that way before. As far as I know, it passes for correct, but is less common than a more "k" looking kappa.

 

Well, I was only going to post a sample if I could make anything like cursive in Greek (which I have attempted and cannot do), but if you'd like, I can post a sample of some of my writing in Greek just so you can have a reference to that.

 

Let me know.

 

Adam

[QM2]

jamesf:

 

Okay, on second thought --

 

After examining your sample handwritten text closer, most of the letters are actually okay, but the overall "crookedness" of the font -- which is intentional, I understand -- is not typical of Russian handwriting. Russian handwriting is usually more angular and even. But that in itself may be okay.

 

Basically, I would like to see a gramatically correct, normal paragraph written in your font, before I can comment. This sample text you wrote is just so bizarre that it is impossible to read.

 

Can you write this using your font?

В Грузии взорван мост, по которому проходит железнодорожная магистраль, соединяющая восток и запад страны. МИД Грузии возложил ответственность на российские войска, Минобороны РФ всё отицает.

 

Also, there are 2 specific letters that I suggest should be altered a bit: The Russian "t" needs to be more even on both sides, and the Russian "g" needs to be more angular on the top bend, rather than rounded as you currently have it. The other letters may be okay -- but I have to see a "normal" text to comment further!

 

Hope this makes sense,

QM2

[jamesf]

It is not the individual letters, but the overall "gestalt" look of the handwriting that doesn't seem right. Russian speakers do not write like this. I will try to locate some images on line for you of "authentic" Russian handwriting, or else write a paragraph myself and scan it at the office on Monday.

Thank you in advance. Right now I only have 4 references. The two images given to me on the first page and two small images from a wikipedia article. They're helpful but cannot possibly represent real handwriting. I will take whatever specimen you can give me. I need all the help I can get.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/jamespf/cyrillicnormal.jpg

 

Just to summarize and paraphrase your advice so far:

1. 't' should be symmetric

2. 'g' needs a pointier head

3. overall look should be even and angular

 

The third one is the most difficult because I consciously tried to avoid pointiness lest all I see is a string of Лs. As it is, I have a hard time distinguishing them from 8+ other characters! :roflmho:

[jamesf]

Haha, yes, I was looking at kappa. No wonder. I should have known, though, as I have seen kappa made in that way before. As far as I know, it passes for correct, but is less common than a more "k" looking kappa.

 

Well, I was only going to post a sample if I could make anything like cursive in Greek (which I have attempted and cannot do), but if you'd like, I can post a sample of some of my writing in Greek just so you can have a reference to that.

 

Let me know.

 

Adam

 

Any handwritten sample would be much appreciated. I'm feeling a loss of ambition in developing a cursive Greek. I made a cursive majuscule set too to complement it but it must look totally ridiculous! Here's a sample of the caps.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/jamespf/greekallcaps.jpg

 

 

[le chat serein]

http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o467/le_chat_serein/greek2.jpg

 

The caps set that you're happy with is fine, I think, except that the xi doesn't need the vertical line. Three parallel lines will suffice, as long as the top and bottom are wider than the center. The omega is a form I've never seen before, and I'm not sure if it's right. I'd have to see it in context to really be able to tell if it's recognizable.

 

The cursive set is actually pretty readable. The capital iota is a little weird and contemporary cursive looking. The lowercase zeta is still pretty weird. The lowercase in my alphabet might be something to try and incorporate. It's cursive-y, and definitely more identifiable.

 

Your text sample is also pretty readable, excepting the apostrophes that you have within words. I can't remember the correct terminology for that mark, but (at least in Attic Greek) it's only used at the beginning of a word to mark whether the vowel is aspirated or not. In the text I copied from Plato, for instance, the first word would be pronounced "a-por-EE-a" (because the accent is over the iota), but the word after Prometheus is "HANE-tin-a". The "apostrophe" faces out when the vowel is not aspirated and in when it is.

 

Hope this is helpful.

 

Adam