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Permanent black or blue/black ink needed.


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#1 Shangas

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 11:22

Hi everyone,

I find myself needing some permanent ink. Either black or blue/black. Nice and dark and waterproof etc etc...you know the drill.

In recent months, I find myself filling out a lot of important forms. Mother dearest suggests I use a ballpoint pen instead of a fountain pen to fill out these forms, as fountain pen ink will smear and stain if the paper gets wet in the mail. I despise ballpoint pens. They make my hands hurt. And I'd much rather use a fountain pen or dip-pen to get the job done.

Now you know why I need permanent ink. Given the criteria above (nice and dark) - what would you suggest?

Also - What is Noodler's Permanent Black like? And where would I be able to find it in Melbourne? I can find inks pretty easily in Melbourne, but not all the time...it's annoying. Also, how does one test if ink really is permanent?
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#2 leftnose

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 11:32

While I'm relatively new to the world of 'boutique' inks, it's my understanding that if you want something truly waterproof and permanent, Noodler's is pretty much your only choice. Their permanent inks bond to the cellulose in the paper so they can't be washed away. They also have a line of near-bulletproof inks where only one of the colors is permanent and the others will wash away.

If you take a look at the ink review forum here, you can see samples of many of Noodler's ink including their bullet proof black. Personally, I don't really like black ink for forms because it doesn't stand out enough. So, based on the samples, I would take a look at Noodler's Aircorp Blue Black (near bullet proof) and their near bulletproof Blue Black.

#3 Immoteus

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 11:35

Noodler's Black aside there is also Pilot's Security ink, Diamine's Registar Ink and MB's Blue-Black (Iron-gall) ink. J.Herbin makes security ink as well but it is only made for dip pens.
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#4 Shangas

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 11:40

I understand that some blue-blacks/permanent inks can be damaging to fountain pens. I'll probably use this ink with a dip-pen. I have one particular nib which is both tough and consistent. It produces nice thin, even lines without any horrible blotching. I'll use that.
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#5 alexanderino

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 11:41

Noodler's Bulletproof Black is your best choice. Lives up to the hype, and that takes something special. It was my favourite black until I received the new and upcoming X-Feather.

As for Melbourne, the usual suspects don't seem to be carrying Noodler's! But try Dymocks, the Sydney stores carry Noodler's. Also, Pen City may still have it [though their website does not]. If you're unsuccessful, PM me.

#6 Shangas

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 11:47

I'll try and get Noodlers B/P black, then biggrin.gif

When I get some free time (I am SO BUSY with university work right now. Nibs are melting under the heat generated from the writing I have to do!!) I'll stop by Pen City (that great little hole-in-the-wall shop in the CBD! smile.gif ) and see if they have anything.

Anywhere else in Melbourne that might have it?

---

Forgot to ask: Is there anything I ought to know about Noodler's BP black? Is it safe to use in fountain pens? Safe to use in some fountain pens? Don't use it in fountain pens, keep to dip pens...? I have dip-pens, so I'm covered on that front if I need them.

Edited by Shangas, 14 April 2008 - 11:52.

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#7 Ondina

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 12:01

Lamy, Quink or MB Blue-Blacks are iron gall inks. The only proven ones to last, but also there is concern about the damage to the nib. I've used them in the past for over 10 years, hardly flushing a steel nib, and it only shows slight color alteration, the truth. I've been planning to go back to this type of ink for archival reasons and not to worried about the nib if the rest of the pen is non metallic.

Hope your forms look nice!.

#8 alexanderino

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 12:17

QUOTE(Shangas @ Apr 14 2008, 11:47 AM) View Post
Anywhere else in Melbourne that might have it?

Not that I know of. Sydney keeps me too busy to visit that lovely city yet rolleyes.gif

QUOTE
Forgot to ask: Is there anything I ought to know about Noodler's BP black?

The only 'problem' I know of is its viscosity/surface tension acting up with certain pens & converters: the ink reluctantly stays at the top; eventually, it may need some prodding. My Lamy Safaris do this, so I use syringe-filled cartridges wink.gif Other than that, it's flawless. All the goodness of iron gall inks with no rust surprises or maintenance headaches.

#9 JohnS-MI

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 13:29

I really like the Noodler's Black. It is currently the only black I'm using. At least for the first 80% of the converter-full, it is VERY well behaved.

I second the comments on surface tension; it does cling to the walls of the converter rather than run down to the feed. This is mainly a problem for the last 10-20% of the converter-full. Easiest solution is to refill early. If you have to use those last few drops, hold vertical and tap converter gently, or advance the piston downward pushing the ink down. (Watch the nib so you don't do it to the point of expelling ink).

Some of our experts say it can be more prone to clogging. I haven't had a problem, but I flush my pen every few fills. Also, I have only used it in converter pens. I could remove the converter and flush with an ear syringe (rubber bulb) if needed. I have not used it in my MB which is piston-fill and probably won't, but I have used it in several other pens, and always have at least one filled with it, mostly a Parker Sonnet.

The Noodler's Black does well with poor quality paper. With a fine nib, it even writes pretty well on newsprint, when most inks feather horribly. On original forms, this might be important.

#10 ArPharazon

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 13:34

I have been using Noodlers/Swishmix Eternal Nile Ebony without any issues for quite a while now. I've also recently started using Noodlers Bulletproof Legal Lapis and Violet Vote, and if anything these seem even better behaved (they both seem to flow a bit freer than the Nile Ebony). All of these are fully resistant to water . . . not only do they leave a permanent mark on the page, they are also quite resistant to releasing a 'smear' of ink when initially exposed to water (something you won't see with the 'near' bulletproof, since they lose part of their color).

I think Legal Lapis is a very nice conservative color for everyday use. It is rather dark blue with a hint of green.

Here are a couple scans from another thread I posted showing an over-time warm-water-soak comparison of Noodler's inks, and their initial reaction to getting wet . . .





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#11 Rapt

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 13:43

Let me add that Heart of Darkness is a fully permanent Noodler's black. From what I've seen people who have used lots of Noodler's like this one for how it behaves in FPs.

I certainly like it a lot. Its my preferred black ink at the moment.
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#12 limesally

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 13:49

QUOTE(Shangas @ Apr 14 2008, 05:40 AM) View Post
I understand that some blue-blacks/permanent inks can be damaging to fountain pens. I'll probably use this ink with a dip-pen. I have one particular nib which is both tough and consistent. It produces nice thin, even lines without any horrible blotching. I'll use that.


If you're really serious about using a dip pen and permanence is a priority for you, you could use india ink, you know, the kind with shellac in it. Pretty much bomb proof.

But for FP use, I agree with everyone else - Noodler's bulletproof black or one of the iron-gall blue-blacks from Lamy, MB, or Diamine.

As for safety - a quick search from just the last few days will give you sufficient diversity of opinion and experience tongue.gif . Myself, I restrict use of BP black to modern pens I can clean easily. But it's non-feathering/non-bleeding and very permanent.

#13 Shangas

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 14:03

I don't WANT to use a dip pen, I'm just saying I can, and will, if necessary smile.gif
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#14 limesally

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 14:08

QUOTE(Shangas @ Apr 14 2008, 08:03 AM) View Post
I don't WANT to use a dip pen, I'm just saying I can, and will, if necessary smile.gif


I just ran across a post saying that Noodler's is now available in Sydney, Australia. I know you've mentioned you're in Melbourne, but perhaps if you can't find it there, perhaps you could mail order.

#15 Spats McGee

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 14:26

I have recently begun using Noodler's Baystate Blue. It's not bulletproof, but it is waterproof. I don't know if it's really permanent enough for your purposes. I've also heard complaints that it can stain some pens, so read up on it before risking any highly-prized pens. I haven't used it long enough to give you a full review of it. I am actually only on my first converter of it. However, I can tell you that the color is a very vibrant blue, which I like for signatures and filling out forms.

Edited by Spats McGee, 14 April 2008 - 14:27.


#16 Songwind

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 14:38

QUOTE(alexanderino @ Apr 14 2008, 07:17 AM) View Post
The only 'problem' I know of is its viscosity/surface tension acting up with certain pens & converters: the ink reluctantly stays at the top; eventually, it may need some prodding. My Lamy Safaris do this, so I use syringe-filled cartridges wink.gif Other than that, it's flawless. All the goodness of iron gall inks with no rust surprises or maintenance headaches.


I had this happen briefly in the piston converter for my Libelle Epic. Basically, I just flicked the side of the pen for a second and it went away.

One flick/refill is worth it for the peace of mind wrt my manuscripts, I think. smile.gif
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#17 rufius

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 14:49

QUOTE(Shangas @ Apr 14 2008, 07:40 AM) View Post
I understand that some blue-blacks/permanent inks can be damaging to fountain pens. I'll probably use this ink with a dip-pen. I have one particular nib which is both tough and consistent. It produces nice thin, even lines without any horrible blotching. I'll use that.


The ones that would be damaging are going to be ones that contain iron gaul in them. If you use that type of ink you want to use it in a pen with no metal parts exposed to the ink except a gold nib.

I hear, have not used, that Noodler's Eternal Black is quite resilient. I need to get some permanent ink in the foreseeable future and will probably be picking up a bottle of it.

-Zac

#18 kadymae

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 15:02

QUOTE(rufius @ Apr 14 2008, 07:49 AM) View Post
If you use that type of ink you want to use it in a pen with no metal parts exposed to the ink except a gold nib.


Daily writing and a weekly flushing out with a weak detergent and water solution will keep a non-gold nib pen in good working order while filled with an Iron Gall ink.

(I speak from experience.)
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#19 Ondina

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 15:21

QUOTE(kadymae @ Apr 14 2008, 05:02 PM) View Post
QUOTE(rufius @ Apr 14 2008, 07:49 AM) View Post
If you use that type of ink you want to use it in a pen with no metal parts exposed to the ink except a gold nib.


Daily writing and a weekly flushing out with a weak detergent and water solution will keep a non-gold nib pen in good working order while filled with an Iron Gall ink.

(I speak from experience.)


Yeap, as said before, even steel nibs seem to stand iron-gall inks pretty well, and I've been not that diligent on the flushing part. As said, Montblanc and Quink BB were my daily inks 20 years back, and the FP -steel nib- still standing in pretty good shape (Stypen French made). As for additional interesting info, see http://home.att.net/...r/chemistry.htm. Hey, if Leonardo da Vinci and Rembrant used it for their work, is good enough for me, too.

#20 alexanderino

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Posted 14 April 2008 - 20:35

QUOTE(Rapt @ Apr 14 2008, 01:43 PM) View Post
Let me add that Heart of Darkness is a fully permanent Noodler's black.

Nathan T. has given it the highest permanent rating: bulletproof. I'm also very keen to try it out, not least because of the free Platinum Preppy pen wink.gif

QUOTE(limesally @ Apr 14 2008, 02:08 PM) View Post
I just ran across a post saying that Noodler's is now available in Sydney, Australia. I know you've mentioned you're in Melbourne, but perhaps if you can't find it there, perhaps you could mail order.

Yes, the QVB shop has a dozen bottles of Black.

QUOTE(Songwind @ Apr 14 2008, 02:38 PM) View Post
One flick/refill is worth it for the peace of mind wrt my manuscripts, I think. smile.gif

Absolutely smile.gif






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