Jump to content

Difference Between Samples And Bottles?


ScottT

Recommended Posts

Ok, I made a mistake.

 

A few years (yes, years) ago I ordered a sample of Noodler's Red-Black from Goulet.

 

Loved it.

 

Came across an old sample page with the RB on it, and wondered why I never got around to ordering a bottle at the time.

 

This was the mistake. Not ordering it at the time.

 

So I figure, why not now? I read a few current reviews, and there seemed to be a bit of a love-hate thing going on, with some folk seeing what I had seen in the ink, that marvelous duality of red and black, while others stated it was an unappetizing mud brown.

 

Ok, people see things differently, there was even one poster (apologies, cannot remember name) who had a very astute take on it, discussing different ways of viewing things.

 

Anyway, I order the ink. (Not from Goulet's.)

 

You guess it, mud brown. Not cool brown, like Noodler's Walnut, but the blandest brown.

 

Needless to say, I'm quite disappointed. I don't often make ink purchases, and to have one I knew I liked turn out to be a, well, bottle of brown something something, it's annoying.

 

So, the realization I should have ordered a bottle back when I liked the sample aside, two questions (and thanks to those that read this far) remain.

 

1) How much variation can there be between bottles/batches? I could understand small shifts in color, but to completely miss the balance needed and get mud, how did that ever pass QC?

 

2) If I DID buy a bottle a couple of weeks after using up the sample, how can one be sure they get the same batch as the sample? The sample could have been from an older batch, no? How can one be sure?

 

I'd like to hear the community thoughts on this. I've experienced very very minor shifts between bottles of Diamine and Private Reserve, but this issue with Noodler's will keep them off my list permanently, which is a shame as I love the colors (and the philosophy), but if one cannot be sure of what one gets, what's the answer?

 

 

Edited by ScottT
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 22
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • ScottT

    7

  • inkstainedruth

    2

  • Flaxmoore

    2

  • Intensity

    2

IME noodlers has a high degree of variability between batches.

 

Other brands, not so much.

Would not even say high, I would say massive.

 

54th Massachusetts was my utility ink in residency. 4 90ml bottles in three years.

 

Last bottle? A bleeding, feathery mess.

Edited by Flaxmoore

Physician- signing your scripts with Skrips!


I'm so tough I vacation in Detroit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, I made a mistake.

 

A few years (yes, years) ago I ordered a sample of Noodler's Red-Black from Goulet.

 

Loved it.

 

Came across an old sample page with the RB on it, and wondered why I never got around to ordering a bottle at the time.

 

This was the mistake. Not ordering it at the time.

 

So I figure, why not now? I read a few current reviews, and there seemed to be a bit of a love-hate thing going on, with some folk seeing what I had seen in the ink, that marvelous duality of red and black, while others stated it was an unappetizing mud brown.

 

Ok, people see things differently, there was even one poster (apologies, cannot remember name) who had a very astute take on it, discussing different ways of viewing things.

 

Anyway, I order the ink. (Not from Goulet's.)

 

You guess it, mud brown. Not cool brown, like Noodler's Walnut, but the blandest brown.

 

Needless to say, I'm quite disappointed. I don't often make ink purchases, and to have one I knew I liked turn out to be a, well, bottle of brown something something, it's annoying.

 

So, the realization I should have ordered a bottle back when I liked the sample aside, two questions (and thanks to those that read this far) remain.

 

1) How much variation can there be between bottles/batches? I could understand small shifts in color, but to completely miss the balance needed and get mud, how did that ever pass QC?

 

2) If I DID buy a bottle a couple of weeks after using up the sample, how can one be sure they get the same batch as the sample? The sample could have been from an older batch, no? How can one be sure?

 

I'd like to hear the community thoughts on this. I've experienced very very minor shifts between bottles of Diamine and Private Reserve, but this issue with Noodler's will keep them off my list permanently, which is a shame as I love the colors (and the philosophy), but if one cannot be sure of what one gets, what's the answer?

 

 

 

There are some inks that vary from batch to batch, particularly Noodler's inks. If you buy from different vendors at different times, there's a reasonable chance your new ink will at least slightly vary from the first time you've tried it. Some inks have more constant composition through the years. But even some staple inks can change slightly based on availability of certain dyes and updated safety guidelines for various substances. Your best bet is to read about each ink you are interested in and see if there are reports of variation from users. Also just doing a google image search is helpful to find consistency or disagreements in ink's appearance.

“I admit it, I'm surprised that fountain pens are a hobby. ... it's a bit like stumbling into a fork convention - when you've used a fork all your life.” 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It really does seem like a gamble and i can understand those that have been on the losing side. There is a huge variation in Noodler's inks, be it swatches on websites, sample vials and full bottles. I have upwards of 20 but I don't require them to be dead on matches for a sample or a swatch I've seen. For my purposes, and this is just everyday personal use and not business, I like the colors I have generally so there is no need to be an exact match. I don't purchase them with that kind of requirement but I can certainly understand those that do. There is a universe full of ink out there and why buy something that is inconsistent and sometimes completely different than what you expected. Of those I have, Noodler's black is the biggest disappointment. I have several of the other varieties and love them but the original Bulletproof Black is one of the few things out there that makes Parker Quink look like a black hole.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This has already been said above but I'd put it like this: "It's not your fault, it's not Goulet's fault, it's Nathan's fault!" It's almost a 50-to-50 chance that if you ever hear (or "see") about a Noodler's ink today, and order it tomorrow (or maybe even today), you'll never know for sure that what you get is what you wanted.

Life is too short to drink bad wine (Goethe)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've previously described Mr. Tardif's quality control practices as ... primitive. I don't see that as something that's likely to change. Other inks have gone through significant and (mostly) unannounced changes, including #41 Brown, Kiowa Pecan, and Black Swan in Australian Roses.

 

As for Red-Black, I got a bottle in 2007, that was smudgy and perhaps concentrated. I wound up topping it up with water till it was quite a bit more full (probably around 4:1 at a guess). It behaved a lot better after that. It also went from a really dark brown to a burgundy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have run into the differences between samples and bottles as well.

Sometimes, though, that's a plus -- I actually like the color of my bottle of 54th Massachusetts BETTER than the sample I tried.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

"It's very nice, but frankly, when I signed that list for a P-51, what I had in mind was a fountain pen."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think in some of his videos Nathan mentions that the variation is a good thing because batches can be verified forensically to show that the signature wasn't written with your ink. I've often wondered whether his variation is an actual goal, but the cynic in me wonders if that's just a way of trying to cover inconsistencies.

 

And then there's Noodler's American Aristocracy: one name, one SKU, but three different colors and you get what you get.

 

I'm not a customer. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think in some of his videos Nathan mentions that the variation is a good thing because batches can be verified forensically to show that the signature wasn't written with your ink.

 

Actual LOL.

 

"A pen that only writes some of the time is a good thing because it prevents you from signing cheques that your bank won't honour..."

 

My estimation of Noodlers Inks just bottomed out.

Vintage. Cursive italic. Iron gall.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I only have a couple of Noodler's inks for a reason.

 

Black

54th Massachusetts

Apache Sunset

Blue Eel

 

I have used more Apache Sunset than any of the others but none in months.

Brad

"Words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind" - Rudyard Kipling
"None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain-pen, or half its cussedness; but we can try." - Mark Twain

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Actual LOL.

 

"A pen that only writes some of the time is a good thing because it prevents you from signing cheques that your bank won't honour..."

 

My estimation of Noodlers Inks just bottomed out.

 

Yeah, that seems utterly mad to me.

 

You wouldn't say it was acceptable to have one tank of gas be 87 octane, the next 91, the next 97 and the last 85 all off the same pump. You wouldn't say it was acceptable to have a pack of pork chops where three are normal and one is solid fat.

 

In the family business, I can date when I put a security door on based on fasteners, the exact layout, things like that. H-hinges? Must be before 1996. LSDA for the locks instead of Kwikset? 1998-2005. Black screws holding the extender? 2010-2012. That's just knowing things vary over time, but that's not saying it's a good thing. It's just what it is.

 

That smells more like desperation.

Physician- signing your scripts with Skrips!


I'm so tough I vacation in Detroit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I got very lucky with my two first Noodler's inks: Air-Corp Blue Black and Walnut. Both had great performance, very non-feathering. All the subsequent inks I've had by Noodler's--samples and full bottles--have been strongly feathering, so I have kept none of them. My bottle of Legal Lapis had crazy nib creep and everything-creep, even seeped behind the piston plunger in a converter in minutes after filling. There are some Noodler's inks I really want, but it's always a gamble whether I'll get the same color I expect and whether the ink will feather.

 

I get that high penetration is important for cellulose binding, but I think the recent amounts of surfactants are a few rungs above excessive. Especially since most people don't buy Noodler's inks to use only on Tomoe River.

“I admit it, I'm surprised that fountain pens are a hobby. ... it's a bit like stumbling into a fork convention - when you've used a fork all your life.” 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Noodlers discussions are always interesting to me.

 

In the past I never really bought Noodler's inks. Some of the horror stories circulating the internet for a while about them scared me off, as did the volumes I needed to buy(the price gap wasn't as strong on name-brand inks then-I can remember Waterman, Pelikan, etc all being right at $10/bottle). Noodler's was still the best volume/dollar value around, but it wasn't AS dramatic then. For a long time the only thing I had was Baystate Blue(one of the most notorious) and I've enjoyed using it even though once I put it in a pen I always considered that a BSB pen forever. The color is like nothing else, though.

 

More recently, as prices have gone up of all the other brands and Noodler's has stayed there, they've started looking a lot more attractive to me. I've actually not bought samples of them, since I've already committed a decent part of the cost of a bottle if I like the sample after I've bought it. I know that's weird logic, but I also like having ink bottles and a lot of variety on my desk :) . I've been ordering from Goulet a lot lately, and it's easy to tack a few interesting Noodler's colors on to "pad" an order. I go by swabs a lot, which I know aren't necessarily accurate but give me some idea of what to expect.

 

Black-Red is a recently introduced one to mine line-up. To me it's a really subtle ink, but one I've enjoyed using. With only one bottle, I can't notice batch-to-batch so wel. What I have seen, though, is that it seems to just kind of belch out and make a muddy brown in something like a medium or broad Pelikan nib. In a lot of other applications, though, I definitely see the subtle shading/color change that the swabs led me to expect. Suprisingly enough, though, it's been in my EF VP for a little while now, and I do see the shading.

 

All the ones I've tried, though, with the possible exception of X-Feather(which I haven't yet tried), have been giving me fits with the crummy office paper I have now. In particular, with online grading(which kills me), but I still usually make up charts/spreadsheets to use, and sometimes I end up with tiny boxes. An EF nib is great for that, but not if it feathers all over. That's partially why I bought the X-feather, but I don't like blacks in general.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

There are some inks that vary from batch to batch, particularly Noodler's inks. If you buy from different vendors at different times, there's a reasonable chance your new ink will at least slightly vary from the first time you've tried it. Some inks have more constant composition through the years. But even some staple inks can change slightly based on availability of certain dyes and updated safety guidelines for various substances. Your best bet is to read about each ink you are interested in and see if there are reports of variation from users. Also just doing a google image search is helpful to find consistency or disagreements in ink's appearance.

My biggest error was not doing image searches, as the discussions I read suggested variance in visual perception as one of the big reasons some saw it as awesome and others mud. Lesson quite solidly learned.

 

Great advice, thanks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've previously described Mr. Tardif's quality control practices as ... primitive. I don't see that as something that's likely to change. Other inks have gone through significant and (mostly) unannounced changes, including #41 Brown, Kiowa Pecan, and Black Swan in Australian Roses.

 

As for Red-Black, I got a bottle in 2007, that was smudgy and perhaps concentrated. I wound up topping it up with water till it was quite a bit more full (probably around 4:1 at a guess). It behaved a lot better after that. It also went from a really dark brown to a burgundy.

I'll certainly play around a bit on small samples with water, as currently it is good for nothing. Perhaps I'll get a pleasant surprise. And I would agree with your description of the "quality control".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Noodlers discussions are always interesting to me.

 

For a long time the only thing I had was Baystate Blue(one of the most notorious) and I've enjoyed using it even though once I put it in a pen I always considered that a BSB pen forever. The color is like nothing else, though.

 

All the ones I've tried, though, with the possible exception of X-Feather(which I haven't yet tried), have been giving me fits with the crummy office paper I have now. In particular, with online grading(which kills me), but I still usually make up charts/spreadsheets to use, and sometimes I end up with tiny boxes. An EF nib is great for that, but not if it feathers all over. That's partially why I bought the X-feather, but I don't like blacks in general.

If you shop around, I find Diamine to be quite comparable in price. I enjoy reds and dark reds, so Red Dragon and Oxblood are favorites, with Majestic Blue being the favorite overall.

 

Funnily enough, when I found the sample page with Noodler's Red-Black on it, I noticed I had also tested BSB, and since the sample was made, the BSB, well, it didn't feather, precisely, but it is like you are viewing it through a soft lens. If there's any interest, I'll dig it out and take a pic. It was in a Preppy and written on Triomphe paper.

 

Thanks to everyone for their input, I enjoyed reading about everyone's experiences.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The main difference between samples and bottles is that bottles contain much more ink :D

Add lightness and simplicate.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had a similar experience with that same ink, got a free sample with some ink order, absolutely loved the "duality of the red and black", as you say. Finally ordered a bottle, only to be disappointed. I was lucky in that I didn't get a muddy brown, mine was just too red. Not a bad color actually but not the color I wanted.

It's hard work to tell which is Old Harry when everybody's got boots on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Funnily enough, when I found the sample page with Noodler's Red-Black on it, I noticed I had also tested BSB, and since the sample was made, the BSB, well, it didn't feather, precisely, but it is like you are viewing it through a soft lens.

 

My bottle of BSB feathers like crazy. At this point, I only use it in a Noodler's Charlie eyedropper (so I mostly don't care if it stains, but also because I can eyeball diluting it about 20% with distilled water. And honestly, I'm not all that enamored of the color -- it's too purple leaning a blue for my taste (Liberty's Elysium, which is a Goulet Pens Noodler's exclusive) is a much nicer color.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

"It's very nice, but frankly, when I signed that list for a P-51, what I had in mind was a fountain pen."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Most Contributions

    1. amberleadavis
      amberleadavis
      43844
    2. PAKMAN
      PAKMAN
      33494
    3. Ghost Plane
      Ghost Plane
      28220
    4. inkstainedruth
      inkstainedruth
      26624
    5. jar
      jar
      26101
  • Upcoming Events

  • Blog Comments

    • Shanghai Knife Dude
      I have the Sailor Naginata and some fancy blade nibs coming after 2022 by a number of new workshop from China.  With all my respect, IMHO, they are all (bleep) in doing chinese characters.  Go use a bush, or at least a bush pen. 
    • A Smug Dill
      It is the reason why I'm so keen on the idea of a personal library — of pens, nibs, inks, paper products, etc. — and spent so much money, as well as time and effort, to “build” it for myself (because I can't simply remember everything, especially as I'm getting older fast) and my wife, so that we can “know”; and, instead of just disposing of what displeased us, or even just not good enough to be “given the time of day” against competition from >500 other pens and >500 other inks for our at
    • adamselene
      Agreed.  And I think it’s good to be aware of this early on and think about at the point of buying rather than rationalizing a purchase..
    • A Smug Dill
      Alas, one cannot know “good” without some idea of “bad” against which to contrast; and, as one of my former bosses (back when I was in my twenties) used to say, “on the scale of good to bad…”, it's a spectrum, not a dichotomy. Whereas subjectively acceptable (or tolerable) and unacceptable may well be a dichotomy to someone, and finding whether the threshold or cusp between them lies takes experiencing many degrees of less-than-ideal, especially if the decision is somehow influenced by factors o
    • adamselene
      I got my first real fountain pen on my 60th birthday and many hundreds of pens later I’ve often thought of what I should’ve known in the beginning. I have many pens, the majority of which have some objectionable feature. If they are too delicate, or can’t be posted, or they are too precious to face losing , still they are users, but only in very limited environments..  I have a big disliking for pens that have the cap jump into the air and fly off. I object to Pens that dry out, or leave blobs o
  • Chatbox

    You don't have permission to chat.
    Load More
  • Files






×
×
  • Create New...