Super Fine Nail of a Nib?

[Nihontochicken]

Here's perhaps the reverse of an oft-asked question. When I was more actively practicing calligraphy, I had trouble with very fine lines, in part because of my limited ability to draw the necessary lines quickly. I was using dip pens, unaware back then that the flex in the nibs was causing irregularity in the line width. Well, I mean I was aware of it, perhaps better said I was unaware that there was any viable alternative, though I did try a very fine Rapidograph-style pen, better, but no cigar. Sooooo, what I'd like to ask now is what is the finest, absolute nail of a nib available? A standard Parker 51 fine would be too wide. Would a custom 51 nib be the best choice, or is there a common retail alternative? Hero 237-1, maybe?

[jmkeuning]

The 237-1 should work! The sailor XF is also fine and stiff. As is the Cross Solo XF.

[Splicer]

You got flex from a rapidograph???? or was there some other problem with using the rapidograph?

 

You'll never find anything less flexy than a rapidograph. If you are getting line variation out of a rapidograph, try holding the pen at a 90 degree angle to the plane of the paper. Just as fountain pens like to be written with at an angle, rapidographs like to be written with straight up.

[Nihontochicken]

Thanks to James and Splicer for responding (so far). Re

 

You got flex from a rapidograph???? or was there some other problem with using the rapidograph?

 

No, no flex, but the line was not as narrow as I'd like, plus I had no control over the ink in the art store bought, throw away pen that I got, it was more gray than black, and tended to run into the gouache artwork paint that I was trying to outline. Part of the problem, flex aside, is that in addition to a nail of a nib, I need a really black, preferably permanent, ink (generally not FP friendly).

[ANM]

Koh in noor rapidographs are not throw away pens, will take any bottled ink ( but are designed for india type ink) and come in a choice of widths, including some very fine.

[Phthalo]

Try a Sailor Comics/Manga/Sketch Desk Pen (Part No. 12-9072) or a Platinum Carbon Desk Pen (Part No. DP-800S) with Sailor Kiwagura or Platinum Carbon waterproof black ink. I use these EF steel-nibbed pens for all my drawing and watercolour work.

 

For a XXXF/0.2mm equivalent, try a Pilot DPP-100 Desk Pen - that particular steel EF creates hairlines. Not adjusted for waterproof inks like the Platinum or Sailor Desk Pens, so you may need to experiment with inks as hard-starting can occur.

Edited June 13, 2008 by Phthalo

[Splicer]

A Koh-I-Noor (or other brand) Rapidograph can be gotten pretty easily in a 0.13 width (6x0). Koh-I-Noor's Ultradraw or Rapidraw ink each leaves a little to be desired as far as blackness is concerned, but reportedly you can fill them with Speedball Superblack, which puts Old Manhattan and Heart of Darkness to shame. I'd clean a technical pen with Superblack in it religiously if I were you.

 

You might have to go to a source outside the US, but Rotring (and probably other brands) Rapidographs or Isographs are available in a 0.10mm width. That's what Richard Binder calls XXXXF (and both the 0.13mm(6x0) and 0.18mm(4x0) widths are narrower than his XXXF, which is 0.20mm)

 

A 0.13mm rapidograph will probably run you about $25. You'll probably have to spend twice that to get 0.10mm, since you have to factor in overseas shipping and brands that are more expensive than Koh-I-Noor to begin with.

 

Other than that, my Rotring 600s tend to leave a very consistent line, but just eyeballing the line from an EF it looks about as thick as a 00 (0.35mm) RB calls XF 0.40mm, so I'm probably in the ballpark there.

[Have Fun]

It's been years since I tried paint sketches or Rapidos but I would imagine that a steel pointed rapidograph would cut / scratch into a gouache overlay of paint & the point could get clogged especially with very thin nibs

If this ink bleeds into the gouache then maybe the paint or paper isn't dry enough

 

Rapidographs work best on smooth paper & that's where you get line consistency - an extra layer of paint doesn't help much

 

There are also a number of felt tip Throw Away fine line pens used for drafting ~ eg Staedtler Pigment Liners : These nibs are graded in the same way as Rapidos & I always found that ink to be on the grey side ~ Try Staedtler Mars Professional these have replaceable nibs & ink cartridges & should (I imagine) ride over the gouache without cutting into it.

 

As inks go I always used Mars Staedtler or Faber Castell & I found Rapido ink to clog more easily

You would need to buy a permanent ink to avoid bleeding The inks designed for drawing on film may work better for you

 

Good luck it would be nice to see a drawing sample

[vermiculus]

The Esterbrook 9555 is a very good Firm XF. I have a 9556 in a dip-less which I use for numbers, noting and sketching.

[donwinn]

I have some XXF pens for sale for $27.50 each including shipping to US. Susan Wirth loved them when she was at the Dallas Pen Show. The pen looks like an Exacto knife, but the nib is sharper. Here are some photos of the pen, and a scan of the writing, compared to some other pens. If you want one, send me a PM and I will give you paypal info. I will be in Austin Friday and Saturday, and Fathers Daying on Sunday, so it would be Monday before I could ship a pen.

 

Donnie

[Nihontochicken]

Thank you all for your input. Wow! It will take me some time to sift and sort through all the suggestions to see what to try first.

 

Good luck it would be nice to see a drawing sample

 

Here is a practice page of versals done quite a while back using various combinations of ink (both permanent and non-permanent), plus gouache and acrylic paints (graphic shows oversize on my screen as compared to the original). Not of the quality I'd generally be willing to share with others, save the kind-hearted, caring, considerate, supportive and non-judgmental people in FPN.

 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v139/nihontochicken/Versals1.jpg

[MYU]

I suggest an Esterbrook manifold nib, like an 8461 or 9461. The manifolds are supposed to be rigid enough for making carbon copies. Also, I recently bought a Rotring 600 with an EF nib--very, very firm and super thin line. That could suit your purposes as well.

[antoniosz]

Well as suggested Japanese fines are really great - but they are soft.

The ultimate fines are in Sheaffers of the 30s. Any Balance with a fine nib will do.

Ultimate nail

[grimakis]

Triumph Nib = No Flex...

[wspohn]

Nice versals, mate!

 

One of my day to day favourite pens is a Parkere 51 with an XF nib - can't see you needing finer than that.

 

The Waterman Edson (and to some degree the Carene) uses a very stiff nib, although finding an XF may be a bit challenging.

 

One way out would be to have Richard do you up a Vanishing Point in a super needlepoint. It is very stiff and you can write your name on a grain of rice - probably twice. Just watch out you don't poke yourself as the 'needlepoint' name really describes it (don't ask how I know).

[wspohn]

Let me add another that occurred to me. The Platinum line (at least in their President model) includes a UEF nib, or ultra extra fine.. And that's exactly what it is. Recommended.

[Deirdre]

Triumph Nib = No Flex...

As I've discovered. I don't actually need flex (I write too quickly for it to be a useful feature), but I do like a little softness.

[ncb]

Sailor 1911m 14k Hard Fine. Far stiffer than their 21k nib 1911 counterparts.

[O'Hare]

The Sailor school pen - the one I used felt like I brushed ink on a nail (not dipped) and wrote with it. Not bad if you need such a fine line, and the flow was consistent.

Edited June 23, 2008 by O'Hare