italic and stub nibs

February 3, 2008

How are italic and stub nib pens different, and which would be better for cursive penmanship (1950's) for a person who could NEVER learn to write in the beautiful style of some folks? I will buy a new pen soon, and I really like the "old time" cursive look of penmanship many years ago. My penmanship is rooted int the 1950's, and I can not change it --- very much. I like the various sizes of the lines that seem to be a part of "old time penmanship." Your knowledge will be helpful.

Charles Skinner

February 3, 2008

Italic nibs have sharp shoulders that can snag on paper if held at an incorrect angle and require discipline to keep a correct nib to paper angle and avoid rotating the pen as you write down the line. Stub nibs have rounded shoulders and are easier to use. Cursive italic nibs are a class in between these two. Good luck!

February 3, 2008

Italic nibs have sharp shoulders that can snag on paper if held at an incorrect angle and require discipline to keep a correct nib to paper angle and avoid rotating the pen as you write down the line. Stub nibs have rounded shoulders and are easier to use. Cursive italic nibs are a class in between these two. Good luck!

Thanks. Which one would be best for normal cursive penmanship? I just want to add a flare to me writing, which, I think, is not very attractive.

C. Skinner

February 3, 2008

I taught myself an italic cursive for my everyday writing, as my handwriting had degraded so much over the (many, sigh ...) years, but I have noticed that a cursive italic nib -- or sharp italic or stub, but a really sharp italic probably would take more care and a bit of slowing down and a stub is smoother but doesn't give as much line variation, so a cursive italic is right in the middle -- makes my "old" handwriting style, based on the Palmer method I was taught as a child, prettier.

You could always try it out without much expense by buying a Sheaffer calligraphy pen for about 9 bucks at a Barnes & Noble, just to see. I have an old version of the Viewpoint and it's more like a cursive italic or stub than a true sharp italic. Not much good for calligraphy, but quite pleasant for writing letters and other correspondence.

Edited to add this postscript: :embarrassed_smile: Sorry! I missed your earlier post, in which you said you have a Sheaffer calligraphy pen. Oops. If you found the tip too broad, and it is rather fat, perhaps, like me, you have small handwriting? I agree with the others that cursive italic nibs seem to be what you are looking for.

The Safari nib is 1.1 mm, I think -- pretty wide for those who normally write small, but I do have some wider italic nibs. They do show more of the line variation, but aren't my everyday writers. There are writing samples from the Lamy italic nib here on FPN. Pendemonium has a good and reasonably priced nib grinder and also usually offers a selection of pens, some the higher priced model you might be interested in, fitted with customized italic nibs for sale.

If you were having adjustment problems writing with the Sheaffer calligraphy pen because of the nib width, you might look for a narrower nib width, more .85 mm than 1 mm. Was it the size, as you had suspected? If it turned out that the glitch was more learning the hang of writing with a sharp nib and you still are having difficulties, you might want to consider a stub?

Of course, from the pens you mentioned in another post and if you don't find the nib you want readymade, you might want to invest in having a pricier new pen's nib ground by a nibmeister, who will query you about your writing style and preferences (pen angle, desired flow, etc.), and seek to give you exactly the size nib you're looking for. I haven't gone that route, but many on FPN are very satisfied with the experience.

Edited February 3, 2008 by lefty928

February 3, 2008

Italic nibs have sharp shoulders that can snag on paper if held at an incorrect angle and require discipline to keep a correct nib to paper angle and avoid rotating the pen as you write down the line. Stub nibs have rounded shoulders and are easier to use. Cursive italic nibs are a class in between these two. Good luck!

Thanks. Which one would be best for normal cursive penmanship? I just want to add a flare to me writing, which, I think, is not very attractive.

C. Skinner

I think you want a cursive italic. Some of the higher-end brands sell pens with these nibs and, of course, you can have one ground by a nib specialist. For an inexpensive experiment, you could get a Lamy Safari with italic nib (about $30) and see how you like it. I got mine at Pendemonium and I just saw them advertised in Fountain Pen Hospital's latest mailing. They write well and provide a lot of character.

February 3, 2008

Even after several explanations I am not fully clear on a couple differences-- it seems that there are multiple definitions:

Stub:

acc to some a stub has the tipping lopped off and the remaining nib reformed to be like a rounded italic. Though without the tipping, it will show noticeable wear and degradation over time.

However, several manufacturers and nib customizers make a stub that still has the tipping. So no problem. Just make sure you know which you are getting if buying one that is not a factory option from the penmaker nor from a top nibmeister.

Italic:

an italic makes the best calligraphy and has nice sharp transitions from wide to fine. But a classic italic has sharp edges and tends to catch the corners on your paper and unless you write slowly and carefully.

Cursive Italic:

This rounds the corners on the italic so that it is much more forgiving to write with. That means you are less likely to catch an edge, and more likey to stay in the sweet spot of the nib.

Some say that a stub has less line variation than a cursive italic (difference between thickness of down-stroke and side-stroke). But I am unclear on what the exact difference is unless the stub just has even more rounded edges than a cursive italic, which results in a slightly narrower down-stroke and wider side-stroke.

Assuming they both have tipping, people tend to say that:

Forgiving: Italic-least, Cursive italic-good, Stub-most

Line variation: Italic-most, Cursive italic-good, Stub-least

I write mostly with a cursive italic as it seems to be the best compromise for me. So for everyday writing and journaling, I alternate between and extra-fine round nib and a fine cursive italic.

Someone with vastly more knowledge may provide additional clarification.

February 3, 2008

there is still another possibility, to make matters more confusing. There is something called an oblique nib which is an italic nib cut on a slant. It lets you hold the pen at an angle that may be more comfortable for cursive penmanship. they usually come in OM medium and OB broad. If you have trouble using a calligraphy pen, it might not be your fault. There are a lot of lousy new pens being made today. Also, you do have to be aware of the surface of the nib point and apply enough pressure and or hold it at the correct angle to the paper to keep the entire surface of the point in contact with the paper. I hope this helps a little more than it adds to the confusion. Here is a short piece about the differences in the pen points.

http://www.pentrace.net/article052501085.html

Edited February 3, 2008 by ANM

February 3, 2008

Charles wrote:

" ... Which one would be best for normal cursive penmanship? ... "

If by "normal cursive" you mean Palmer or Peterson style penmanship, I would suggest that you try a "Fine" version of whichever nib style you try. Thicker or wider italic style nibs are best employed in italic writing where the letters are shaped more like printing. For example, if you tried Palmer type cursive with a "Broad" italic, the "e's" and "o's" would be blobs, unless one wrote with extremely large letters.

I will add that oblique nibs are a valid option. But in 50 years, I never caught on to them. Those who can use them love them, and then there are the rest of us. This is a nib option that I would try in a store or at a pen show.

February 4, 2008

Bruce W's observations correspond with mind regarding nibs which are most/least forgiving; most/least line variation.

My experiences with cursive and italic nibs are not especially good.

If you are either talented or willing to invest a lot of time in learning to use a cursive or italic nib, they will give you much pleasure. Unfortunately, I have neither the talent or time to become proficient. For my writing, the stub nib is about as unusual as I can get without creating a mess. I thoroughly enjoy my stub nibs especially for writing Christmas cards and other personal notes.

If you can lay your hands on a Fort Madison made Sheaffer pen with a stub nib, you should expect a very good pen. For new pens, my best experience is with a Bexley.

February 4, 2008

How are italic and stub nib pens different, and which would be better for cursive penmanship (1950's) for a person who could NEVER learn to write in the beautiful style of some folks? I will buy a new pen soon, and I really like the "old time" cursive look of penmanship many years ago. My penmanship is rooted int the 1950's, and I can not change it --- very much. I like the various sizes of the lines that seem to be a part of "old time penmanship." Your knowledge will be helpful.

Charles Skinner

You can find a lot of information about the different types of nibs in the Reference area of richardspens.com

Also, if there is a good bricks-and-mortar pen shop near you, you may be able to try some of the stock stub and italic nibs that are available on some brands of pen.

mehitabel

February 4, 2008

My latest pen has a Pendemonium modified cursive italic nib, and it is a joy to write with, adds a touch of variation, but no sticking or cutting, I can still scrawl quickly, or if I slow down then I can add some elegance to my script, so best of both worlds I believe.

At some point I intend to get a Binderised nib for my Vanishing Point, and this could be an option for you, the VP is a great pen that a lot of our members use, Mr Binder sells them and you can purchase one with a standard nin that he has brather upon (smoothed) or one that has been reground into an italic or stub or cursive itailc or whatever tickels your fancy really.

Have a look at his site and you will get some good definations on various nib styles. (google richardpens and you should get it).

February 4, 2008

My latest pen has a Pendemonium modified cursive italic nib, and it is a joy to write with, adds a touch of variation, but no sticking or cutting, I can still scrawl quickly, or if I slow down then I can add some elegance to my script, so best of both worlds I believe.

At some point I intend to get a Binderised nib for my Vanishing Point, and this could be an option for you, the VP is a great pen that a lot of our members use, Mr Binder sells them and you can purchase one with a standard nin that he has brather upon (smoothed) or one that has been reground into an italic or stub or cursive itailc or whatever tickels your fancy really.
Have a look at his site and you will get some good definations on various nib styles. (google richardpens and you should get it).

I've tried curisve italics from Pendemonium, Richard Binder, and Deb Kinney. All were nice. Mr. Binder's was the easiest for me to use and yet had the most line variation. So I highly recommend his work. Plus, from him you can buy a pre-customized Pelikan nib or Vanishing Point nib and not have to endure the three months wait for your pen to get up the queue to his desk. I found Deb Kinney's to be quite nice, not far from Binder's level of refinement. But her wait time was not so long, if you want to send your pen & nib. (Of course that was 2 years ago.) No connection to any of the them, just a customer. YMMV.

Edited February 4, 2008 by BruceW

February 7, 2008

Even after several explanations I am not fully clear on a couple differences-- it seems that there are multiple definitions:

Stub:
acc to some a stub has the tipping lopped off and the remaining nib reformed to be like a rounded italic. Though without the tipping, it will show noticeable wear and degradation over time.

However, several manufacturers and nib customizers make a stub that still has the tipping. So no problem. Just make sure you know which you are getting if buying one that is not a factory option from the penmaker nor from a top nibmeister.

Italic:
an italic makes the best calligraphy and has nice sharp transitions from wide to fine. But a classic italic has sharp edges and tends to catch the corners on your paper and unless you write slowly and carefully.

Cursive Italic:
This rounds the corners on the italic so that it is much more forgiving to write with. That means you are less likely to catch an edge, and more likey to stay in the sweet spot of the nib.

Some say that a stub has less line variation than a cursive italic (difference between thickness of down-stroke and side-stroke). But I am unclear on what the exact difference is unless the stub just has even more rounded edges than a cursive italic, which results in a slightly narrower down-stroke and wider side-stroke.

Assuming they both have tipping, people tend to say that:

Forgiving: Italic-least, Cursive italic-good, Stub-most
Line variation: Italic-most, Cursive italic-good, Stub-least

I write mostly with a cursive italic as it seems to be the best compromise for me. So for everyday writing and journaling, I alternate between and extra-fine round nib and a fine cursive italic.

Someone with vastly more knowledge may provide additional clarification.