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Older #149


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#1 talkinghead

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 00:17

Hi

I've search the sticky articles and searched this forum but can't seem to find the answer...

Does anybody know when MB transitioned from celluloid to resin in the 149 models. I'm thinking about 1960. The Pentrace article is unclear.

Speaking of that article, I use it for dating references but at the same time I have some inconsistancies..for instance I have a #149 (pen A) with a rounded feed, with grooves that extend the whole length of the feed. The Pentrace article says this is from the 50's, however I'm sure the pen is black resin and not celluloid, and has all the other "characteristics" of a 1960's pen. I have another #149, (pen b ) with the rounded feed where the longitudinal grooves go just down the sloped, flat portion of the feed. The Pentrace article dates that as a 60's pen. Unfortunately, this dating thing is an inexact science. Just for my own cataloging I'm calling pen A an early 60's pen, and pen B a late 60's pen. Sound about right to you all?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts,

Rick
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#2 Ed44

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 03:38

I'm thinking the transition was in the mid 60s but I'm sure the experts who really know will jump in with the answer. Wouldn't it be nice if someone wrote a book on the ubiquitous 149?

#3 penparadise

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 10:53

Hi Rick,

I have a lot of records – first-hand and second-hand – on the Montblanc Meisterstücks but some small differences (e.g. of the feeds) didn't interest me so much. But I might be able to answer some of your questions.

QUOTE(talkinghead @ Mar 29 2008, 01:17 AM) View Post
Does anybody know when MB transitioned from celluloid to resin in the 149 models. I'm thinking about 1960. The Pentrace article is unclear.
In production Montblanc changed from celluloid to resin in the 149 models in Autum 1960. But due to the stock at the Montblanc dealers the celluloid models might be sold for some more years.

QUOTE
Speaking of that article, I use it for dating references but at the same time I have some inconsistancies..for instance I have a #149 (pen A) with a rounded feed, with grooves that extend the whole length of the feed. The Pentrace article says this is from the 50's, however I'm sure the pen is black resin and not celluloid, and has all the other "characteristics" of a 1960's pen. I have another #149, (pen b ) with the rounded feed where the longitudinal grooves go just down the sloped, flat portion of the feed. The Pentrace article dates that as a 60's pen. Unfortunately, this dating thing is an inexact science. Just for my own cataloging I'm calling pen A an early 60's pen, and pen B a late 60's pen. Sound about right to you all?



First, there have been even some more differences in the feeds during the last 50 years.
Second, the chronological order on this pic isn't quite correct, from left to right the position 4 and 5 have to change. And now you might recognise some differences at the front of the grip sections which might you enable to get your pens in a chronological order as well.
Third, you can't classify the production year of a pen just by the feeds. Feeds are expendable items and Montblanc or some service points might have used new feeds while maintaining a pen. You might look for another attribute (which are more important to me):

If your 149 is a "light weight" and has a plastic filler thread then your pen was produced between 1960 and 1985. During this time the material of the 149' cap and barrel was "plastic" or simple black resin. In 1985 the material was changed to the more scratch-resistant "precious resin".

Axel




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collecting Montblanc safeties, eyedroppers, lever fillers, button fillers, compressors - all from 1908 - 1929,
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#4 talkinghead

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 15:56

QUOTE
I'm thinking the transition was in the mid 60s but I'm sure the experts who really know will jump in with the answer. Wouldn't it be nice if someone wrote a book on the ubiquitous 149?


I agree Ed..we need a nice book on the 149!

Yet... we do have Axel...who is the next best thing...

Axel, thanks for your input, I see on the grip section, the little lip you are talking about now..and that #4 and #5 should be reversed. Since my pens are not celluloid..for my cataloging and chronology, I'm gonna stay with what seems "a reasonable" guess, that pen A is an early 60's pen and pen B is a late 60's pen. Its just for my lists anyway, not gonna sell 'em, so wouldn't be misrepresenting them to anybody.

Thanks to all


Rick
MY-stair-shtook eyn-HOON-dairt noyn und FEART-seeg (Meisterstuck #149)
"the last pen I bought is the next to the last pen I will ever buy.."---jar
WTB: Sheaffer OS Balance with FLEX nibs
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#5 niksch

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 16:52

One of the main characteristics of the early resin 149 is the piston mechanism. As Mr Westerich pointed out to me several weeks ago, the first generation 149s had a friction fit piston mechanism. (Like the one you had the accident with Rick). At some point in the mid- to late-60s, MB began threading the piston mechanisms into the barrel, as they do now, and in a similar fashion to the '50s versions.

Rick- If you compare the gold ring of your two pens, pen A will not have two small slots for a tool. How about pen B? If it does, your piston mechanism is threaded into the barrel and indicated a later production, but we still don't really know exactly when that transition occurred.

Interestingly enough, I have found these '60s 149s to have a larger internal diameter than the more modern versions. The nylon seal is larger in size, but I don't have a photo handy to post to show the comparison. One could logically assume that these early resin pens hold more ink, but maybe the MB engineers developed another way to make up for the smaller internal diameter of the more modern 149s.

I would agree with 'penparadise' that a single characteristic is not necessarily the best way to determine a production year/period. Several factors should be considered since it appears to me from my limited repair experiences, and as 'penparadise' mentioned, that parts can generally be used/re-used in pens of differing production periods. I'm getting ready to do just that this weekend by assembling a 149 from the pieces and parts of a few broken pens. Repairing these pens is more of a hobby for me, and should I ever want to sell my franken-149, I would obviously disclose its history and price it accordingly.

With all of that rambling, I'll say that I rather like the early resin 149s. I like the perceived lighter weight, and I like the way the nibs feel to me, more flexible...I like them much better than the '80s & '90s 149s I've used.

Regards, Eric
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#6 georges zaslavsky

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 23:24

QUOTE(niksch @ Mar 29 2008, 05:52 PM) View Post
With all of that rambling, I'll say that I rather like the early resin 149s. I like the perceived lighter weight, and I like the way the nibs feel to me, more flexible...I like them much better than the '80s & '90s 149s I've used.

Regards, Eric

Same for me, my three vintage MB 149s from the 60's and 70's are some of my favorite and very best writers.

Pens are like watches , once you start a collection, you can hardly go back. And pens like all fine luxury items do improve with time

#7 talkinghead

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 00:29

QUOTE
niksch Posted Today, 12:52 PM
One of the main characteristics of the early resin 149 is the piston mechanism. As Mr Westerich pointed out to me several weeks ago, the first generation 149s had a friction fit piston mechanism. (Like the one you had the accident with Rick). At some point in the mid- to late-60s, MB began threading the piston mechanisms into the barrel, as they do now, and in a similar fashion to the '50s versions.

Rick- If you compare the gold ring of your two pens, pen A will not have two small slots for a tool. How about pen B? If it does, your piston mechanism is threaded into the barrel and indicated a later production, but we still don't really know exactly when that transition occurred.


Eric,
Pen B does not have the 2 holes and is thus a friction fit. So Maybe pen B is a "mid 60's" pen blush.gif LOL

QUOTE
georges zaslavsky Posted Today, 07:24 PM

Same for me, my three vintage MB 149s from the 60's and 70's are some of my favorite and very best writers.


Georges,
All I have are 60's and a 70's #149's and for me they are great writers too. I actually am a vertically challenged adult tongue.gif , and have smaller hands. The lighter feel of these plastic #149's balances their greater girth for me personally. I have a modern #146 with the brass piston mechanism and precious resin that is definitely a weightier pen.

Ok, the quest is on for the celluloid #149....peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for meals for awhile to save up for one of these beauties.(I say "one" in case the wife is watching! roflmho.gif )

Thanks everybody for their responses. I love these dialogues!

Rick
MY-stair-shtook eyn-HOON-dairt noyn und FEART-seeg (Meisterstuck #149)
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WTB: Sheaffer OS Balance with FLEX nibs
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#8 Michael R.

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 16:10

QUOTE(talkinghead @ Mar 28 2008, 04:17 PM) View Post
I've search the sticky articles and searched this forum but can't seem to find the answer...



...this is a great topic!

I also like the MB 149; the older the better :-) Still my oldest is a late 60's early 70's model.

There are two great articles (part I+II) in older issues of Pen World International magazin which deals with "all" (???) possible variants of the 149 (nibs, feed, gripping section,...) which helps a lot.

I think it is still worth getthing those back issues just for those articles.

Cheers

Michael



#9 talkinghead

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Posted 30 March 2008 - 17:47

QUOTE(Michael R. @ Mar 30 2008, 12:10 PM) View Post
QUOTE(talkinghead @ Mar 28 2008, 04:17 PM) View Post
I've search the sticky articles and searched this forum but can't seem to find the answer...



...this is a great topic!

I also like the MB 149; the older the better :-) Still my oldest is a late 60's early 70's model.

There are two great articles (part I+II) in older issues of Pen World International magazin which deals with "all" (???) possible variants of the 149 (nibs, feed, gripping section,...) which helps a lot.

I think it is still worth getthing those back issues just for those articles.

Cheers

Michael


Michael,

Any chance you have those articles???..actually I think the Pentrace article author used those articles also as a reference. Not sure if it would violate copyright laws, but it would be awesome, if you have them, if you could scan them and email them to me. I would reimburse you of course for your time and trouble

Rick
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#10 pilgrim

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 04:35

another FPN members who is interested for the scan of the article!

#11 cafzal

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 15:26

Me too, as I have tried to find them on the web to no avail.

#12 FrankB

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Posted 31 March 2008 - 20:11

This will get cumbersome, but me three! I have also been unable to find those articles.

This is a great thread. Thanks.

#13 talkinghead

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 00:16

Hi all,

After communicating with Michael R. here, I've decided to just ask Mr. Gabay directly for reprints of his articles. I'm sure there are copyright issues, and as with any intellectual property, Mr. Gabay is entitled to any renumeraton concerning his work. I was able to find his email over at the Pentrace green board (thanks MichaelR!!). Below is the email that I sent him:

Hello Mr. Gabay,

I am writing on behalf of some fellow Montblanc collectors over at the Fountain Pen Network message boards. There is a Pentrace article written by Lex Villines that describes #149 characteristics that help date these wonderful pens. He cites your articles as a reference. ( Barry Gabay article in the December '02/January 03 and Feb/Mar 03 issues of Pen World magazine). It seems these back issues of Pen World magazine are hard to come by, and a number of us would like to to read these articles. Would it be possible to obtain reprints of these articles from you in some fashion? I think interested members over at the FPN Montblanc Forum certainly would be willing to purchase any reprints that you could provide, either hard copy or electronically. Below is a link to a current thread we have going concerning dating #149’s and your articles at FPN.

http://www.fountainp...showtopic=58260

As the originator of the thread at FPN, I felt I should be the one to go straight to the author for this request. A contributer to the thread stated that he thought he had copies of the Pen World issues we are seeking. I originally asked if he could just scan them for me, but after thinking about it, I got concerned about any copy right violations. You are certainly due any compensation for your work, thus we are asking you directly for reprints.

Please feel free to contact through this email address. I will then forward on any information on obtaining any reprints to those interested at the FPN Montblanc forum. Thanks very much for your time. I look forward to hearing from you.


Best regards,

Rick



As soon as I get a reply, I will post here.

Regards,

Rick
MY-stair-shtook eyn-HOON-dairt noyn und FEART-seeg (Meisterstuck #149)
"the last pen I bought is the next to the last pen I will ever buy.."---jar
WTB: Sheaffer OS Balance with FLEX nibs
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#14 talkinghead

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 01:05

Hi all,

Received a nice reply from Barry Gabay. Below is a copy of his response:

QUOTE
Hi Rick, Please, It's Barry, not Mr. Gabay. I'll be happy to send you photo-copies of the two-part article I wrote for Pen World. Please send me a mailing address, and I'll get them off in a couple of days. Lex Villlines' article for PenTrace was very interesting, and he was quite generous in his compliments of my piece. I've been thinking about joining FPN, so now seems an appropriate time. Thanks again for the contact. Feel free to copy the article for friends if you like. The copyright is Pen World's, not mine. I still write for Pen World, and it's my understanding that copies made for non-commercial purposes are OK. Thanks again for writing, and I look forward to hearing from you again. Best wishes, Barry


Once I get the articles, we'll have to figure out a way to distribute them to those that are interested. Any suggestions are welcome.

Rick
MY-stair-shtook eyn-HOON-dairt noyn und FEART-seeg (Meisterstuck #149)
"the last pen I bought is the next to the last pen I will ever buy.."---jar
WTB: Sheaffer OS Balance with FLEX nibs
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#15 cafzal

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 16:16

Thanks Rick, this certainly is good news for us MB fanatics.

Ron






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