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What are your eBay experiences?


Shamouti

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Hi Folks,

 

I've been going through eBay for about 10 years now and for the most part, it's been pretty great. What I like about eBay is you can find pens you can't find here locally. How many retailers do you know still sell Dunhill-Namiki Maki'e fountain pens? You certainly can't find them at Wal Mart!

 

Before I got into buying fountain pens online, I bought them from my local shop, but it required burning gas, and sometimes inflated retail costs. You can find some great buys from eBay, but half of the fun is just looking for that special item.

 

There's been some bad experiences too, I am sure for many of you as well. I've only had three, which is a great for the number of transactions I've done over the years.

 

So what are your experiences with eBay? Have you been a buyer or seller or both? Did you have any problems with customers or merchants? Share it with us!

 

This seems to be a good topic all of us in one way or another know about. Being honest and helpful in the FPN could really help a lot of newbies and effectively promote the good and right with each other too.

 

Cheers,

 

John

Edited by Shamouti
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I've given up buying on eBay for years now. It stopped being a pleasure when the raiders started slipping in last-minute bidding and won auctions away within the last 30 seconds. I gave up when I couldn't win anything. I'll use Buy It Now, or the marketplace at eBay that lets you buy something now. The auctions were too maddening. Garage sales are much better around here.

 

I permanently gave up after I lost $44 on two music CDs. The package came torn and empty since the seller had jammed the two in there so tightly. He insisted that as he had delivery confirmation his job was done. We went to eBay arbitration, they took my statement, and then... no response. I was out the money. I ended up downloading the music from iTunes.

 

I don't think I'd ever have a prayer of buying a fountain pen from eBay. Too stressful, too expensive, and... well, I like the marketplace here a lot better and a few online vendors I'm come to trust.

Is there life before death?

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I've slowly discovered some wonderful sellers and acquired some wonderful pens from some wonderful people. I have to concur that the sniping took a lot of the fun out - bad tempered people more intent on "winning" than the process of getting there.

 

But I still get deals, especially on the "make an offer" items. Haggling when both parties know what something should go for is almost as much fun as the REAL auctions used to be. :thumbup:

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Sniping is not bad or suspect behavior, it is simply using Fleabay's rules in one's own favor. Fleabay is not an on-line replica of the traditional auction. The traditional live auction is primarily bid limited, it continues on until no one ups the bid at the required increment. Fleabay is primarily time limited, any bid a fraction of a second after the set auction closing time is disregarded. In order to thwart sniping and replicate the traditional live auction, Fleabay could institute a new rule that any bid placed within the last, say, fifteen minutes of the auction will extend the auction closing time another fifteen minutes from the time of that bid. The the auction would primarily become bid limited, not time limited. Of course, the auction could go on for quite some time in near fifteen minute increments, and this would cost Fleabay some "time is money" (but perhaps more than made up for by the increase in the sale price). As it is now, only the final five seconds count, sniper quick draw, last man standing. But if you've ever experienced a "chisler" sawing away on your early bid in one dollar increments, then you become a born again sniper with no guilt. Well, JMO.

Nihonto Chicken

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I've not had a bad experience on E-bay really. On one occasion I didn't get the item but Master Card took it off my bill. Twice something arrived broken but insurance took care of it. All the few hundred other times it's worked out just fine.

I tend to bid at the last minute but do it manually. I don't see anything unscrupulous about it. Of course I've been sniped on things that I really really wanted but then again I realize that the person who sniped, his bid could have been a hundred dollars over mine. If I'd wanted it as badly as he did I would have bid more.

All in all E-Bay had allowed me access to a lot of things I never wouldhave seen before.

 

cheers

skyp

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I've given up buying on eBay for years now. It stopped being a pleasure when the raiders started slipping in last-minute bidding and won auctions away within the last 30 seconds. I gave up when I couldn't win anything. I'll use Buy It Now, or the marketplace at eBay that lets you buy something now. The auctions were too maddening. Garage sales are much better around here.

 

SNIP

 

I don't think I'd ever have a prayer of buying a fountain pen from eBay. Too stressful, too expensive, and... well, I like the marketplace here a lot better and a few online vendors I'm come to trust.

 

Whilst i certainly am in favor of folks buying pens from good sellers here in FPN's marketplace, i am confused by what seems to be the pejorative notion of "raiders" in the context of the above quote. How else should one bid but in a way that maximizes opportunity to win item that interests him?

 

regards

 

david

 

 

 

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I've slowly discovered some wonderful sellers and acquired some wonderful pens from some wonderful people. I have to concur that the sniping took a lot of the fun out - bad tempered people more intent on "winning" than the process of getting there.

 

But I still get deals, especially on the "make an offer" items. Haggling when both parties know what something should go for is almost as much fun as the REAL auctions used to be. :thumbup:

 

 

While I of course defer to each individual his choice of how to pursue fun in most settings including that of the online auction, i do not understand the linkage above between "sniping" and " bad tempered people more intent on "winning" than the process of getting there".

 

I've know of no linkage between sniping and any particular temper.

 

I don't object to anyone having fun in the process of bidding however he sees fit, certainly when bidding as sanctioned by the auction house. If nibbling or sniping makes one happy, well he should just go for it.

 

I admit i generally bid in auctions with the goal of procuring an item of interest at an appealing price, vs bidding just for the process of bidding. But, when i do occasionally have fun bidding for its own sake without the goal of winning, i am not upset when... i don't win.

 

regards

 

david

 

 

 

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I've slowly discovered some wonderful sellers and acquired some wonderful pens from some wonderful people. I have to concur that the sniping took a lot of the fun out - bad tempered people more intent on "winning" than the process of getting there.

 

But I still get deals, especially on the "make an offer" items. Haggling when both parties know what something should go for is almost as much fun as the REAL auctions used to be. :thumbup:

 

 

While I of course defer to each individual his choice of how to pursue fun in most settings including that of the online auction, i do not understand the linkage above between "sniping" and " bad tempered people more intent on "winning" than the process of getting there".

 

I've know of no linkage between sniping and any particular temper.

 

I don't object to anyone having fun in the process of bidding however he sees fit, certainly when bidding as sanctioned by the auction house. If nibbling or sniping makes one happy, well he should just go for it.

 

I admit i generally bid in auctions with the goal of procuring an item of interest at an appealing price, vs bidding just for the process of bidding. But, when i do occasionally have fun bidding for its own sake without the goal of winning, i am not upset when... i don't win.

 

regards

 

david

I absolutely agree. I've lost more than I've won,and that's because I wasn't willing to pay the ethereal prices that some people are willing to pay. I did a review on ebay about fountain pen collecting,and one of my last points was that if one pays way too much for a certain pen,the chances are good,nay VERY good that they won't recoup all the money that they spent on that pen. That's why I always have a limit in mind on what I'm willing to spend. And if I lose,there will always be another pen auction that I will be interested in.

 

John

Irony is not lost on INFJ's--in fact,they revel in it.

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I guess people get into a bidding war over an item and if they believe they have been cheated out of a deal, it's easy to say they dragged their feet too long, sure, but it's better to think about the consequences too. If someone has the option for a "second chance" from the seller, they might want to go for that too. Still, it depends upon what you are looking for too.

 

As a seller, I always try as much as I descriptively can to make sure the details of the item is as possible for I think, if I was interested in purchasing an item, I want it to be exactly what I paid for and nothing more. You got to have a heart for the customer because not only are they helping to cover the costs of shipping, eBay fees, etc., but there's an opportunity they might want to bid again on one of your items for sale. What ticks me off is some sellers have a abhorrent lack of integrity that they either ignore questions prospective bidders might ask, or they sell an item and it turns out to be completely flawed, regardless of what the item is, or they refuse to refund your money in any case. This gives not only eBay a bad name, but it makes us look bad too. These guys think sometimes the site is a place to make a quick buck for junk and idiots out there are blind to their own desires. Gosh, it just makes me sick.

 

If I was bidding on an item and I wanted to know all about it, it's vital to ask detailed, informed questions on it. The seller has a perfect obligation to answer as best as he can not only so he can give a satisfied answer to the bidder, but it could potentially increase the value of the item too. But everyone's different, so sometimes people make mistakes when they bid on an item they didn't want. Because of this, you need to be patient if you are sure this is the item you want before you bid.

 

Buyers remorse is a common part of eBay. If you go to a store and purchase a pen and the only option is exchange, then the seller must make sure of course nothing is changed or damaged on the item. It's different for eBay. If a buyer wants to exchange an item or possibly ask for a refund, they have a certain amount of days to do so. Some sellers prefer one week or seven days, or even longer. It depends on the seller considering if you bought the item and don't like it, state a full reasonable case. But as I said, bidding on an item is a contractual agreement, and any agreement must be clearly noted in the item description.

 

The worse case I think is taking the agreement to court. Thankfully, with all the sellers I've conversed with, this has been a very rare case and usually are resolved before it gets to that level. We don't need more bad sellers and bidders, we need strong values and integrity from both parties.

 

That seems about right doesn't it?

 

 

Edited by Shamouti
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The trick of it is to look at past auctions to get a sense of the "going rate" for a particular pen (if it is common enough, like a Parker 51). You also need to get a sense of what pens are sought after and have "trawlers" feeding after them--buyers who continually watch for "low end" closing auctions so they can pick them off. For popular pens, there are also people who buy them low, fix them up, then sell with high reserves.

 

If it's a rare pen, then you can bet there will be last minute sniping. Putting down your highest bid early is a bad idea... it "challenges" others to try outbidding you. That's why it is better to wait near the end.

 

I've had mostly good experiences, by avoiding people with low or poor feedback and getting a sense of them by communicating (asking questions, requesting additional photos, etc). If you bid on items sold by people well established with pen selling, you usually won't go wrong. There are telltale signs when people are "conditionally unethical", by having a number of negative and neutral feedback ratings from people who are articulate. I've had a few of these happen... the borderline cases where the seller plays up the pen more than it is, then feigns ignorance when there are subtle discrepancies (like a few more dents/scratches than seen in the photos, or a hairline crack not shown). I had that happen with an established seller from Thailand, who then told me I could get my vintage pen "fixed" by sending it into the manufacturer (he said they were reputed to send it back along with an apology for not being able to fix it and a modern day equivalent replacement for free). Boy was he wrong--the manufacturer held my pen hostage for return shipping, with no satisfaction! After a couple months of that, it was too late to get my money back AND I couldn't leave feedback.

 

So, definitely get to know your seller. On the other hand, you can sometimes get a pen bargain from someone who is clueless about pens but very amicable to deal with overall. Just ask the right questions,

[MYU's Pen Review Corner] | "The Common Ground" -- Jeffrey Small

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I've got some of my best pens and some excellent bargains on ebay and very few duds at all.

Got an incredible bargain last week. Had a snipe in for almost 5 times the price - yes perhaps a touch over value - but I'm not sure if I was over because of the rarity if the item - but what a deal.

Got my most expensive pen from Al Mayman (RIP mote) over ebay when I fished out his reserve and my snipe didn't need to come into play.

Yes it is hard to gauge a price, but you need to know what you are prepared to pay and not snivel if you get beaten. You might lose by a few bucks but never really know how far the other guy would have gone........

Sic Transit Gloria

 

"Gloria gets seasick"

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Like so many things, my Ebay buying has been a case of some bad and and some good. The bad is very bad fakes of designer jewellery, items that have been described as new or perfect that plainly were not and retailers that send out goods that were not what you ordered.

 

Paypal again have been very mixed. and I notice that they are more difficult to deal with when you are a customer of a large volume seller. They repeatedly lose documentation that is sent to them, refuse to accept email attachments and want expert reports (who may be many miles away) of the alledged defect.

 

If I was to restrict my future buying it would be to the little old lady in Pasadena and Ebay shops in China, I have just bought 3 pens for $20 including shipping and, like Dickens, I have Great Expectations.

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Sniping is not bad or suspect behavior, it is simply using Fleabay's rules in one's own favor. Fleabay is not an on-line replica of the traditional auction. The traditional live auction is primarily bid limited, it continues on until no one ups the bid at the required increment. Fleabay is primarily time limited, any bid a fraction of a second after the set auction closing time is disregarded. In order to thwart sniping and replicate the traditional live auction, Fleabay could institute a new rule that any bid placed within the last, say, fifteen minutes of the auction will extend the auction closing time another fifteen minutes from the time of that bid. The the auction would primarily become bid limited, not time limited. Of course, the auction could go on for quite some time in near fifteen minute increments, and this would cost Fleabay some "time is money" (but perhaps more than made up for by the increase in the sale price). As it is now, only the final five seconds count, sniper quick draw, last man standing. But if you've ever experienced a "chisler" sawing away on your early bid in one dollar increments, then you become a born again sniper with no guilt. Well, JMO.

 

 

That's a fantastic idea. If i was in charge of ebay, that or something similar would be implemented. But alas, i suspect the 'time is money' would be a deterrent and make shareholders not too happy. probably why there is no such option now.

Edited by ilubiano

Canada sure is cold.

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Like so many things, my Ebay buying has been a case of some bad and and some good. The bad is very bad fakes of designer jewellery, items that have been described as new or perfect that plainly were not and retailers that send out goods that were not what you ordered.

 

Paypal again have been very mixed. and I notice that they are more difficult to deal with when you are a customer of a large volume seller. They repeatedly lose documentation that is sent to them, refuse to accept email attachments and want expert reports (who may be many miles away) of the alledged defect.

 

If I was to restrict my future buying it would be to the little old lady in Pasadena and Ebay shops in China, I have just bought 3 pens for $20 including shipping and, like Dickens, I have Great Expectations.

 

Ah, to you Arthur, I concur completely. People who have some knowledge of compliance with shipping and stipulation agreements must understand that once a contract is binding, regardless of the volume they sell, their obligation must be paramount. You know, if you are selling large equipment to a Chinese firm for example, you must have correct documentation for all cases. Of course, if the documentation is "missing" as said, this could lead to problems. One idea is that if in a case of missing funds from the buyer or seller, Paypal could become the payer for the lost funds. It's a standard for international business. Besides, any feckless reason for "losing" documentation can result in substantial revenue through the government they do business through their country of origin in the form of fines. I am constantly surprised sellers haven't thought through this, maybe they don't know, or they are irrevocably shameless to customers.

 

Some of these issues certainly need to be addressed to eBay to enhance the auction experience for us.

Edited by Shamouti
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So what are your experiences with eBay? Have you been a buyer or seller or both? Did you have any problems with customers or merchants?

I've been on eBay for close to 10 years as well, both as a buyer and as a seller. I've had mostly positive experiences on both accounts, but have had my share of negatives with buying and selling. I no longer sell outside of CONUS due to three expensive sales that ended with a loss of each for me, even though the items were insured. For buys, I avoid those auctions that are not careful presentations of the item being sold or have bad ratings for the seller.

 

<span style='font-size: 12px;'><span style='font-family: Trebuchet MS'><span style='color: #0000ff'><strong class='bbc'>Mitch</strong></span><span style='color: #0000ff'>

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I've gotten some good pens on eBay, as well as sold some pens at pretty good prices on eBay. While I like selling on FPN because I know the pens are going to people who will use them (I sound like a parent I know), you reach a wider market on eBay.

 

I've really only had one bad experience on eBay and that was a selling experience. Over a 10 dollar Moleskine notebook mind you. Seller sent money, later requested all these extras in shipping but refused to pay for them, then proceeded to e-mail me every couple of hours essentially to make sure it shipped out that day. In the end of it, I just refunded the money back to him. He left horrible feedback for me, but I did as well.

 

I learned from that to stick to my guns when selling. I had a rash initially of people ordering me what I was going to do with their won items. I just learned to steer them back to the auction and remind them what they paid for, usually that works out fine. The biggie is I put that I have up to 5-6 days to ship out the item. I normally get them out the same day or next using first class mail, but it always helps to have that in there.

 

As for the sniping thing, heck yeah I use sniping. As long as I'm following the rules that eBay has set forth, why wouldn't I play to win. Sniping helps me too though because I set what i'm willing to pay for the pen and don't touch it again. It helped solve that last minute upping my bid higher than I wanted.

Edited by penguinmaster

My Site: Pens and Ink

 

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Most of my 250+ transactions have been fine, picked up some great pens, numerous CDs (and CDRs of more dubious lineage until they tightened up, but even most of those have been OK or sellers have resolved issues).

 

Only had a couple of ripoffs (CDs ordered and not delivered, but total loss is minimal so no real worries) and one set of fake Sonnets, but they were very cheap and actually write pretty well.

 

On the plus side I have picked up some great pens at greatly reduced prices and only had a handful of disappointments (not as described/worse condition than suggested), but that was mainly in the early days. I think Ebay is great if you take care, but true bargains are getting fewer and further between with pens sometimes fetching prices far in excess of true worth, but as I don't bid on those not a problem for me.

 

I would love to buy more from the US, but am put off by possibility of extra costs, VAT etc (also large variance in shipping costs, anything from $5 - £30 for the same item), so tend to bid no more than $40, but have still picked up some decent bargains including a couple of Vacs and Sheaffer Balances for rather less than UK prices.

 

Andy

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I'm not trying to be provocative, but I think it's curious that those who defend sniping say "why shouldn't I do everything I can inside the rules" or "isn't the point to try to win?"

 

I suppose the nature of any competitive situation is that people will try to win, but the reason there are rules is because people will always tend to do things in their own interest against the common good.

 

To apply the same good/bad analysis to capitalism that others have to ebay (and I am no defender of communism, for those of you who will flame me for even daring to draw the parallel), the good of capitalism is that it frees the exchange of goods and services from all those annoying localized customs, practices, mores and relationships. Lots more good stuff flows from producers to suppliers; and suppliers get paid a lot more to provide things people want. But the bad of capitalism is...it frees the exchange of goods and services from all that annoying responsibility to local customs, practices, mores and relationships.

 

In case that seems a little vague and academic, a case in point: it does not appear that there were any SEC or banking rules against the creation or sale of the derivative securities that enabled investment banks to package up vast quantities of subprime mortgages, insure them and pass them off as triple A grade investments. So why shouldn't the investment banks do so? Isn't the point of being a businessman to make money, as long as you're not breaking the rules? And if any one of them declined to get involved in it, someone else would do it anyway, right?

 

I'm not saying sniping on ebay is the same as knowingly participating in a financial scam that will cost our country (i.e., us taxpayers and consumers) billions of dollars. I'm just saying I'm leery of people saying "hey, I didn't break any rules" and "of course I was trying to make money-that's my job."

 

Nobody likes to be sniped, all the comments about "toughing it out" show that it's annoying for everyone to lose by a small increment in the last seconds. Isn't there a better reason to do it than "of course I'm going to do everything within the rules to win?"

 

To turn it around, what's wrong if a seller writes a technically accurate but deceptive description, or alters or just edits his/her photographs to avoid showing a serious defect. Or neglects to mention a mismatch, replacement part or missing part in order to fool newbies or the careless. Hey, as long as the seller doesn't break the rules, right? Caveat emptor. Serves you right if you got taken...

 

but wait, isn't the whole point of ebay to make people accountable for their economic behaviour? Ebay only exists because the feedback function allows us all to see evidence of bad behavior. otherwise, it would just be craigslist. or sending money to a post office box listed in a newspaper classified.

 

And by the way, am I missing something here? The only reason to use sniping software is to try to gain a competitive advantage against people that don't, right? But once all the serious bidders are using sniping services, that advantage is lost. That's why you see the explosive bidding in the last seconds. All the rare pens that sit out there at opening bid or a few bucks more because the sellers have no idea how valuable they are, or how to list them. Right up until the last minute when all the sniping services kick in and the price jumps 1000% in a minute.

 

So who are we really beating out with the sniping, if all the other "real" bidders, the serious collectors who really know what something is worth, are sniping too? The nibblers? The way prices are going on ebay, I seriously doubt if those tentative, poorly informed collectors would really have nibbled their way to the mostly high (real) prices we're now seeing. Or that they were really interested at all in the the things sniped at low prices in the first place. It begs the question, is all we're really doing by sniping now just enriching the sniping services? Maybe it's just the classic arms race scenario--played out over some bits of gold and plastic and hard rubber...

 

Oh, and by the way, even if it is working in the short run, and prices for the rarest items are kept artificially low by sniping software, the market will eventually correct for this and fewer things--especially rare things--will come through ebay as sellers seek to sell their best things someplace else. As some dealers in my town have started to do. Or they'll just end their auctions early when they see the price remaining incredibly low, or when someone tries to do a end run around the auction by buying the item outside of ebay.

 

ebay has brought so many amazing things onto the market, and has given each of us so much more access to so many more pens than we have ever had in the past, it would be a shame if the quality and quantity of goods offered on it were reduced by the negative consequences of sniping.

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I'm not trying to be provocative, but I think it's curious that those who defend sniping say "why shouldn't I do everything I can inside the rules" or "isn't the point to try to win?"

 

I don't find this "provocative" (in the negative sense of that word), but I'm not sure i understand the very question.

 

Is not the point of entering an auction to win that which prompted one to enter?

 

To the degree that one then has entered an auction to win said item, what possible reason would one not try to win and... at the best price possible, if the rules allow him to tilt the final price in a favorable fashion?

 

Basically, i don't understand why you view anyone as "defending" sniping. What here needs "defending"?

 

I suppose the nature of any competitive situation is that people will try to win, but the reason there are rules is because people will always tend to do things in their own interest against the common good.

 

I believe the very definition of a competitive situation requires an attempt to win.

 

I believe there is no common good in an auction in terms of actual bid. There is a goal for seller and goal for would-be buyer. That is all. The only "common good" is to prevent cheating (fraud, shill bidding, conspiracy to suppress bidding, etc).

 

To degree that one might imagine a common good in "outcome" (what, the village will share the auctioned item?), when i bid i darn well want to avoid any "common" good. Rather, i wish to take home the item of interest to me.

 

 

To apply the same good/bad analysis to capitalism that others have to ebay (and I am no defender of communism, for those of you who will flame me for even daring to draw the parallel), the good of capitalism is that it frees the exchange of goods and services from all those annoying localized customs, practices, mores and relationships. Lots more good stuff flows from producers to suppliers; and suppliers get paid a lot more to provide things people want. But the bad of capitalism is...it frees the exchange of goods and services from all that annoying responsibility to local customs, practices, mores and relationships.

 

Not sure what that has to do with sniping.

 

I'm not saying sniping on ebay is the same as knowingly participating in a financial scam that will cost our country (i.e., us taxpayers and consumers) billions of dollars. I'm just saying I'm leery of people saying "hey, I didn't break any rules" and "of course I was trying to make money-that's my job."

 

This is backwards. One should not be leery of folks trying to get the best deal in an auction setting. One should recognize it rather as the very goal of playing. Indeed, one should simply not participate in an auction setting at all if the notion that bidders are out for themselves generates feelings of leeriness. Indeed, that person's psychology would appear ill suited to the auction milieu.

 

Nobody likes to be sniped, all the comments about "toughing it out" show that it's annoying for everyone to lose by a small increment in the last seconds. Isn't there a better reason to do it than "of course I'm going to do everything within the rules to win?"

 

I don't like to pay $4 for gas. I don't like that some of my stocks lost value. I don't like that i didn't get a raise. I don't like that the sun rises so early in the day.

 

It is easy not to like things. It is easy to feel entitled. Our country has bit too much of that these days. It is tougher to have to master the rules of a game than to bemoan the reality that some folks have mastered the rules of the game.

 

 

To turn it around, what's wrong if a seller writes a technically accurate but deceptive description, or alters or just edits his/her photographs to avoid showing a serious defect. Or neglects to mention a mismatch, replacement part or missing part in order to fool newbies or the careless. Hey, as long as the seller doesn't break the rules, right? Caveat emptor. Serves you right if you got taken...

 

 

To degree that the post i quote started out seemingly as an objection to sniping (not that there really is such a thing. There is rather just... smart bidding... which some choose to denigrate with the "snipe" descriptor), the quote just above does not "turn" anything "around". I do not understand how deception and fraud represent a seller's equivalent to simple smart bidding. The very example provided is misleading and deceptive. The seller equivalent of "sniping" simply is not "cheating and fraud, caveat emptor".

 

but wait, isn't the whole point of ebay to make people accountable for their economic behaviour? Ebay only exists because the feedback function allows us all to see evidence of bad behavior. otherwise, it would just be craigslist. or sending money to a post office box listed in a newspaper classified.

 

Whilst i am not privy to the ebay charter or high level managers' meetings, my understanding of ebay is that it has nothing whatsoever to do with "making people accountable for their economic behavior". Rather, i believe ebay's whole point is to generate revenue for its stock holders with a business model that happens to involve on line bidding.

 

And by the way, am I missing something here?

 

I believe so.

 

the only reason to use sniping software is to try to gain a competitive advantage against people that don't, right? But once all the serious bidders are using sniping services, that advantage is lost.

 

I believe you indirectly allude to penetrance of a business model, how easy and how well a given business model is (or can be) adopted by anyone. Historically, just because something can be done, does not mean that all do it. Indeed, having used sniperware at least 7 years, i find it still confers a marked advantage, so clearly its availability has not resulted in universal adoption.

 

And, your assertion as to lost advantage fails on a second count. If all snipe, the poorly educated bidder who embraces weak auction psychology (eg. his "maximum" bid would change if only he'd had time to respond to the presence of a new bid) will tend to still underbid via the snipe mechanism.

 

That's why you see the explosive bidding in the last seconds. All the rare pens that sit out there at opening bid or a few bucks more because the sellers have no idea how valuable they are, or how to list them. Right up until the last minute when all the sniping services kick in and the price jumps 1000% in a minute.

 

No, you see big bidding... in some cases... in the last seconds is that some bidders have greater knowledge than others. Even with the explosion- on some not all pens- weeding out the nibblers conveys some advantage.

 

In casinos, the house makes millions in blackjack, but only has a <1% advantage per hand over the educated player. Yet the house makes millions. Game theory does not require that any strategy work 100% of the time, in each individual interaction. Rather, a general advantage (whilst providing smaller disadvantage) is all that is needed to make a given strategy benefiial.

 

But, whether sniping works or not really was not the thrust of your post. You started out with what seems to be a morals argument. If we argue the ethics of "sniping" it should matter not whether sniping works or not, no?

 

So who are we really beating out with the sniping, if all the other "real" bidders, the serious collectors who really know what something is worth, are sniping too? The nibblers?

 

Again, you seem to have retreated from the ethics of the approach into castigation of snipers implying their model does not even serve them. If i misread you, i apologize. Still, recognizing you have strayed from your core point, i answer your question anyway, pointing out that eliminating the nibblers is more than sufficient reason to snipe. And sniping also eliminates other snipers who sometimes wimp out and adopt nibblerhood given the chance. Beating the nibblers conveys well more advantage than the House has in Blackjack, and the Casinos do seem content to have their small advantage.

 

 

The way prices are going on ebay, I seriously doubt if those tentative, poorly informed collectors would really have nibbled their way to the mostly high (real) prices we're now seeing.

 

Recognizing that my experience having won 2000+ pens on ebay and having bid probably on 20,000 leaves me just a dabbler, i believe your serious dout is woefully wrong. Indeed, and as an aside, i do not see particularly higher prices today than 8 years ago, for many/most pens.

 

 

... I seriously doubt if those tentative, poorly informed collectors would really have nibbled their way to the mostly high (real) prices we're now seeing Or that they were really interested at all in the the things sniped at low prices in the first place.

 

Sniping serves also to win, not necessarily at a "low" price, but rather at a "lower" price. A "lower" price still can be quite high.

 

It begs the question, is all we're really doing by sniping now just enriching the sniping services? Maybe it's just the classic arms race scenario--played out over some bits of gold and plastic and hard rubber...

 

i believe this raises or invites-- rather than begs-- the question. Barring a case controlled prospective trial, a proof will be difficult to provide. My wee experience- 2000+ pens won, 20,000+ pens bid upon, convinces me that sniping has saved me a fortune. Given that i pay the sniper company ONLY when i win, i am grateful if i am able to enrich them a tiny fraction of what they have given me. Capitalism at its best.

 

Oh, and by the way, even if it is working in the short run, and prices for the rarest items are kept artificially low by sniping software, the market will eventually correct for this and fewer things--especially rare things--will come through ebay as sellers seek to sell their best things someplace else.

 

WHere to begin with all the errors and assumptions in that quote. Where is it shown that prices for any item is kept artificially low by sniperware, per se. Have you controlled for the market presence of ebay? Will an item withheld from ebay to be sold in a local Iowan auction in which 10 farmers attend, do better because it was not placed on ebay and placed in the path of sniperware?

 

Or they'll just end their auctions early when they see the price remaining incredibly low, or when someone tries to do a end run around the auction by buying the item outside of ebay.

 

No. Most who put things on ebay use reserves if they have sense of value of their item, and do not know enough to end auctions early when they don't have sense of value, which is why many sellers work with ebay instead of, say, Sotheby's.

 

 

ebay has brought so many amazing things onto the market, and has given each of us so much more access to so many more pens than we have ever had in the past, it would be a shame if the quality and quantity of goods offered on it were reduced by the negative consequences of sniping.

 

Correlation, causation and assumption are such tricky things. Ebays quality and quantity of goods appears to have blossomed in parallel with sniperware.

 

regards

 

david

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Excellent post, Stephenchin. An ultracompetitive specter has been haunting America over the past ten years or so, and in my opinion it is destroying many of the values that made this capitalist nation great. The eBay sniping case reminds me of a girl I went to highschool with (she's now a lawyer). We had a history class with a teacher who was not very bright. She figured out early in the year that if she asked him very detailed questions over and over again during a test, he would eventually (out of boredom or stupidity) just give her the correct answers. So she did this with every single test - she no longer had to study, and she got some of the best grades in the class. She didn't see anything wrong with what she did: in her understanding, the point of school was to get good grades and it really didn't matter what you did to get them as long as you didn't violate the rules in a way that would result in punishment. She minimized her effort and maximized her results (she also didn't learn anything about US history).

 

In a way, I think the sniping case is less egregious than this, but they partake of the same spirit. The "point" of eBay (if we can say that any of these things have a "point" that isn't contingent on the participants' understandings) is to purchase goods cheaply at auction. Sniping certainly helps with this, but as Stephenchin pointed out, there will eventually be a cost (in his example, sellers no longer posting rare and valuable items). It's an awkward situation, and one that's hard to resist in any meaningful way - using conventional bidding and losing to snipers is not a very effective or visible form of protest. If we start thinking about politics in these terms many of us will get very mad and depressed, so I'll leave that up to your imagination, readers. Anyway, I applaud Stephenchin's idealism (I use the word in a positive sense).

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