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Wyvern and Ingersol


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#1 jhmclearly

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 18:51

The green pen below is clearly marked Wyvern and yet is identical to a couple of Ingersol's I've seen turn up on Ebay. In fact until I found the Wyvern I thought the shape was peculiar to Ingersol.

The pen below is a 'craftsman' which I'm assuming is a sub-brand of Wyvern but is in a colorway that is the same as the couple of Ingersols that I've seen.

Does anyone know of a connection between the two companies and was the English Ingersol the same company as the American one ?

Just curious.

Cheers

John

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#2 Univer

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Posted 15 May 2008 - 19:06

Hello there,

No answer, I'm afraid; but plenty of bystander interest. Years ago I picked up an English Ingersoll in a really lovely lovely lapis celluloid; the pen is identical in design to your example, except for the filler lever, which is a plain bar affair. Mine bears the barrel imprint "No. 10" - presumably the model designation. (The nib, regrettably, was a lost cause - it's since been replaced with an appropriately sized Warranted.)

For my part, I would be very interested to know whether the two Ingersolls were connected (interested in the Wyvern connection as well).

Cheers,

Jon

#3 garnet

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:21

The Wyvern Fountain Pen Co was formed in 1895 by David and Alec Finburgh. The company was original called The Finburgh Bros' who made a black hard rubber eye dropper which they called 'The Wyvern' they later changed their name to The Wyvern Fountain Pen Company when they started to market their pens abroad, particularly Australia. It was customary in the early 20 century, as it still is today for nearly all 'makers' of fountain pens to source the parts from parts manufacturers. To keep costs down pen manufactures would order parts from off the shelf. So it is inevitable that the same pen part can very easily turn up on a multitude of pens from different pen manufacturers.

The main body parts such as cap, section and barrel would have been made at the manufactures premises but most other parts would be bought in. Wyvern used generic nibs up until about 1928 when they purchased the tooling to press the nibs and stamp them with their logo. After all how common is the nib engraving:- Warranted 14ct First Quality. Do you think all manufacturers chose to make they nibs identical to those of a competitors?

What I am trying to get at is that nearly all pen manufacturers were in reality 'Pen Assemblers'.

A lot of manufacturers also assembled pens for rival companies. For example Wyvern assembled for Curzon, John Bull & Conway Stewart. They also manufactured (assembled) lower quality 'No Name Pens' as did most other companies.

In conclusion it is safe to say that most pens manufactured in the first half of the twentieth century were merely a permutation of parts. So inevitably some pens can resemble other pens and may even have been assembled in each others factories.

I hope this may have answered your question as to the similarity between the two pens. I'm not sure about any connec tion between Wyverrn and Ingersoll but they did have a connection with Curzon and Soennecken.
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#4 Johnny Appleseed

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Posted 31 July 2008 - 17:09

I am not sure about who made the English Ingersol's, but I suspect there was no direct relationship with the US Ingersolls. Of course, there were two US Ingersolls.

The Charles Ingersoll Dollar Pen Co. made a series of somewhat unique twist-fillers (and a few lever fillers) in nickel-plated brass, celluloid and Bakelite. They were in existance from 1924 to 1931 (roughly) and I suspect had no connection with the other Ingersolls.

The Ingersoll Redipoints were made from 1922 to sometime into the 30s and 40s. They were made by the Redipoint Corporation, which became Ingersoll-Redipoint when William Ingersoll, nephew of Charles Ingersoll, left the Robert Ingersoll and Bros company that made the Dollar watches. William Ingersoll was the Vice-President of Advertising at Robert Ingersoll and Bros, and went on to become a major advertising guru. I suspect he only brought his name and marketing skill to Redipoint and did not bring any changes to the manufacture.

I suspect that the English Ingersolls may have been connected to the Ingersoll watch co, which started out as Robert Ingersoll and Bros., but was forced to sell out from under Robert and Charles Ingersoll in 1922. Ingersoll was sold to the Waterbury Watch Company and went on to be very successful. There was an English branch, which I think then later sold the pens, but I am really speculating at this point.

John
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Always looking for pens by Baird-North, Charles Ingersoll, and nibs marked "CHI"

#5 jhmclearly

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 12:12

So that would suggest that the Wyvern Pen Co. made the pens for the English branch of the Ingersoll Watch Co. (later Waterburys) ?

Many thanks for the help so far. Anyone else out there who can help ?

#6 Shangas

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 12:29

Sorry to interrupt, but what WAS the Ingersoll company?

I read that they manufactured dollar pocket watches. But that they also manufactured dollar fountain pens. Is it the same company? What was their field/business? To produce affordable tools and items that anybody could buy, or what?
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#7 Johnny Appleseed

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 16:07

QUOTE (Shangas @ Aug 5 2008, 05:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Sorry to interrupt, but what WAS the Ingersoll company?

I read that they manufactured dollar pocket watches. But that they also manufactured dollar fountain pens. Is it the same company? What was their field/business? To produce affordable tools and items that anybody could buy, or what?


There was no single Ingersoll company. The watch company was not formally connected to either of the Ingersoll pen companies in the US, though the Ingersoll family connected them

Robert Ingersoll and Bro., Inc. was a watch company from the late 1800s to 1922. They made and popularized a railroad-accurate pocket watch that sold for 1$, thus the Dollar Watch moniker. The owners were Robert and his brother Charles Ingersoll. Their nephew William Ingersoll, was VP of Advertising.

In 1922 the companies creditors forced the sale of the company to the Waterbury Company, which reorganized it as the Ingersoll Watch Co. The new owners built on the previous companies success and continued to succeed well into the 1950s - among other things they partnered with Disney to make the famous Mickey-mouse watches.

After the Ingersoll family lost the Ingersoll watch co.:
Charles Ingersoll started the Charles Ingersoll Dollar Pen Co. in 1924
William Ingersoll joined with the Redipoint Co. of St. Paul MN, which became Ingersoll-Redipoint.

Niether pen company was formally connected to the Watch company, as both Charles and William were no longer part of the Ingersoll watch company. However, they both capitalized on the name recognition of the watch company, particularly Charles Ingersoll, who heavily used his role in the watch company in advertising, including phrases like "The man who made the dollar famous. . ." and ". . . who sold 16 million dollar watches. . ." He was clearly following the same basic business plan - make a well made product that costs only $1 so anyone (nearly) could buy.

There is also Ingersoll-Rand, which is and was a machinary manufacturer unrelated to either the watch or pen companies.

QUOTE
So that would suggest that the Wyvern Pen Co. made the pens for the English branch of the Ingersoll Watch Co. (later Waterburys) ?


Well, one could speculate on that, and it seems to make sens. I would like to know a little more about the English Ingersoll pens. Incidentally, they came well after the sale of Robert Ingersoll and Co. to Waterbury, so if it was the Ingersoll Watch co it was the later incarnation (Waterbury kept the Ingersoll name and most post-sale Ingersoll watches are simply marked "Ingersoll" , though there seems to have been a time when they went by "Ingersoll-Waterbury").

It is also possible that they were produced by some branch of Ingersoll-Rand, though I would expect them to have the Ingersoll-Rand imprint if that were the case.

John
So if you have a lot of ink,
You should get a Yink, I think.

- Dr Suess

Always looking for pens by Baird-North, Charles Ingersoll, and nibs marked "CHI"

#8 terim

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Posted 24 April 2015 - 00:36

Here's an Ingersoll remarkably similar to the green one that started this post ... the end of the lever is straight, unlike the green one's. Mine doesn't have a clip either.

 

ingersol_10s_lapis_5.jpg

ingersol_10s_lapis_4.jpg

ingersol_10s_lapis_2.jpg

 

Very nice flexible nib.

 

TERI


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#9 rwilsonedn

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Posted 24 April 2015 - 19:09

Teri:

That is one beautiful piece of celluloid. But the tipping looks like it's in trouble.

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#10 terim

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 14:45

Teri:
That is one beautiful piece of celluloid. But the tipping looks like it's in trouble.
ron


From the top the tipping is uneven, but it's just fine when you look at the underside ... Very uniform.
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#11 rwilsonedn

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 18:55

From the top the tipping is uneven, but it's just fine when you look at the underside ... Very uniform.

Ah, yes. Craftsmen used to do things by hand ...

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#12 peterg

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 21:12

The blue Ingersoll pen nib looks like it was made by Langs. The lack of tipping material is typical of the 1930's English product. The big blobs are more typical of the 1950's.

 

I've never heard it suggested before that Wyvern assembled pens for Conway Stewart, or Langs for that matter. In Conway's case they did have a limited number pens made by Langs during the war and when they were setting up their new factory but I would be surprised if they used a company best known for their low end products whereas John Bull was a brand whose pens were manufactured by numerous companies.








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