Rapidograph: Rotring or Koh-I-Noor?

[Splicer]

I've used Koh-I-Noor rapidographs almost my whole career, and before those I had Reform Refographs which were essentially identical.

 

I have to replace my 4x0 and am considering trying out the Rotring variety. I know the Rotring Isographs are the same as the Koh-I-Noor Rapidographs, but the Rotring Rapidographs use a sealed cartridge for ink. I've always thought of that as foolish and wasteful (like cartridges instead of bottled ink) but I recently read that Rotring's sealed-cartridge system improves the flow of ink, which has been a perennial problem with Rapidographs.

 

So my question is, for anyone that's used both, is it worth it? Does it really help to have a sealed ink cartridge in this kind of pen?

 

Related question: Are the Isographs better-made than the Koh-I-Noor Rapidographs? I don't have any complaints about the Koh-I-Noor, but I've come to trust Rotring for quality of construction.

 

Thanks!

[Sharkle]

 

Hi Splicer! I used to use Koh-I-Noor rapidographs all the time--and they always leaked, but I loved the line. I've only used a Rotring FP, but it is a very sturdy pen. Would it be possible to re-use the "sealed" Rotring cartridge by filling it? That way you'd have more ink variety. I don't know if this helps. Good luck!

 

 

[Splicer]

Supposedly the sealed cartridges are capillary cartridges, which might make them difficult or impossible to refill. However, that's the reason given for the improved flow.

 

Also, ink variety isn't really an issue for me. I've got lots of fountain pen inks, but technical pens even more so than fountain pens depend on a specific range of surface tension and viscosity in order to flow correctly. Since the inks for those pens is waterproof, I'm assuming that they are not compatible with fountain pen inks.

 

Although, I'd guess that since FP inks are water-soluble, the worst thing that could happen is that I make a mess. So there's no reason not to try out FP inks in a technical pen.

[psfred]

Splicer:

 

My experience is limited to Rapidographs using the ink supplied and standard drawing inks and Ink-o-graph stylographic fountain pens, which are just about identical.

 

Fountain pen ink flows a bit too well in the Ink-o-graphs, I think they would work better with thicker ink. I've not tried fountain pen ink in a rapidograph, but as long as you are holding them vertical, I think the fountain pen ink would work fine. You can easily try, after all. Worst case is probably wide ends on the lines at start and finish where the tip is free of the paper but the weight hasn't sealed yet. I guess I can dig out my Rapidographs and see, they are still in my desk drawer after 20+ years -- when I was in graduate school, one had to draw one's graphs and tables, no computer assisted stuff yet!

 

I don't know what ink the Rotrings have in them, but if it's a capillary system, probably not standard drawing or caligraphy ink.

 

Peter

[Johnny Appleseed]

Just a side note - I have a couple of 1950s Koh-I-Noors that are piston-filled. They turn up frequently on ebay if you want to try a different filling method (unless, of course, that is what you are using - I assumed your Koh-I-Noors are the modern ED fillers).

 

John

[Deirdre]

Personally, I'd go for the Rotring just because you have experience with the Koh-I-Noor.

[johneffay]

I know nothing about the Koh-I-Noors, but I have used Rotring Rapidographs and Isographs and couldn't really see any difference in terms of ink flow. However, I haven't used any under 0.5, so perhaps it is an issue with the narrower nibs?

Edited February 6, 2008 by johneffay

[Splicer]

Just a side note - I have a couple of 1950s Koh-I-Noors that are piston-filled. They turn up frequently on ebay if you want to try a different filling method (unless, of course, that is what you are using - I assumed your Koh-I-Noors are the modern ED fillers).

 

You assumed correctly. At some point I'd like to start collecting those vintage stylographs. They are pretty common on eBay like you say, but harder to find the variety of point sizes that the modern pens come in, so I'm not expecting to be able to replace my moderns with vintage any time soon. Plus I'm already concerned that the replacement points are going to disappear from the market. Considering the rate at which I break points (I can count on breaking one or two each year from accidents while cleaning) I don't want to be stuck with obsolete pens for which I can't get parts. That's not an immediate concern, but I fear the rapidographs may disappear much sooner than I'm happy with.

 

Especially with the uncertain state of Rotring (the ArtPens may be sold by Chartpak, but the Rotring Rapidograph I bought today (I figure I may as well find out for myself) has the Sanford web address on the box. So I have good reason to fear for the state of Rotring Rapidographs.

 

However, if this flows well enough to be an improvement on the Koh-I-Noors (and I think the 4x0 should be a good test; I seem to have the most problems with the finest points) I may just bite the bullet and stockpile cartridges as if they were corned beef hash in a fallout shelter.

 

Also, I could minimize the impact of the move to a disposable cartridge system by only replacing the finer points (1 or 0 and smaller) and keeping the broader points (which use more ink and have fewer flow issues) as bottle-fillers.

[Splicer]

I know nothing about the Koh-I-Noors, but I have used Rotring Rapidographs and Isographs and couldn't really see any difference in terms of ink flow. However, I haven't used any under 0.5, so perhaps it is an issue with the narrower nibs?

 

The narrower nibs do tend to have more flow issues, but it's a very very real possibility that the benefits of the cartridge system are just marketing hype. I imagine that there's more money to be made selling disposable cartridges than bottles of ink.

[Splicer]

I don't know what ink the Rotrings have in them, but if it's a capillary system, probably not standard drawing or caligraphy ink.

 

Thanks Peter--

 

Considering that the Parker '61' uses a capillary filler with standard fountain pen inks, I'm skeptical that the Rotring cartridges are much different than Rotring's bottled drawing ink.

 

Ultimately, I don't really care about using fountain pen inks in technical pens. I generally draw in black and only write with colored inks. I'll do some torture tests on the ink in the Rotring capillary cartridge versus the Koh-I-Noor ink and see if there's any difference in color, waterfastness, etc. I'll certainly report back what my impressions of the Rotring are.

 

[josh1990]

I don't know what ink the Rotrings have in them, but if it's a capillary system, probably not standard drawing or caligraphy ink.

 

Thanks Peter--

 

Considering that the Parker '61' uses a capillary filler with standard fountain pen inks, I'm skeptical that the Rotring cartridges are much different than Rotring's bottled drawing ink.

 

Ultimately, I don't really care about using fountain pen inks in technical pens. I generally draw in black and only write with colored inks. I'll do some torture tests on the ink in the Rotring capillary cartridge versus the Koh-I-Noor ink and see if there's any difference in color, waterfastness, etc. I'll certainly report back what my impressions of the Rotring are.

 

I would go with the Rotring cartridge rapidographs or the Staedtler marsmatic 700, as you said rotring=cartridge but with the marsmatic you can use bottled ink or cartridges.

Both had a good steady ink-flow and I have never had any trouble with them. I have not tried the isographs, but cultpens.com has all three and some other drawing pens.

 

Josh

[psfred]

The one advantage to fountain pen ink is the ease of cleaning. Getting my in shape always seemed to mean spending a lot of time sonicating tips in cleaning solution, I never could keep them routinely clear even in regular use.

 

Great for labeling glass microscope slides, though, and drawing numbered grids for ultra-small thin sections!

 

Peter

[Splicer]

Here's an update. I bought a 0.18 mm Rotring Rapidograph to replace my 4x0 Koh-I-Noor Rapidograph with the broken wire. I plugged in the cartridge and got to work. It worked fine and might have been just a tad on the wet side. No skipping or false starts, it took a while to get started the first time, but then it was fine for the rest of the evening.

 

It's just one day, so it really doesn't mean anything. But by contrast I couldn't get my 6x0 Koh-I-Noor to lay down a line at all today. Very discouraging. If a cleaning doesn't fix it and the Rotring 0.18mm continues to behave, I might just replace the 6x0 with a Rotring 0.12 and stock up on cartridges.

[Johnny Appleseed]

Another side-note:

 

Come on, they're tubular fountain pens, right? On topic?

 

The very first true stylographic pen was invented by Duncan MacKinnon and the US patent was granted March 21, 1876, patent no. US174,965. It is titled "Improvement n Fountain-Pens" and reads "Be it known that I, Duncan Mackinnon, of the town of Stratford, in the County of Perth, in the province of Ontario, Canada, have invented an Improvement in Fountain-Pens, of which the following is a specification:. . ."

 

So, yes, it is on topic (and the category is "writing instruments" anyway. . .)

 

John

[bernardo]

I've used Koh-I-Noor rapidographs almost my whole career, and before those I had Reform Refographs which were essentially identical.

I have to replace my 4x0 and am considering trying out the Rotring variety. I know the Rotring Isographs are the same as the Koh-I-Noor Rapidographs, but the Rotring Rapidographs use a sealed cartridge for ink. I've always thought of that as foolish and wasteful (like cartridges instead of bottled ink) but I recently read that Rotring's sealed-cartridge system improves the flow of ink, which has been a perennial problem with Rapidographs.

So my question is, for anyone that's used both, is it worth it? Does it really help to have a sealed ink cartridge in this kind of pen?

Related question: Are the Isographs better-made than the Koh-I-Noor Rapidographs? I don't have any complaints about the Koh-I-Noor, but I've come to trust Rotring for quality of construction.

Thanks!

 

I used Staedtler stylographs some years ago, which don't have sealed cartridges, and never had the slightest problem with them.

 

[Ged]

I have used Koh-I-Noor tech pens and found issues with leaking and flow. Currently I'm using a .18 Rotring Isograph (bottle filled wtih red Rotring ink). Excellent flow. And it doesn't gush out huge globs of ink just because I put in my bag and took it home. Easy to clean as well. If it wasn't for the uncertain future of Rotring I would be getting a few more ISO sizes. I'll probably try a Steadtler soon and see how that compares.

[Splicer]

I have used Koh-I-Noor tech pens and found issues with leaking and flow. Currently I'm using a .18 Rotring Isograph (bottle filled wtih red Rotring ink). Excellent flow. And it doesn't gush out huge globs of ink just because I put in my bag and took it home. Easy to clean as well. If it wasn't for the uncertain future of Rotring I would be getting a few more ISO sizes. I'll probably try a Steadtler soon and see how that compares.

 

Regarding Rotring's uncertain future, I know I've done some fear-mongering there, but at least one person here on FPN has suggested that Rotring was split up, that part of the business went to Sanford while part of the business went to Chartpak. I suppose I ought to do some digging and try to get some facts, but I think it's a mistake to write Rotring off for their technical pens and the ArtPen.

 

Rotring fountain pens have been off the market for nearly two years here in America. But art supply stores can still order Rapidographs, ArtPens, compasses, and so on.

 

So forgive me if I've fanned the fires, but I don't want to be responsible for undermining the reputation of reliability of a good company.

 

By the way, I found this disclaimer on some online art supply store: "Rapido-eze, Rapidoplot, Rapidograph, Rotring are registered trade names of Chartpak and Koh-I-Noor Inc."

 

Here's a theory based on fragments I've gleaned: Koh-I-Noor (USA) was Rotring's New Jersey branch, making inexpensive Rapidographs (DeWalt and Black & Decker, anyone?). When Rotring was acquired by Sanford, Koh-I-Noor retained the right to continue using the Rotring trade names and brands. Koh-I-Noor was then bought by Chartpak.

 

If this is correct (and who knows if it is?) Rotring's technical pen business is probably quite stable. Chartpak has no competing brands, whereas Newell/Rubbermaid apparently thought that Rotring pens were cutting into Parker's and Waterman's business.

 

The Chartpak website lists Rotring Rapidoliners as a Chartpak product...

[Ged]

Interesting point Splicer. I hadn't looked into the business behind the business of Rotring's so to speak. I'll have to ask the folks at my art store what's the go with the Rotring brand. It would be very sad to see them disappear or degrade quality wise.

[Splicer]

Interesting point Splicer. I hadn't looked into the business behind the business of Rotring's so to speak. I'll have to ask the folks at my art store what's the go with the Rotring brand. It would be very sad to see them disappear or degrade quality wise.

 

Excellent! Please pass on any information you glean.

 

In the meantime, I'm starting to suspect I was wrong about Rotring being part of Chartpak, or at least if I was partially right there's more to it than that.

 

New in the past several months is this redesign of the rotring.com website, and here is the product page for the Rapidograph.

 

There's a sanfordcorp.com link at the top of the page and clicking on "contact us" gives the Sanford GmbH address. So who knows? Perhaps Koh-I-Noor retains the right to distribute Rotring products in the US, which is why they appear in Chartpak's product list.

 

In any case two things seem clear in a good news/bad news sense: Rotring is out of the fountain pen business, and Sanford is willing to dedicate resources to the marketing of Rotring's drafting supplies, including the Rapidograph.

 

In other news, I ordered a set of eight Rotring Rapidographs from the 'bay. Guess I'll be stocking up on the cartridges just in case.

 

 

[Dillo]

Hi,

 

I've used the Staedtler Marsmatic pens. Aside from the caveat of washing out the point section every time I refill the pens (Not very necessary, but I do it anyway since it cleans out the air-feed channel completely), I've never have any problems. The Rotring Rapidograph cartridges are almost unrefillable unless you have a long needle to bypass the section where there is the air feed spiral.

 

The only advantage of the Rapidographs is that you don't need to clean out the air feed spiral every time you refill your pen. It's not a really big deal unless you have no time to clean out your point section or at least tap it on a blotter sheet to clear out the air channels.

 

I can order Rotring Rapidograph pens and Artpens in if necessary since I am a dealer for Chartpak. I can also get replacement points and cartridges.

 

Rotring has indeed split up and manufacture for drawing boards, rulers, Rapidographs, Tikky pencils, and Isograph pens, is now controlled by Chartpak. The manufacture for fountain pens on the other hand, is controlled by Sanford. As a result, if you send mail concerning these technical drawing products to Sanford, you will almost always get sent to Chartpak. When the firm was up for sale, Sanford bought the fine writing division as what they thought would be a nice divison for them, but Chartpak on the other hand, bought the technical drawing division as an "extension" to their Koh-i-noor line. Koh-i-noor was, at some other point in time, related to Rotring.

 

Although split, the technical drawing division and the fine writing divisions of Rotring do sometimes share production plants. Artpens are made in the Newhaven Parker plant while Isographs, Rapidographs, drawing boards, and Tikky pencils are made in the original Rotring plant alongside the Rotring Cores and Esprits.

 

I think that the Rotring Rapidograph and Isograph lines are superior to the Koh-i-noor Rapidographs in quality, but I much prefer the Staedtler Marsmatic pens. In the end, it all boils down to personal taste. If you dislike cleaning the pen every time you refill it to maintain reliablility, the Rotring Rapidographs are for you; but if you like bottle filling, go for the Isographs and Marsmatic pens; and finally, if you are on a budget, the Koh-i-noors are fine bottle-filled technical pens.

 

On the side note, my father liked the Faber-castell TG-1 pens, but I felt that they were a little lower quality, and the friction-fit of the points was not very reassuring. My mother on the other hand, used the Rotring Isographs.

 

Dillon

Edited February 10, 2008 by Dillo