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Esterbrook nibs


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15 replies to this topic

#1 joeycast

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Posted 14 November 2007 - 21:55

I want to buy an Esterbrook stub nib. What is the difference between the 2442 and the 2314F/9314F? And, does anyone know the width of the Fine Stub 9314F and Medium Stub 9314M/ Aslo, what is a Signature Stub 9284? One last question, how flexible is the 9788 Shaded Writing nib? Thank you.

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#2 Quicksilver

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 05:50

The 2442 was called a Falcon stub. It's design is visually different from a 2314. I do not have the history as to why. There is a picture up in our overview though, at http://penpedia.com/...ew_Point_System . I'd love to add in some history on that nib, if someone like Brian knows better.

Flexible Esterbrook nibs, while flexy, are not as good as their gold counterparts of the era. That's not to say they are bad. I rather like mine. They tend to be firmer, with less variation. A 9788 is likely to have less variation, as the medium > broad flex line is going to have less difference compared to a fine > broad flex. Here's some comparison: http://penpedia.com/...lex_example.jpg (sorry, no 9788 in that mix)
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#3 joeycast

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 23:19

Thank you so much for the info. I've been intrigued with the flexibility of some pens. I guess, if I want a really flexible nib I need to look into vintage pens. I have my eye on a Wahl Doric with and adjustable nib. Also, looking at a Wahl Eversharp with what is described as a #2 fine fully flexible nib. What do you think?

#4 marty

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 21:14

QUOTE(Quicksilver @ Nov 15 2007, 12:50 AM) View Post
The 2442 was called a Falcon stub. It's design is visually different from a 2314. I do not have the history as to why. There is a picture up in our overview though, at http://penpedia.com/...ew_Point_System . I'd love to add in some history on that nib, if someone like Brian knows better.
...

I'm new here ... can I reopen an old topic? I just bought a 2442 point and it isn't what I expected. To the naked eye it looks just like the picture referenced above, but with a 5x magnifier I can see that it has a little blob, ball, or whatever you call it on the underside of the point, just like an ordinary pen point (unlike the 1550, which is flat on the underside). The ball is actually longer than it is wide. (It looks as though the ball was made by folding back the end of the steel point -- I guess that's how the 1000 and 2000 series points were generally tipped.)

The result is that it doesn't write like the sample on the box (or on the "Esterbrook point selection chart") -- unless I use it upside down, which is odd because it's a "relief" (left-foot oblique) point.

So I ask again what the original poster asked -- how can I find out the real difference between points?

Or am I doing something wrong? Is there a way to hold the pen right side up and get different line weights in different directions? Or does the ball have to be ground off?

BTW I did also get a 2048 flexible fine point, and I like using it, but I want to experience the difference between using a flexible point and using a stub point. Or do I really want an italic point?

#5 FarmBoy

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 21:58

QUOTE(marty @ May 5 2008, 02:14 PM) View Post
I'm new here ... can I reopen an old topic? YES you can. I just bought a 2442 point and it isn't what I expected. To the naked eye it looks just like the picture referenced above, but with a 5x magnifier I can see that it has a little blob, ball, or whatever you call it on the underside of the point, just like an ordinary pen point (unlike the 1550, which is flat on the underside). The ball is actually longer than it is wide. (It looks as though the ball was made by folding back the end of the steel point -- I guess that's how the 1000 and 2000 series points were generally tipped.)

The result is that it doesn't write like the sample on the box (or on the "Esterbrook point selection chart") -- unless I use it upside down, which is odd because it's a "relief" (left-foot oblique) point.

So I ask again what the original poster asked -- how can I find out the real difference between points?

Or am I doing something wrong? Is there a way to hold the pen right side up and get different line weights in different directions? Or does the ball have to be ground off?

BTW I did also get a 2048 flexible fine point, and I like using it, but I want to experience the difference between using a flexible point and using a stub point. Or do I really want an italic point?


The 2xxx series nibs are exactly what you describe. They were folded over and soldered.

Flex in the Waterman sense does not exist with Esterbrooks. Flex compared to a nail does but that isn't much.

A lot of the nibs need to be tuned out of the box but if you use it a while it should get better. The other option is to go for the 9xxx series nibs.

Todd



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#6 marty

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 23:13

QUOTE(FarmBoy @ May 5 2008, 04:58 PM) View Post
....
Flex in the Waterman sense does not exist with Esterbrooks. Flex compared to a nail does but that isn't much.

A lot of the nibs need to be tuned out of the box but if you use it a while it should get better. The other option is to go for the 9xxx series nibs.

Todd

I guess "flex in the Waterman sense" isn't what I want. The Esterbrook 2048 is flexible enough that if I just write with it, the writing screams "you can't do this with a ball point pen!" That's what I want. I don't want calligraphy.

How would I go about "tuning" it? Is that different from grinding? I gather from another topic that regrinding an antique point is destructive, or heretical, or blasphemous, or something like that, my aging mind can't find the exact word.

As for the 9000 series, I gather from other topics on the web that they were hand finished and therefore somewhat variable, and that machine-made nibs are more consistent. Now, maybe I'm misunderstanding something, and the 2000 series nibs are also hand-finished and therefore variable. But I thought the reason to buy 9000 was durability rather than consistency, and at any rate they would be no more consistent than the 2000 series.

Back to the point: there's a top view of the 2442 (compared with another nib) at
http://www.fountainp...n...9&pid=92498
and a side view at
http://www.fountainp...n...9&pid=92499
and I can see (by rotating one picture and superimposing it on the other) that the blob on the underside is longer than it is wide. So I don't understand how it's supposed to work, and in fact it doesn't work when I use it.

Could I hear from somebody who has experience using the 2442 and can tell me if I'm doing something wrong? Like, I'm looking for the sweet spot in the wrong place?

#7 Gerry

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 03:58

QUOTE(marty @ May 5 2008, 07:13 PM) View Post
QUOTE(FarmBoy @ May 5 2008, 04:58 PM) View Post
....
Flex in the Waterman sense does not exist with Esterbrooks. Flex compared to a nail does but that isn't much.

A lot of the nibs need to be tuned out of the box but if you use it a while it should get better. The other option is to go for the 9xxx series nibs.

Todd

I guess "flex in the Waterman sense" isn't what I want. The Esterbrook 2048 is flexible enough that if I just write with it, the writing screams "you can't do this with a ball point pen!" That's what I want. I don't want calligraphy.

How would I go about "tuning" it? Is that different from grinding? I gather from another topic that regrinding an antique point is destructive, or heretical, or blasphemous, or something like that, my aging mind can't find the exact word.

As for the 9000 series, I gather from other topics on the web that they were hand finished and therefore somewhat variable, and that machine-made nibs are more consistent. Now, maybe I'm misunderstanding something, and the 2000 series nibs are also hand-finished and therefore variable. But I thought the reason to buy 9000 was durability rather than consistency, and at any rate they would be no more consistent than the 2000 series.

Back to the point: there's a top view of the 2442 (compared with another nib) at
http://www.fountainp...n...9&pid=92498
and a side view at
http://www.fountainp...n...9&pid=92499
and I can see (by rotating one picture and superimposing it on the other) that the blob on the underside is longer than it is wide. So I don't understand how it's supposed to work, and in fact it doesn't work when I use it.

Could I hear from somebody who has experience using the 2442 and can tell me if I'm doing something wrong? Like, I'm looking for the sweet spot in the wrong place?


Hmmmm, I remember those photos... wink.gif

Tuning... the act of improving the writing behaviour of a nib by adjusting the alignment, smoothing the tip and perhaps adjusting the ink flow to suit the user's particular writing style and grasp of the pen.

The estie 2xxx nibs were 'folded tine' nibs, and somewhat scratchy out of the box. If yours is new, it's likely in need of smoothing (that's the better term for finishing a nib by polishing than grinding). The disdain you've noticed about 'grinding' - well perhaps not exactly distain, but advice against it is based on the fact that the folded tine nibs won't take much actual metal removal before the fold fractures or separates and you basically lose the nib, but they can be smoothed using fine abrasives. Refer to the pinned articles at the top of the Repair forum for information on both grinding and smoothing.

The 9000 series nibs are tipped and can be ground as can any tipped nib. The 'heretical' aspect of such action exists only in the mind of an obsessive collector, particularly wrt Estie nibs, and needn't be worried about further unless you intend to hover amongst such people.

If your nib has been used, it's likely that it is worn to the hand of the previous owner and may not work well for you. It will certainly need some of the 'corners' removed if badly worn. And don't be surprised if a tip falls off if there is a lot of wear. They were actually made to be easily replaceable, and probably were considered disposable.

Examine the tips carefully with a loupe. If there is misalignment (the two tips aren't at the same level when viewed from the end - or just below as if looking up from the paper) that has to be corrected before proceeding - it may cure the problem by itself. If that doesn't work, try smoothing the corners of the nib point - the outside edges first, and the inside edges next, using a fine grained film (1-0.5 micron perhaps). Actually, you should try to determine the direction the scratchiness appears - ie moving to the left, or the right. If the nib catches when moving to the right, then you have to smooth the outside right side of the right tine, and the inside right edge of the left tine.. etc...

Not sure of your question regarding the shape of the tip.

As Todd says, there's some variation from nib to nib out of the box, and it's not unusual to have to do some work - even on a NOS nib to get it to feel really smooth. If you don't want to try the smoothing yourself, there's many on the FPN who could help you out.

Regards,

Gerry

#8 asamsky

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 12:31

Just a note from the purists who were debating what to do with old Renew Points in another thread: people were objecting to grinding old Renew Points into italics (deliberately destroying the original point), not just polishing them up to smooth writing level.

That said, Marty, I suggest you try to find a 9xxx series nib. I recently got a 9314f (fine stub) and a 9048 (fine flexible) and they are really amazingly good. The 9048 gives a very nice shading without making it difficult to write, and in fact the 9314 looks almost the same (at least in my handwriting).

#9 gyasko

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 22:33

I have a 2284, which is a broad, signature stub. It's a great writer, very wet and smooth. It's my favourite Esterbrook nib so far.

#10 Jasper

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 23:32

QUOTE(asamsky @ May 7 2008, 12:31 PM) View Post
That said, Marty, I suggest you try to find a 9xxx series nib. I recently got a 9314f (fine stub) and a 9048 (fine flexible) and they are really amazingly good. The 9048 gives a very nice shading without making it difficult to write, and in fact the 9314 looks almost the same (at least in my handwriting).

These are the two nibs i am currently considering. Any chance of posting a handwriting sample of each? embarrassed_smile.gif
It would be much appreciated...
~Jasper

#11 marty

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 23:46

Thanks for all the explanations. Now that I know what tuning is, I know it's not the answer to my problem. Let me show you what I mean.

I have three new old stock renew points, fresh out of the box last Friday, installed in three J type pens filled with blue-black Skrip. I wrote a sample on the back of a computer printout (on Georgia Pacific Advantage Multi-System paper) in my ordinary handwriting. Then I scanned it at 200 dpi (so on a 96 dpi screen it would be about 2x life size). The sample shows the 2442, the 2442 upside down, the 2048, and for comparison the 2556.

PenWrite.gif

The 2442 right side up looks more medium than fine. I don't see any line variation in the 2442 right side up, maybe some in the 2556, definitely some in the 2442 upside down, and a little more in the 2048. I'm happy with the 2048, but I didn't think I would have to hold the 2442 upside down to get noticeable line variation.

I see that while I was preparing this, Jasper asked for samples of two different nibs. Maybe comparing those 9000 series points with my 2000 series points would help (even though the handwriting and other factors would be different).

About the shape of the point, here's a composite of parts of the images I reference earlier, showing top and side view of the point of the 2442 nib (adjusted to the same scale). The blob on the underside of the point is longer than the width of the point. How can it lay down fine horizontal strokes?
Pen2442point.jpg

Am I holding the pen wrong? Or do I want to grind it to an italic?


#12 asamsky

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Posted 08 May 2008 - 01:25

QUOTE(Jasper @ May 7 2008, 07:32 PM) View Post
QUOTE(asamsky @ May 7 2008, 12:31 PM) View Post
That said, Marty, I suggest you try to find a 9xxx series nib. I recently got a 9314f (fine stub) and a 9048 (fine flexible) and they are really amazingly good. The 9048 gives a very nice shading without making it difficult to write, and in fact the 9314 looks almost the same (at least in my handwriting).

These are the two nibs i am currently considering. Any chance of posting a handwriting sample of each? embarrassed_smile.gif
It would be much appreciated...
~Jasper


Of course!





I recommend both of these nibs - they're a lot of fun. The flex nib is stiff enough that you could use it as a regular fine and write very quickly, but it has enough flex to do some pretty entertaining shaded writing too. As you can see the stub isn't too obvious, but on a whole page of writing it really looks italic and interesting.

#13 Jasper

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Posted 08 May 2008 - 02:10

QUOTE(asamsky @ May 8 2008, 01:25 AM) View Post
QUOTE(Jasper @ May 7 2008, 07:32 PM) View Post
QUOTE(asamsky @ May 7 2008, 12:31 PM) View Post
That said, Marty, I suggest you try to find a 9xxx series nib. I recently got a 9314f (fine stub) and a 9048 (fine flexible) and they are really amazingly good. The 9048 gives a very nice shading without making it difficult to write, and in fact the 9314 looks almost the same (at least in my handwriting).

These are the two nibs i am currently considering. Any chance of posting a handwriting sample of each? embarrassed_smile.gif
It would be much appreciated...
~Jasper


Of course!





I recommend both of these nibs - they're a lot of fun. The flex nib is stiff enough that you could use it as a regular fine and write very quickly, but it has enough flex to do some pretty entertaining shaded writing too. As you can see the stub isn't too obvious, but on a whole page of writing it really looks italic and interesting.

Thanks so much for posting these! I was tending toward the flex before...now i'm more sure. I really like how it can be a 'fine' normal writer and also a nib with 'character'.
Thanks again...

#14 marty

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 19:06

Thanks, asamsky, for the samples. Let me compare them with the way my points write.

First the two Flexible Extra Fine points, same design, different quality grade. First your 9048 Master Point

and my 2048 Duracrome point

They don't look very different; any differences might be due to different pressure or different image magnification.

Now two different designs with the same name, Fine Stub, but different numbers as well as different quality grades. First, your 9314F Master Point

and my 2442 Duracrome point

They don't look at all similar (to me, anyway).

Why is my Fine Stub so different from your Fine Stub? Alternatively: if they're so different, why are they both called Fine Stub points?




#15 asamsky

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Posted 09 May 2008 - 19:26

It is a mystery! My 9314 is kind of scratchy and has very little (if any) tipping on it, so it may just be worn compared to yours.

#16 marty

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 13:34

About the 2442 Fine Stub, I wrote:

QUOTE(marty @ May 7 2008, 07:46 PM) View Post
Am I holding the pen wrong? Or do I want to grind it to an italic?

Rather than regrind the 2442, I ground off the ball from the underside of a 2968 Broad Writing nib and shaped it more or less to an italic. It came out somewhat flexible, which just makes it more interesting, since I'm not aiming for disciplined calligraphy. I like what I got, and I sacrificed a cheaper, less scarce nib.

Question: when you regrind an Esterbrook nib, do you leave the original number on it?






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