Rolled gold vs. Gold Plating

[Roger]

A little rich for my blood, at this time, Eric, but it is a metal pen that I could really go for with its plastic gripping area. A real boardroom pen!

 

Im curious, what does the hallmark say about the content and what karat the gold is in that mix?

 

 

Edit by Admin: This thread has been split from:

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/in...showtopic=4409#

Edited October 7, 2005 by FPN Admin Team

[eric.zamir]

Hi Roger:

I read an article about the various meanings with respect to gold content in pens; perhaps someone on this board recalls it - it dealt with gold plate, electroplate, rolled gold, gold filled, etc.

It says rolled gold. It certainly isn't solid gold, or I wouldn't have been able to buy it in the first place, nor would I be selling it for "only" $850!!!!

Honestly, it's a little rich for my blood these days as well!

But it's a fantastic and historical Pelikan pen.

I bought it because it was made in my birth year, 1957.

I don't look at it as a boardroom pen. That would be a big Delta Venezia, or a Montegrappa (I'm trying to avoid saying 149...), etc.

This is more subtle and classy, and is a super comfortable pen to carry, hold and write with. No worries about making it through the day on one tank. Holds lots more than, say, modern Montblancs.

Regards,

Eric

[Roger]

Hi Eric,

 

Yes, I've done a bit of reading on the various terms having to do with gold and it seems that Rolled Gold and Gold Filled are often used interchangeably. They are, obviously, not solid karat gold, but instead are more like an alloy of gold. Usually, RG or GF will have a marking somewhere on it like: 2/10 18K. That would indicate 20% of it is 18K gold and whether it is rolled into the surface of the base metal or not doesn't alter the fact that it is vastly different that Gold Plate which is usually pitifully small amounts of gold electrodeposited on the base metal. RG and GF will not "brass" as GP will because there is much more gold there and because it is virtually part of the base metal as opposed to being a micron thick deposition on the surface.

 

So, I assume that you have looked all over the pen and can't find any designation, eh? Strange! The price level certainly bespeaks RG.

 

I have a Cross BP and PCL set from about the early 1960s and though it is very small and faint, sure enough, there is a marking on them that says, 1/20 14KT Gold Filled. And, true to its markings there are light wear marks on it, but no "brassing" as we would call it over all these years. Pretty stuff!

[Guest Denis Richard]

I think there might not be any legally required markings for RG or GF. Thus, marking is up to the maker. Is that right ?

[Roger]

I think there might not be any legally required markings for RG or GF. Thus, marking is up to the maker. Is that right ?

Dunno, Denis. There should be, though. Otherwise, an offering containing 5% of 9 KT gold could carry the same RG designation as one with 20% of 18 KT gold.

 

Anyone on here have some jewelry smarts wrt the law on this, if any?

[Guest Denis Richard]

I think there might not be any legally required markings for RG or GF. Thus, marking is up to the maker. Is that right ?

Dunno, Denis. There should be, though. Otherwise, an offering containing 5% of 9 KT gold could carry the same RG designation as one with 20% of 18 KT gold.

 

Anyone on here have some jewelry smarts wrt the law on this, if any?

Well... even with variations, rolled gold is rolled gold. You're never going to get rich if you fidn a way to scratch it off the pen. The value of the gold itself is not going to be much... few bucks ?

 

Except for solid gold pens, for the rest (RG, plated, GF)... not much to get there is term of metal value. It makes it easier to consider RG as plating (ducking the purists shots...).

[Roger]

Yeah, I'm one taking the purist shots!

 

Though in terms of the gold's worth there is a huge difference. It increases the cost considerably, and what it does for the good looks and life expectancy of, say, the cap is large, man, large!

 

Consider a micron of GP. You're the scientific type; it must have many zeros in the denominator of its fractional value of an ounce. The 10% 16 KT GF cap probably has many, many orders of magnitude more oz. weight than the GP'd unit. But, the most important part is how that gold is right in there with the base metal, virtually alloyed with it. Doesn't a cap and trim that won't brass appeal more than one that will brass with only the slightest use?

 

Lastly, if there weren't much difference, then why don't most modern pen makers use RG or GF today? You well know the reason. Look at the old Parker 51 caps in GF. A light polish and they look like new! Try that in 50 years with a modern GP cap.

 

Why did I write all this, when you're just playing with my head?

[Guest Denis Richard]

Ok, I'll give you that RG is a thick plating I'm still really not convinced that there is that much cost difference in materials, if you were to take the thickest plating and the thinnest RG. As to why manufacturers prefer plating... well, there is no small saving

 

Seriously, the content of precious metal is often really not a big factor for pricing vintage pens. Not directly at least.

 

Still seriously, may be this can help (from Goldsmith's Company website (UK), on their page on hallmarks) : "Italy, Germany, Greece and Luxembourg do not have independent systems of guarantee. "... so no mandatory hallmark.

 

I think the best way to have an answer concerning the actual content on an unmarked pen that is not that old, would be to contact the manufacturer (in that case Pelikan); I'm pretty sure someone there should have the answer.

[Roger]

Manufacture of RG and GF products is much more labor intensive. That plus the extra (and it is much more...do the math) gold and there is greater cost to produce. And, RG and GF IS NOT THICK PLATING! It's not plating, at all! Geesh! More like an amalgam.

 

GP is done rapidly and cheaply by electro deposition or vapor deposition. Again, why, if GF and RG is as inexpensive to do as GP, isn't it done nowadays on the usual production pens that most of us considerable affordable? Because it isn't as inexpensive, that's why. GF and RG is reserved for higher end pens, because it is more expensive and won't wear off as will plating. Not as glam as solid karat gold, but it IS that next step up.

 

So, if hallmarking isn't required, I will not buy a product that is touted as RG or GF unless it has the markings. Now, the pen that started it all...I wouldn't be surprised if a thorough inspection with a loupe wouldn't turn one up. Pel is asking for more faith than I have to not include it, yet sell it at the price premium reserved for RG, GF vs. GP. They all look great when new. Use 'em some and let the ravages of time at them, then see what looks best! No contest!

 

I'm not even going to proof read this missive. Bedtime for Bonzo!

[Guest Denis Richard]

Hi Roger,

 

I don't know what the technique was for that particular pen in the 1950's but electro-plating is cheap plating. Plating used to be done by actually heating a sheet of metal onto the base metal. The micro-micro-micron is recent stuff. I vaguely remember a threshold (1/20 ?) over which you can use the term rolled gold or gold filled, and under that a general gold plating is to be used.

 

The x/10 is also a very odd mark that does not tell anything. I just need to use twice less base metal, stretch it to make a thinner pen body, and I go from a 1/10 to a 2/10. Some rolled gold items can have as less as 50 microns or so of gold thickness. Gold content is also an issue. Pelikan most likely would have used a 18kt alloy to be able to sell on all European markets, while US manufacturers commonly use 10kt.

 

Bottom line, if we are not speaking cheapest electro-plate, depending on origin and production era, you could have a rolled gold pen that has less gold content than a plated one.

 

As far as trust in the hallmarks are concerned, I would not be astonished if jewelry hallmarks are guaranted only by the jeweler. Thus, hallmark or just description from the manufacturer is equivalent. That's how it is in France at least. The state does not tour all jewelry or factories every day to add official marks. They are put only on the raw material, before transformation.

 

Finally, concerning the price of that particular pen, we are speaking vintage here. A Pelikan 100 can go easily for $500, and I promise you that there is for no more than $10-$20 of material in it. On the other hand, I have a vintage solid silver pen that I bought for $50. The real cost of materials has not much to do with the pen prices. It is true for modern pens, and it is even more true for vintage, where so many factors come to play, such as rarity or market trends.

 

Denis.

 

Edit : I just checked the definition of plating, and RG/GF is indeed technically plating. Thick, good one but still technically "thick plating". Saying that just to be a bit more push-buttons

Edited October 7, 2005 by Denis Richard

[eric.zamir]

It's not bothering me. Knowledge never hurts!

I also saw the site cited by Maja before purchasing (thanks Maja!), as well as www.penexchange.de.

The pricing of the pen has to do with what I paid (after relatively thorough market research), plus the Binderization. Not based on materials.

My mother has a pre-1920 Waterman black rubber 54 with a silver inlay. I think the materials are worth $25. Or my 1934 ish Burgundy oversize (three-band cap) Vacumatic in optimal condition, with Mottishized correct B stub nib. Probably less than that! Go price 'em! Go figure, as they say.

That's actually one of the reasons I'm selling. I prefer to keep pens I can use hard, take with me, etc., without worrying about denting, scratching, dropping, losing an $800+ pen.

I have one or two that I will not part with, and that won't leave home (Delta Pompei and Venezia), but I prefer to run around with a Lamy 2000 Stainless LE, or my Pelikan 760M (a sort of 520NN reproduction from the '80's). They are special, and not CHEAP, but slightly more down to earth!

I realize what I'm saying could be construed as an argument against buying a pen like mine. It's not. If I had the means, I would certainly keep it, and use it in the right setting. But when you have to make choices,

i.e., to sell the Pompei or the Pelikan, in my case the Pompei stays.

As soon as my wife sends me the box for my MB Edgar Allen Poe (with BB stub nib custom installed by MB in Hamburg), that's going too, as well as a MIB Dupont Blue Orfeo. There will be better times and other pens! And, as we all know, there is always ink, as a small comfort!

Edited October 7, 2005 by eric.zamir

[Roger]

Much to continue arguing on your last, Denis, but I'm not going to give you the satisfaction. Only to say that France and most of EU, I believe, use 18K as the min. on solid karat stuff. I don't think the requirement exists for RG or GF to use 18K.

 

Given my druthers, and having a choice of two otherwise identical pens, I'd opt for the RG or GF everytime. Makers use GP *BECAUSE* they can get away with a beautiful look to the product while new, but it costs less to produce! EOM (That's end of message. I'd have said QED but Wim doesn't think I know what that means )

[Guest Denis Richard]

If the alloy that came in your shop is not 18kt or more, whatever you do with it can never bear the name gold. Also, we do not use the terms rolled gold or gold filled. It is either solid gold or gold plated with mention of the thickness of the layer.

[Chris]

OK I'll add my understanding - to be contradicted if necessary and corrected please if I'm wrong.

 

Solid gold is simply "gold" and cmes in many carats/karats up to 24K (pure gold). 9K is generally the minimum (= 9/24ths pure gold by weight.) It will be hallmarked.

 

Rolled gold and filled gold are (the same?) ways to produce the effect/look and even durability of solid gold (ie does not wear off and 'brass' if done well) by adding a thick layer of real gold to another metal (like brass).

 

Rolled gold/filled gold can come in many different carats/karats too but this refers only to the purity of the gold layer and not to the proportion of gold in the whole.

 

I have Cross pens/pencils in 10K 12K 14K and 18K rolled/filled gold. The colours vary nicely. Ther are clearly labelled/engraved/stamped by Cross. Importantly, none are hallmarked because they are not solid gold. Solid gold is too rich for me

 

Gold plating is quick, easy and temporary. It wears off with use and looks awful very quickly.

 

Well, as I say, that is my understanding.

 

Edit...

Sorry, forgot to say - Cheers, Chris

Edited October 14, 2005 by Chris

[Kees]

Hi all,

I have never really thought about these differences and I find it interesting to read your views on them. As I looked for further information I stumbled across the homepage of the Gold Institute (looks serious!), from which I quote:

Gold Filled: also called gold overlay, a layer of at least 10-karat gold permanenetly bonded by heat and pressure to one of more surfaces of a supporting metal, then rolled or drawn to a prescribed thickness. The karat gold must be at least 1/20 by weight of the total meta content.

Rolled Gold Plate: Material consisting of a layer of plating of 10-karat gold or better which is mechanically bonded to a base metal. The karat gold content may be less than 1/20 but must be properly identified by weight in terms of total metal content.

Gold Electroplate: A coating of at least 10-karat gold or gold alloy plated on a base metal by electrolysis. The gold plating must be at least seven-millionths of an inch thick. Electroplating is widely used in the electronics and aerospace industries.

Gold Wash or Gold Flash: A film of gold less than seven-millionths of an inch thick, electroplated on a base metal.

Vermeil: Sterling silver coated or plated on all significant surfaces with gold or gold alloy of not less than 10-karat fineness.

In the US of A anything under 10K can’t be sold as “gold” anymore. In Europe, there seems to be no norm generally agreed upon: in the Netherlands 583 = 14K is the minimum, in Germany even 333 = 8K passes as “gold”.

 

Kees

[marklavar]

Interesting thread.

 

I have a 10 micron 18k gold plated Caran D'Ache Leman and a 23k gold plated Parker Sonnet. Both pens look excellent, but when I picked up a Cross Townsend 18k 'gold filled' pen, I didn't find it very shiny. Rather dull I'd say.

 

My opinion is that, in practical terms, there is little difference between gold plated and gold filled - despite all the metallurgical mumbo-jumbo. What matters is what a pen looks like and feels like. Neither gold plated or gold filled is anywhere near what solid gold is llike in both feel and appearance, and any differences are a matter of splitting hairs.

While I understand that solid 18k gold is amazingly expensive, 9-10k solid gold would bring the price of a pen down to a more reasonable, even if still very high, level. Why don't manufacturers make 9-10k solid gold pens any more? These would make beautiful top of the range models. I would also like to see Vermeil used more often, as it has a special and unique quality.