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Definition Of “Restored” - Concensus?


VacNut

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...or read the information provided on the business' website. While I agree that some sellers definition of restored is rather elastic, neither is your assertion the definition generally accepted in the pen community. Indeed, the automatic replacement, cleaning, plating and all of that goes against what many if not most of my clients want. There are some that argue that even replacing a sac lowers the value of a pen.

 

And pricing or cost IS relevant to the discussion. Ask any professional pen mechanic who's been in the business for a while. I had a client balk at what I charge to restore a Vacumatic, wanting only the diaphragm replaced, which I don't do.... until he watched me restore his pen. His comment when I was done, was that I earn every bit that I charge. I quit doing "sac only" repairs over a decade ago because they are inadequate.

 

To correct you on a point, Consumer Legislation takes precedence over the terms and conditions on a website. A buyer's rights under Law can not be altered by terms and conditions.

 

The word restore relates to a measurable state, it is not an opinion as to condition but a matter of fact. If a pen is described as Restored that means that it must have been taken back to like new condition.

 

Other definitions are just a matter of opinion, terms such as Superb, Desirable, Sought After, Poor, Rough, Average condition, are all difficult for the buyer and Courts to interpret.

 

Other terms are finite, such as unmarked, new and unused, working, perfect. All these terms are defined in Law and are measurable, not a matter of opinion. If you sell a pen as unmarked when what you actually mean is that it has, for example, minor surface marks commensurate with an old pen then the buyer has every right to ask for their money back, if you fail to pay up then a buyer can show the marks as evidence to a Court and ask the Court to make the decision that the pen has been badly described.

 

Pricing is of no consequence to the discussion on the meaning of a word.

 

I doubt very much that a Court would be swayed in its decision based on what the seller has paid, it is not up to the Court to decide on market pricing or the cost of a repairers time, the key point is to describe the pen accurately and understand that the description becomes the basis of the contract between seller and buyer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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If a pen is described as Restored that means that it must have been taken back to like new condition.

 

A link to the relevant clause in the legislation (UK/EU/US) would probably be helpful at this point.

 

Similarly, the definition of "restore" does not, at least in the OED, mean "like new". There are a number of different meanings of the word, almost all of them (as is the case with English) open to intepretation.

 

This was the point I made originally: restore means different things to different people.

Vintage. Cursive italic. Iron gall.

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A link to the relevant clause in the legislation (UK/EU/US) would probably be helpful at this point.

 

Similarly, the definition of "restore" does not, at least in the OED, mean "like new". There are a number of different meanings of the word, almost all of them (as is the case with English) open to intepretation.

 

This was the point I made originally: restore means different things to different people.

 

A simple search of Consumer Protection Law for the US or the UK will produce what you need to know, with all due respect, I am sure you do not need to be spoon fed.

 

 

 

A key element of both legislations is that goods must be as described.

 

The way that goods are described is therefore paramount and how the consumer, and ultimately the Courts, may interpret that description.

 

I am not aware of Court cases specifically on pens but I would not be surprised if there are cases involving antiques, dictionary definitions for the restoration of antiques suggest that the item is returned to 'like new' condition.

 

I am aware of two cases where legal proceedings were started against a pen repairer, one my own, the other is reported.

 

My own case involved a Vacumatic which was described as in excellent condition and fully restored. The pen arrived and looked to be in a well used state with surface scratches and a filler that was ineffective. The nib was worn out. All manor of excuses were given by the seller but they refused a refund, until soilicitors were involved.

 

Another reported case was a pen was described as having a fully restored filling system. When the pen arrived it was in a poor state, the feed was full of crud, pen was filthy, ink inside the cap. The seller refused a refund saying that they had replaced the sac and J bar but had given no promises about the rest of the pen. The buyer took to social media to give a heads up to other pen buyers.

 

 

 

However, I agree with you Silverlifter, there are different interpretations of what the word Restored means to the population, to me it means restored to like new, to others it may mean not much more than working.

 

I think that the Courts would look for a dictionary definition or past case law in making a decision and one definition that I keep seeing in respect of restoration is the return to as new or like new condition.

 

I have been looking at pen websites to see how sellers are describing pens, there is one that uses the words fully restored quite liberally but also lists flaws in the description.

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However, I agree with you Silverlifter, there are different interpretations of what the word Restored means to the population, to me it means restored to like new, to others it may mean not much more than working.

 

This is why I made the point about the importance of describing, exactly, what constitutes the "restoration" process. This removes almost all ambiguity around the word itself, and provides confidence for both buyer and seller that they have as shared an understanding as is possible.

Vintage. Cursive italic. Iron gall.

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This is why I made the point about the importance of describing, exactly, what constitutes the "restoration" process. This removes almost all ambiguity around the word itself, and provides confidence for both buyer and seller that they have as shared an understanding as is possible.

 

 

Also see post 3

 

Not that the world is going to change.

Edited by Beechwood
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From Gerry Berg

 

It is clear from the discussion here that there as many ideas of restoration as there are consumers of restorations. Since there are as yet no fixed definitions (and law will not provide them), the best thing for a potential customer to do is to tell the pen mechanic what you expect and/or to ask him what he does. I restore ONLY Sheaffer plunger-fillers and supply potential customers with a general description of what the restoration entails. I leave out a great deal. Of course, if anyone asks for further details I will gladly supply them, and, as often as not, alter my work to meet his expectations. Do we really need a systematic determination of what the word "restore" means? I think not.

 

By the way, it might be useful to consider a distinction made among rare book collectors who employ skilled craftsmen to restore old books. Book restorers should repair a volume's problems but should avoid at all costs hiding the repair in order to make the book look "new". Making it look new is considered a form of dishonesty. Similar standards exist among firearms collectors and furniture collectors who despair to find an ancient devalued by the removing ("cleaning") of its original (and often ugly!) patina.

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I have been looking at how pen sellers describe their pens for sale.

 

Here is an example:

 

This pen is a really nice example of the No.388 and was produced around 1940. It is finished in Black with Gold filled trim to the clip and cap rings.

 

The imprint is clear and legible and the pen is in very good overall condition with only very minor wear marks.

 

The gold plate to the cap rings, lever and clip is in excellent order with only very minor wear at the edges.

 

The pen has a superb Medium Nib which writes very smoothly. It has been fully restored and is ready to write.

 

I read this ad as offering a pen with wear marks to the pen in addition to wear at the edges of the plating, despite this wear the pen is described as restored, in fact fully restored although I am not entirely sure of the difference in the two terms.

 

Note that there is no description of what work has been done to the pen in this act of restoration. The seller has graded the pen as Grade A, despite the wear and tear

 

In my opinion, this ad is not that unusual and represents the need for clarification in terms of what restored actually means, being what is being offered and to what the buyer might expect, but.... that is not going to be achieved. It seems to me that some pen sellers have a different interpretation of the word than some pen buyers.

 

I am not sure that we have made any progress at all in this discussion from the earliest of posts, there is no concensus. I remain of the view that sellers of pens need to consider the accuracy of their descriptions under Consumer Law and if they use the word Restore then to be prepared to back that up. as always people confuse their opinions with facts and will do whaever they wish, and good luck to them.

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Beechwood, you've made your position abundantly clear. About half of the last 10 posts have been yours.

 

Why don't we give some other folks a chance to chime in.

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Good point Ron Z.

"You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself"

Edited by Estycollector

"Respect science, respect nature, respect all people (s),"

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fpn_1598992227__dyson_-_1.jpg

 

My mother's Dyson* has returned from its service.

The literature which accompanied its return uses the word we are seeking to define (photo attached).

 

I have to say, looking at it, I thought they'd simply sent her a new machine.

(Maybe they did? It could be more economical for them to do so?)

 

I don't think I have a blanket definition of the word, myself.

I've usually thought of it as being part of a longer description - eg, restored to working order, restored to showroom condition, lightly restored, etc.

 

* a brand of vacuum cleaner

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To me, Restoration means restoring to as new condition, top to toe.

 

One would not need condition descriptors if that were the accepted meaning. I would go along with the suggestion that restored means "in working order." Then a few words, like "excellent restored condition" or "good restored condition" say a great deal.

Edited by Robert111
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Well, that was odd. :yikes:

 

 

Not so much, looks like people don't like to be corrected or have their opinions challenged, when they do they tell people to shut up.

 

Eckiethump clearly saw a breach of the Rules from FPN

 

  • Politeness and civility to others is expected from all members,

 

  • Discussion of each others' skill or ability to debate, and personal criticisms is not allowed and will be removed. Members discuss a subject, not the skills in discussing such a subject.

 

Not good for a Moderator to blank someone because they don't share his opinion.

 

How many minutes do you think these posts will last?

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I doubt @Eckiethump assumptions about a member's voting practices meets those two points either. I mean, if you're going to cry foul, don't commit a foul.

"Respect science, respect nature, respect all people (s),"

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I am not trying to get into the debate, but I am reporting that the initial posts in this thread did cause me to think about a listing that I currently have on ebay. I had used the word "restored" in my listing and realized, after reading this thread, that it was at best ambiguous and perhaps even misleading. I immediately edited the listing, removing that word and instead using descriptive phrases to hopefully inform anyone reading it as to the actual condition of the pen/pencil and what was done, and by whom it was done, to achieve this condition.

 

I for one will be much more careful in the future when I describe a pen, or anything else for that matter, for sale.

The Moonwalk Pen - honoring Apollo lunar landings
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Perhaps, as has been suggested, I should have put on my "moderators hat" before the post OK, it's on now.

 

Note that though I may disagree with the posts in question, and direction of the discussion, I left them standing, and left the thread open out of respect for the people writing. My opinions did not come into play, but the tone of the posts in question did, and my interest was in getting the person in question to step back for a bit, not shut up. He would have been, and is, welcome to post again in this thread after a bit of a time out if he were to moderate his tone, which is really what I was asking for. My apology to Beechwood for not taking it back channel first. I have edited my post.

 

.

I'm going to leave this thread open, because while I have my opinion, and disagree quite strongly with Beechwood's assertions, it's not a bad discussion to have. But let's keep it on topic please.

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Just noticed an offering for an "authentic" Parker. I mean, I have a few, but not sure any are "authentic".

"Respect science, respect nature, respect all people (s),"

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Okay, I'm now wondering what I missed here :o (I wasn't around for a couple of days because of traveling, and then having to deal with unpacking and laundry and dealing with all the spam phone calls we got while we were gone -- including TWO robocalls on the answering machine from the "Your car warranty is about to expire" people :angry:) and now trying to play catchup on posts.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

"It's very nice, but frankly, when I signed that list for a P-51, what I had in mind was a fountain pen."

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