Considering Conklin All American Ebony Wood

[Honeybadgers]

 

From Sailor's June 2013 press release (translated by Google):

A fountain pen in collaboration with "Kakunodate Denshiro" who continues to make high-quality birch work.The technique of "Kabazaiku", in which the bark of wild cherry blossoms is peeled off, shaved thinly, and pasted together, is incorporated into a fountain pen.

See also http://denshiro.jp/en/kabazaiku/.

 

In spite of the briar and Yakusugi models being designated "#3776 Century", I haven't found their inner caps to be spring-loaded like the Slip and Seal mechanism. It shouldn't be just a matter of these pens having snap-caps, either; the Platinum Plaisir also has a snap-cap, but it has a perfectly functional, spring-loaded inner cap.

 

 

That's what the inner cap or lining is for, no? Failure to install such on the inside of the cap as part and parcel of the design cheapens a pen, in my opinion. Having an inner cap that doesn't seal the nib in an airtight manner when the pen is capped, on the other hand, is just incompetent.

 

I dunno why, but wood chassis pens (at least ones in the price ranges I've ever been able to handle) just never seem to have a proper inner cap liner.

 

Not all pens need one, and some get away with good machining of an inner step that the section seals against. A really good demonstrator pen should do its best to avoid using one and instead use good machine tolerances (a-la conid or pelikan)

 

Injection molded, natural material, or metal on metal threads will never seal properly, but good machine cut ones always should (even cheap chinese acrylic pens tend to be extremely resistant to dry out)

[Estycollector]

 

Whoops, I'll go tell my cello, antique recorder collection, and custom Selmer Paris Tenor saxophone to get out of my house.

 

And I better stop working with the Piatigorsky Foundation. Paul and Linda Rosenthal are probably glad to be rid of me.

 

And I'll tell my marching and orchestral directors they should forget I ever existed.

 

Same goes for my state titles for Jazz.

 

And I'll go burn all that music I wrote in school.

 

Because I can't possibly also play an instrument as well.

 

If you happened to also be a luthier, I'd defer to your judgement however.

Anyone who speaks of anothers experience or knowledge out of ignorance has no rational basis for comment beyond an attempt to save face.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Estycollector

[Honeybadgers]

Anyone who speaks of anothers experience or knowledge out of ignorance has no rational basis for comment beyond an attempt to save face.

 

So, you're saying I called you wrong because I'm ignorant - that I don't know what I'm talking about - that I'm wrong in what I stated about ebonite and its famous idiosyncrasies? I wasn't calling you dumb or insulting you, just pointing out that you're not really correct in that ebony's problems are based on quality or people trying to pass off african blackwood (which while not ebony, looks like it, and is actually more stable) So saying that there is "not real" ebony out there is also misleading, because all the ebony "imposter" woods are actually more stable. And to top it off, the "imposter" blackwood is actually more rare and expensive than ebony, specifically because it's generally better for most applications. Ebony is not an inherently unstable wood, it just needs a long, LONG time to cure and acclimate before it becomes stable. That's why lots of fingerboards by reputable makers DON'T crack, and ones made by home-gamers do. The big brand has a big warehouse full of ebony that it's been drying and acclimating for years, the home-gamer just used the blank he got from an exotic wood vendor that got it from the kilns 3 weeks prior.

 

And also pointing out your experience as a musician shows a little skew on the behavior of the wood, which on a nice (relatively) thick fretboard, is going to be much more stable than a 1/8th-1/16th inch thick hollow chunk of wood. Trust me. I've had so much ebony explode in my hands over the years, or split a week after I made a pen (I got really good at filling the cracks with crushed turquoise stone powder and salvaging the piece, but even then, customers still had problems with them splitting months or years later, much more often in humid places, since my shop was in Az)

 

Wood placed under tension (being cut into a cylinder with a cap at one end) that is not sufficiently dry will suddenly have its inner fibers exposed to the air, so it will RAPIDLY contract, and being so unbelievably dense, it just has no give in its structure and the only option is to split.

 

To quote Rob Johnstone, editor for Woodworker's journal and Rockler,

 

Rob Johnstone: His wood is not sufficiently dry or acclimatized to his shop’s relative humidity. What happens, as he turns knobs, is that he exposes the inner (moister) wood fibers of the ebony’s interior, which then dry out and shrink. A round wooden object will shrink across one axis of the piece, causing it to distort or crack. So, the solution is to get drier wood one way or another:, either by just waiting, or by accelerating the drying process. Another practical option is to remove a bit of the wood, set it aside for a while to let moisture content equalize, then do a bit more machining … and repeat.

 

 

I'm wrong all the time and am fully prepared to eat crow when someone points out my ignorance on a subject, and I mean absolutely no offense. I snapped back at you a bit because you insulted me. Your statement was a little ignorant and misleading, so I corrected it. Nothing personal, nothing more.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Honeybadgers

[Estycollector]

Your ignorant of my knowledge and experience. Do you you require it to be explained more simply?

 

My fiddles, guitars, and open back Banjos were specified for ebony or striped.

 

I prefer true ebony for longevity. Amy more questions?

 

Good Fn grief. Why do some have to project being the smartest person in the room ?????😂😂😂😂😂

[corniche]

..Why do some have to project being the smartest person in the room ?????😂😂😂😂😂

Hi Esty,

 

I dunno. But I know that'll never be an issue with me; I know I'm a dope on a lot of things, but I'm a happy dope.

 

 

- Sean

[A Smug Dill]

I dunno. But I know that'll never be an issue with me;

 

Some of us are more interested in asserting and/or "proving" that someone else in present company, so to speak, isn't "the smartest person in the room", I suppose. I know I habitually do it to "democratise" discussion in forums of peers and equals, so that nobody gets to control the narrative and pretend there is inherent merit in science-based over faith-based arguments^† (or vice versa!), conservative over liberal^†, strict over permissive^†, broad over fine^†, etc.; everyone's is just a minority opinion and/or position of no higher standing than anyone else's, and nobody — being all "nobodies" to each other — gets to pull rank or claim superiority credibly over anyone else.

 

That said, the highest personal compliment I still cherish to this day was by a director of my former employer, some months after I left, when he held a "town hall" meeting with his staff. As told to me later (i.e. hearsay only) by former colleagues who were there, he said, "I wish Dill was here. He was always the smartest (bleep) in the room, and would quickly tell you in no uncertain terms what was wrong or unsound with what you said in front of everyone just then." Not being in the room made it better!

 

^† Or vice versa!

Edited October 28, 2020 by A Smug Dill

[Honeybadgers]

Your ignorant of my knowledge and experience. Do you you require it to be explained more simply?

 

My fiddles, guitars, and open back Banjos were specified for ebony or striped.

 

I prefer true ebony for longevity. Amy more questions?

 

Good Fn grief. Why do some have to project being the smartest person in the room ?????

 

I am - at all times - very far from the smartest person in the room. But I like sharing what I do know and learning from others, and when I'm wrong, I enjoy learning why. Every once in a while someone gets a really insecure bee in their bonnet and decides to rail against me for it. We're both adults, I did not insult you, and you've been flatly rude to me three times now. Not much I can say to that apart from continue to point out that you really don't know much about the actual subject of this conversation but I've neither attacked you, nor implied you were dumber than me. I don't believe you are in the slightest.

 

Every single thing you've said does nothing to disprove what I said. So you've had instruments made for you out of that wood? How, again, does that translate to you understanding its idiosyncrasies, how it works in things other than string instruments, how it's manufactured, alternatives on the market, if there's a black market or counterfeit substance, where it's harvested, or how it's dried and shaped? Please don't say "knowledge and experience" again without actually giving us some examples. I've shared what I know, either do the same or stop telling me I'm wrong just because you're upset.

 

You are correct in that true ebony will outlast african blackwood on an instrument fretboard. But it's not a magical material. Blackwood is less hard, but it's more tough. so a pen or other small or thin object made from blackwood will be more stable, but less scratch/ding resistant. So that's why an ebony fretboard makes a lot of sense, but ebony in pens, knife scales, and other small objects is famously a pain in the ass. But "true ebony is only on instruments" is patently false and you're digging in your heels on spreading an ignorant conjecture. Ebony is ebony, and the most important thing is not that you source "real" ebony, but that you actually take the time to ensure it's reached equilibrium with ambient humidity before working. I don't see why we're arguing about this.

 

I'm not going to engage you further in this thread. You've insulted me several times now, and I feel like I've pretty well explained why you're incorrect and tried to be respectful doing so.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Honeybadgers

[corniche]

 

Some of us are more interested in asserting and/or "proving" that someone else in present company, so to speak, isn't "the smartest person in the room", I suppose. I know I habitually do it to "democratise" discussion in forums of peers and equals, so that nobody gets to control the narrative and pretend there is inherent merit in science-based over faith-based arguments (or vice versa!), conservative over liberal, strict over permissive, broad over fine, etc.; everyone's is just a minority opinion and/or position of no higher standing than anyone else's, and nobody being all "nobodies" to each other gets to pull rank or claim superiority credibly over anyone else.

 

That said, the highest personal compliment I still cherish to this day was by a director of my former employer, some months after I left, when he held a "town hall" meeting with his staff. As told to me later (i.e. hearsay only) by former colleagues who were there, he said, "I wish Dill was here. He was always the smartest (bleep) in the room, and would quickly tell you in no uncertain terms what was wrong or unsound with what you said in front of everyone just then." Not being in the room made it better!

 

Or vice versa!

Hi Smug,

 

Well, some things are worth fighting about and other things are not. I just think it serves no useful purpose to have ill will or slighted feelings over the density of wood.

 

 

- Sean

[Estycollector]

I agree, Sean. I've said what needed to be said from a players perspective and as someone with relationships with custom builders, who have never complained.

[corniche]

I agree, Sean. I've said what needed to be said from a players perspective and as someone with relationships with custom builders, who have never complained.

👍

 

 

- Sean

[JosephKing]

...I did not insult you, and you've been flatly rude to me three times now. ...

Hello, Honeybadgers.

 

Since you've brought up an emotional component to the argument, perhaps I can provide some assistance (my only credential is sensitivity)

 

Your knowledge is very valuable.

 

But there is also something rather confrontational about starting a conversation with:

 

noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooope

and proceeding to explain your extensive experience. I could see myself being offended by it if I were proud of my association to the knowledge you are refuting.

 

Would it have been possible to start from Esty's perspective (What experience do you have with finger boards? etc...) and then worked the conversation back to your perspective? Or is the "strength" of your start a necessary part of the conversation (Esty is propogating something which offends your own knowledge and experience)?

Edited October 28, 2020 by JosephKing

[Honeybadgers]

Hello, Honeybadgers.

 

Since you've brought up an emotional component to the argument, perhaps I can provide some assistance (my only credential is sensitivity)

 

Your knowledge is very valuable.

 

But there is also something rather confrontational about starting a conversation with:

 

 

and proceeding to explain your extensive experience. I could see myself being offended by it if I were proud of my association to the knowledge you are refuting.

 

Would it have been possible to start from Esty's perspective (What experience do you have with finger boards? etc...) and then worked the conversation back to your perspective? Or is the "strength" of your start a necessary part of the conversation (Esty is propogating something which offends your own knowledge and experience)?

 

Fair enough. I had no intention of that to be hostile, but I can see how it may have been a little disrespectful of an ignorant opinion.

 

For that, I apologize to esty, I can see how he may have been put on the back foot by my comment there. All the rest he's still factually wrong on, and both statements can be taken as separate and equally valid.

Edited October 28, 2020 by Honeybadgers

[corniche]

 

Fair enough. I had no intention of that to be hostile, but I can see how it may have been a little disrespectful of an ignorant opinion.

Hi Honeybadgers,

 

I really don't want to get in the middle of this - and my knowledge of exotic woods ranks right up there with knowing the fine points of ocular surgery...

 

...but I have to say this is a veiled apology at best - it reads more like a veiled insult. But that's for your conscience to determine - I cannot read your intentions; only your words.

 

Peace.

 

 

- Sean

[Honeybadgers]

Hi Honeybadgers,

 

I really don't want to get in the middle of this - and my knowledge of exotic woods ranks right up there with knowing the fine points of ocular surgery...

 

...but I have to say this is a veiled apology at best - it reads more like a veiled insult. But that's for your conscience to determine - I cannot read your intentions; only your words.

 

Peace.

 

 

- Sean

 

The actual apology was literally on the next line. the first was an admission that I may have been overzealous. I will wholeheartedly admit that I can see how my first word (long as it was) was reasonably misconstrued as a personal attack. Beyond that, I can't take fault for someone engaging me in a negative and unpleasant or unhelpful way. My goal isn't to appease esty if he is determined to not find common ground. If he had said "hey, that was kinda rude man." I would have flatly apologized, no caveats. That didn't happen. And you guys pointed out a moment for personal growth and I'd be a fool not to see it.

 

I appreciate you and josephking being neutral moderators on the discussion.

Edited October 29, 2020 by Honeybadgers

[A Smug Dill]

I had no intention of that to be hostile, but I can see how it may have been a little disrespectful of an ignorant opinion.

 

 

Expressly characterising someone else's opinion as "ignorant" is provocative and hostile, I'd say. It's one thing to present so much "science", data and/or other evidence that someone's position is wrong and/or untenable, and let others decide, but I don't think you (or anyone else) gets to pass yourself off as an arbiter with superior knowledge, credentials or authority to pass open judgment.

 

By all means, do your best to state your case objectively in order to motivate dozens, hundreds or even thousands of others of your (and the target's) equals and peers in the forum to disagree with what you consider is factually incorrect or logically unsound, but don't pretend for a moment that your say carries more weight than his, hers or anyone else's. Make them look foolish if you must, without any pretensions that you aren't only of the same standing in the community.

 

I'm not preaching harmony. I'm not saying you ought to give undue respect to someone's feelings and refrain from undermining their statements, views, position, etc. But if you want to fight, then fight like you're nobody any more special or important than the next faceless forum member as far as the readership is concerned.

 

Calling someone ignorant merely invites your fellows — including but not limited to the target of your ridicule — to label you just as mercilessly, even if some of them choose not to do so in the open because they value social harmony (even though I don't) above caring for your ego.

[Estycollector]

https://ruokangas.com/specifications/ebony/

 

http://www.wiredguitarist.com/2016/05/16/rosewood-vs-maple-vs-ebony-fretboards/

 

https://leftyfretz.com/guitar-fretboard-wood-choices/

 

 

Preference for fretboard wood is highly personal. I once sourced an ebony board for a violin maker. The weight of an ebony board is surprisingly heavy compared to other materials like rosewood or maple.

 

I have a couple snake wood fiddle bows that I enjoy.

Edited October 29, 2020 by Estycollector

[thewolfgang]

I hope this argument can simmer down. The emotions, as strong as they are, pale in comparison to discussions of woods for string instruments, esp cellos which is my bailiwick.

[corniche]

I hope this argument can simmer down.

 

Me, too, Wolfgang.

 

I'm gonna do my part by whistling a happy tune - which we can use here - it's been pouring since last night.

 

https://youtu.be/NvPNYs7Baps

 

 

...The emotions, as strong as they are, pale in comparison to discussions of woods for string instruments, esp cellos which is my bailiwick.

I have heard this from others.

 

 

- Sean

[Estycollector]

I prefer red spruce and mahogany

[Honeybadgers]

 

 

Expressly characterising someone else's opinion as "ignorant" is provocative and hostile, I'd say. It's one thing to present so much "science", data and/or other evidence that someone's position is wrong and/or untenable, and let others decide, but I don't think you (or anyone else) gets to pass yourself off as an arbiter with superior knowledge, credentials or authority to pass open judgment.

 

By all means, do your best to state your case objectively in order to motivate dozens, hundreds or even thousands of others of your (and the target's) equals and peers in the forum to disagree with what you consider is factually incorrect or logically unsound, but don't pretend for a moment that your say carries more weight than his, hers or anyone else's. Make them look foolish if you must, without any pretensions that you aren't only of the same standing in the community.

 

I'm not preaching harmony. I'm not saying you ought to give undue respect to someone's feelings and refrain from undermining their statements, views, position, etc. But if you want to fight, then fight like you're nobody any more special or important than the next faceless forum member as far as the readership is concerned.

 

Calling someone ignorant merely invites your fellows — including but not limited to the target of your ridicule — to label you just as mercilessly, even if some of them choose not to do so in the open because they value social harmony (even though I don't) above caring for your ego.

 

I appreciate your points Gil. You're very correct. But also, I can't resist (just poking fun)

 

 

Personally, ignorance is absolutely nothing to be ashamed of in the least. I'm ignorant to an absolute multitude of things, as are you, every nobel laureate and other human being on the planet.

 

Ignorance is simply a lack of education on a subject. It's not a negative personality trait or lack of intelligence. Now when you take that ignorance and double down into it and refuse to budge, or make that ignorance an unyielding aspect of your personality of sense of self or self worth, that's where we border into stupidity (which nobody in this thread is doing)

 

A quote my psychology professor always used that I really love is this:

 

"Ignorance is cured through education. Stupidity is terminal."

 

I am by no means a smart person. But what I am proud of is that I take every chance I reasonably can to share what I do know, and hope that others do the same so I can learn what they know. Most people tend to appreciate and engage with that (I have taught quite a few things, from triathlon/masters swimming, to tutoring at my college, to instruction at a local racing school, and I'm currently a field training officer for new medics with my company.)

 

But sometimes someone just takes sharing knowledge as a personal attack on their own, so they clam up and decide that I'm just being a know-it-all (this is very specifically not directed at etsy since he did have a reasonable grievance, as much as I disagree with how he handled it) In my experience this is pretty rare, but all people are different and while I know I can always do better (as pointed out by a couple people) sometimes it's just not possible to please everyone.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Honeybadgers