Chartpak v. Noodler's (Round Two)

[Viseguy]

Honestly? I bought a pen.

 

You know, something to write with.

 

I happen to have a trés spendy Pelikan.

 

I intend to put ink in it (though I haven't yet).

 

That ink will likely be Noodler's.

 

If it requires repair a tidge more frequently? My bad.

 

That doesn't mean I'm not going to enjoy using my favorite ink in a pen I own.

 

I'm not a conservationist. I'm a writer.

My attitude, completely!

[Rick Propas]

Some time ago, I came to the conclusion that Noodler's ink should not be used in all vintage and most modern pens and stated on my website that its use would void the warranty on the pens I sell, particularly Pelikans. In return, I was publicly vilified by the maker of the ink, several of his retailers and others. I stand by that belief.

 

Now I read that Abigail Weeks, the repair technician at Chartpak, has, after several years of working with Pelikans on a daily basis, come to the same conclusion. I should note that Abi and I have never talked about inks.

 

Now you folks are free, of course, to believe what you want to and to do what you want to do. But it should give you pause when two people who are intimately involved with Pelikans on a daily basis over a long period of time tell you to stay away from the stuff.

[Deirdre]

Some time ago, I came to the conclusion that Noodler's ink should not be used in all vintage and most modern pens and stated on my website that its use would void the warranty on the pens I sell, particularly Pelikans.

If Pelikans are really that delicate, maybe I shouldn't have any.

 

On a lighter note: I use Noodler's because it gives me what no other line can: waterproof in a dizzying variety of colors. I do have non-Noodler's ink, of course (including the tried-and-true Waterman Blue), but for the bulk of my fountain pen use, I'm using Noodler's.

 

I do kinda wonder when I hear things like it contains shellac (no, you haven't said this that I know of) from people who claim that's why they won't use the ink. Especially when it's from otherwise well-informed people about modern pens and ink.

 

I don't use Noodler's in pens where I haven't personally cleaned it out, and I think most people aren't that good about cleaning their pens out. I've recently learned some better techniques here, so my pen cleaning will improve too.

 

Everyone needs to make their own call about what they use -- and why.

 

One thing I will say, because it really hasn't been emphasized in other threads, and maybe it should be:

 

When an ink is an observably different shade coming out of two pens, that means that in at least one of the two pens, it's reacting chemically with some aspect of the pen (or some ink residue). Unless it's a reaction with some ink residue in the pen, it's probably not a good thing. I have seen this come up time to time in ink reviews, though I haven't paid attention to ink or manufacturer.

[rlukcs]

With other products, such as printers it is quite usual that using ink/toner cartridges form any other maker but the maker of the printer voids the warranty. While I do see this as an unethical form of boosting the sales of their own product, I do not see any problem with the manufacturer making a sort of correlation analysis between repair cases and the type of ink used, and excluding those where the correlation is too high.

Of course, as a user I might choose to use the ink I want. Lifelong warranty is after all only a marketing trick; if I have used a pen for a few years without any problem it is very unlikely that defective materials or workmanship will come to light later on. It only means that I will have to do the maintenance (like cleaning or the eventual piston lubricating with silicone grease) myself, which I would do anyway, because of the shipping costs.

Edited April 4, 2008 by rlukcs

[Pinmin]

Some time ago, I came to the conclusion that Noodler's ink should not be used in all vintage and most modern pens and stated on my website that its use would void the warranty on the pens I sell, particularly Pelikans. In return, I was publicly vilified by the maker of the ink, several of his retailers and others. I stand by that belief.

 

Now I read that Abigail Weeks, the repair technician at Chartpak, has, after several years of working with Pelikans on a daily basis, come to the same conclusion. I should note that Abi and I have never talked about inks.

 

Now you folks are free, of course, to believe what you want to and to do what you want to do. But it should give you pause when two people who are intimately involved with Pelikans on a daily basis over a long period of time tell you to stay away from the stuff.

Well stated, and I'd be surprised if Richard Binder disagreed--he sees the ill effects on pens from various less-than-desirable inks. Unless you are going to flush w/ water constantly, it is hard to beat Waterman in both vintage and new (blue, black, blue-black) in terms of most-likely-to-provide-trouble-free-use. Rick, I am told Diamine brand would run a close second.

 

[Deirdre]

"Desirable" is a loaded word, though. Obviously, we don't all desire the same things from our inks.

[cmenice]

I have some problems with this thread. If there evidence that Noodler's will do damage to a pen that has been regularly cleaned and maintained...I want to see the evidence. Not only that, but the evidence should be submitted to the ink maker. Pictures, accounts where Noodler's has caused damage (not personal stupidity) and why.

 

I honestly find Abigail's answer unconvincing. Her response is written as if she just did some quick internet searches to find out about Noodler's inks. This is not evidence. Maybe she has hard evidence and is not sharing it. If there is evidence that Noodler's inks are harmful...wouldn't it be a service to FPN members to post this information? So please, if there is evidence...there is nothing wrong with posting it.

 

I love my Pelikans. They are my most favorite pens. At this point, I use Noodler's because they have a variety of colors and (for me) at least near bulletproof. I wouldn't want to harm my Pelikans. Every time I change inks I do a thorough cleaning (including cleaning nib and feed with a soft bristle toothbrush).

[Guest Roy]

I have a great deal of respect for the work Mr Propas does and should I purchase a pen from him he has explicitly stated the term of the warranty and I respect that.

 

Pelikan, however, does not explicitly state any restrictions on inks (other than one must use FP safe inks) so they either need to alter their warranty terms or shut up.

 

For the record, I only own one Pelikan, a Sahara, and in order to avoid staining issues (which I have seen with Diamine and Noodler's) I purchased Sailor's Gentle Ink.

 

--Roy

[griffin2020]

With other products, such as printers it is quite usual that using ink/toner cartridges form any other maker but the maker of the printer voids the warranty. While I do see this as an unethical form of boosting the sales of their own product, I do not see any problem with the manufacturer making a sort of correlation analysis between repair cases and the type of ink used, and excluding those where the correlation is too high.

Of course, as a user I might choose to use the ink I want. Lifelong warranty is after all only a marketing trick; if I have used a pen for a few years without any problem it is very unlikely that defective materials or workmanship will come to light later on. It only means that I will have to do the maintenance (like cleaning or the eventual piston lubricating with silicone grease) myself, which I would do anyway, because of the shipping costs.

The main reason that printer manufacturers do that is that they do not make much (or any) profit on the printer itself. Their profit is in the consumables, so it is a financial decision for them to word the warrantee in that way.

 

I do not think that this can be said of fountain pen and ink manufacturers.

[griffin2020]

When an ink is an observably different shade coming out of two pens, that means that in at least one of the two pens, it's reacting chemically with some aspect of the pen (or some ink residue). Unless it's a reaction with some ink residue in the pen, it's probably not a good thing. I have seen this come up time to time in ink reviews, though I haven't paid attention to ink or manufacturer.

Do you have a cite for this?

I think that you are forgetting that differnet pens lay down different amounts of ink, and with certain inks this can greatly affect the shade of the ink as it dries.

 

Here is a great example of an ink that tones and shades differently in different pens: Violette Pensee review

[limesally]

So here's my next question, respectfully addressed to Rick - would Noodler's regular inks, the non-bulletproof ones, void the warranties? I ask because I noted that use of Private Reserve inks also voids the warranty, and to my best understanding PR inks are mostly water soluble.

 

My use of Noodlers is limited, mostly due to issues of behaviour on the paper, rather than interaction with the pen. And, to be perfectly honest I don't enjoy cleaning pens as much as other people do, so it is probably better for someone like me to use more benign inks - like the Skrip I've allowed to dry up in school pens flung in the drawer for years :embarrassed_smile: . But I can't help being attracted to Noodlers for the colour and water resistance, and am constantly thinking that I'm going to try yet another one.

Edited April 4, 2008 by limesally

[Rick Propas]

To Sally and others,

 

As someone suggested above, Diamine (with which I have no connection other than as a retail customer), is a nearly ideal ink. It offers a wide array of rather rich colo(u)rs and is fairly gentle. It will stain more, however, than the truly gentle inks like Watermans and Quink. Still, I use it because I like color quite a bit of the time.

 

As far as PR, the policy stated on my website is rather overly simplistic, I fear, but for the sake of simplicity. I feel that PR, used carefully, is suitable, certainly, for modern pens and for many vintage. I'd avoid PR where staining could be an issue and I would avoid letting it dry out inside a pen.

 

Finally, I want to address an ad hominem attack on Abi at Chartpak. I have spoken to Abi numerous times, though not, as I stated above on inks. I assume, however, that she is familiar with the views stated on my site. Remember that Abi cannot and does not set Pelikan policy. But she is a very kind and conscientious person and wants to see people able to enjoy their pens without problems and Noodler's whether you all like to hear it or not, causes problems. I have seen more than one piston assembly attacked by the ink.

[andru]

By the way, this is a commercial trick really, "cellulose reactive dyes" I mean...Noodler Waterproof inks are waterproof because have a kind of synthetic polymer used in Arts and Adhesives,etc. works like a "coat" to protect the dye after the ink is complete dried ....this is the reason why this kind of ink looks "milky" ,white sediment in the bottle's bottom,no intense colour like the simple line...etc.

I would really like to hear the justification for this claim. My experience with mixing Noodler's waterproof inks with other inks is that, after rinsing the dry writing in water, the Noodler's component remains on the paper -- but the other component, if not waterproof, still rinses away as usual. (This is contrary to claims by Pendemonium that mixing will nullify the waterproof property of Noodler's -- they should probably update this information.)

 

It seems to me that this behaviour is in logical opposition to the claim that a coating polymer is used by Noodler's, since it should lock both the Noodler's and the non-waterproof dyes on the paper once dry, which it never does.

 

-Andrew

[Ondina]

To Sally and others,

 

As someone suggested above, Diamine (with which I have no connection other than as a retail customer), is a nearly ideal ink. It offers a wide array of rather rich colo(u)rs and is fairly gentle. It will stain more, however, than the truly gentle inks like Watermans and Quink. Still, I use it because I like color quite a bit of the time.

 

As far as PR, the policy stated on my website is rather overly simplistic, I fear, but for the sake of simplicity. I feel that PR, used carefully, is suitable, certainly, for modern pens and for many vintage. I'd avoid PR where staining could be an issue and I would avoid letting it dry out inside a pen.

 

Finally, I want to address an ad hominem attack on Abi at Chartpak. I have spoken to Abi numerous times, though not, as I stated above on inks. I assume, however, that she is familiar with the views stated on my site. Remember that Abi cannot and does not set Pelikan policy. But she is a very kind and conscientious person and wants to see people able to enjoy their pens without problems and Noodler's whether you all like to hear it or not, causes problems. I have seen more than one piston assembly attacked by the ink.

 

My own personal opinion is also the same. How many of you do still use a car gas, oil, etc that causes problems after they have been repeated warnings of other customers, professionals and the warranty issuer itself?

This said, I must admit I admire the great variety and innovation of Noodler's. Unfortunatedly I can't try many of them, but if I could, I would certainly doing this at my own risk, and not at the expense of a more than generous and efficient technical service.

Let's at least recognize that most, if not all, our admired FP professionals have shared identical points of view on this issue. We will all use the ink of our choice, but blindly defending it is just not our style, here, we all know better.

Enjoy pens and inks people! And that Spring is finally here!

[Deirdre]

I have some problems with this thread. If there evidence that Noodler's will do damage to a pen that has been regularly cleaned and maintained...I want to see the evidence. Not only that, but the evidence should be submitted to the ink maker. Pictures, accounts where Noodler's has caused damage (not personal stupidity) and why.

Agreed. As for now, I consider it hearsay.

I have a great deal of respect for the work Mr Propas does and should I purchase a pen from him he has explicitly stated the term of the warranty and I respect that.

 

Pelikan, however, does not explicitly state any restrictions on inks (other than one must use FP safe inks) so they either need to alter their warranty terms or shut up.

Also agreed.

[Deirdre]

When an ink is an observably different shade coming out of two pens, that means that in at least one of the two pens, it's reacting chemically with some aspect of the pen (or some ink residue). Unless it's a reaction with some ink residue in the pen, it's probably not a good thing. I have seen this come up time to time in ink reviews, though I haven't paid attention to ink or manufacturer.

Do you have a cite for this?

I think that you are forgetting that differnet pens lay down different amounts of ink, and with certain inks this can greatly affect the shade of the ink as it dries.

 

Here is a great example of an ink that tones and shades differently in different pens: Violette Pensee review

Actually -- I was thinking of some review I'd seen with more dramatic variation.

 

Sure, different pens lay down different amount of ink. That wasn't what I was referring to, though. It was 2 a.m. though, so I probably could have been clearer about what I meant if I'd been more awake.

[Rapt]

Anecdotal evidence is NOT evidence...

 

 

[Deirdre]

special Noodler's cellulose reactive dyes so that once dry on paper, it is permanent and waterproof."

By the way, this is a commercial trick really, "cellulose reactive dyes" I mean...Noodler Waterproof inks are waterproof because have a kind of synthetic polymer used in Arts and Adhesives,etc. works like a "coat" to protect the dye after the ink is complete dried ....this is the reason why this kind of ink looks "milky" ,white sediment in the bottle's bottom,no intense colour like the simple line...etc.

I'm guessing you haven't seen Dostoevsky, which is transparent. I also have an extensive collection of the Noodler's bulletproof inks. Having looked at all of them, no white sediment in the bottle's bottom.

 

They do dry duller than their non-BP counterparts, but I'd hardly call them not intense.

[Lloyd]

It's a shame this thread isn't on the Inky Thoughts subforum.

Edited April 4, 2008 by Lloyd

[cmenice]

I just want to add that none of my comments were aimed to attack Abi. I only seek truthful and knowledgeable answers and I thought the original poster's quoted email from Abi, was not "knowledgeable". I'm not saying that Abi is not knowledgeable as I have heard amazing things about the Chartpak service. My complaint is that there must be more of a reason than just saying something like

 

I should also add that we DO NOT recommend any water resistant, water proof or permanent types of inks, such as the two waterproof Noodler's inks that you have used in this Pelikan pen.

 

Below is some info that I quickly found on the internet:

 

"Iraqi Indigo is a deep violet and contains the special Noodler's cellulose reactive dyes so that once dry on paper, it is permanent and waterproof."

http://www.moleskinerie.com/2005/02/iraqi_indigo_a_.html

 

"I have a bottle of Fox Red. It is completely opaque. No transparency at all. Mine works well: waterproof, fade resistant. The color is a bit on the orange side of the red range. It is not quite as red as Cartridge Skrip or Levenger's Cardinal Red."

(Fountain pen network)

 

That is not useful. I try to hurt no feelings or attack anyone. If you knew me, you would know that I'm a curious person who constantly asks questions when something is unclear. My only desire is to learn, not harm.