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Definition Of “Restored” - Concensus?


VacNut

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Wen consensus is reached on “restored” we should move on to “over restored” as the next discussion point.

 

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I was talking about restoration with a guy who had driven a 1930s Rolls Royce into the pub car park. He said that the original high tension cables to the spark plugs would have rotted to be actively dangerous to keep in a working car. A common fix? Use modern HT cable and feed it through the original fabric cable cover. Looks like the original but works safely.

 

My eqivalent is opening an Esterbrook and finding a rock-hard sac with "Esterbrook" on it. Do I just reassemble it as non-working or replace the sac and reassemble to give a working but unoriginal pen but whose unoriginality is only revealed when it's taken apart?

 

And, in each case, what does 'restored' mean???

Edited by PDW
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I was talking about restoration with a guy who had driven a 1930s Rolls Royce into the pub car park. He said that the original high tension cables to the spark plugs would have rotted to be actively dangerous to keep in a working car. A common fix? Use modern HT cable and feed it through the original fabric cable cover. Looks like the original but works safely.

 

My eqivalent is opening an Esterbrook and finding a rock-hard sac with "Esterbrook" on it. Do I just reassemble it as non-working or replace the sac and reassemble to give a working but unoriginal pen but whose unoriginality is only revealed when it's taken apart?

 

And, in each case, what does 'restored' mean???

Having several Esterbrook "restorations" under my belt and not a seller, I am perfectly content with an aftermarket sac and j bar replacement if that means I can now use the pen.

 

I did find a plaible original sac in an Esterbrook Deluxe from the mid '50's and have decided to leave it as found and not in use currently.

 

I think your RR analogy is fitting. Original and safe wins the day for me. I have a '64 Massey Ferguson tractor for gentleman's farm use with an altenator replacing the origional generator. I opted not to replace the orginional oil filter mechanism with a screw on type for two reasons, the original has a cast iron cover which protects the engine in case I send a stone or other object flying. and the original just looks correct to my eyes.

"Respect science, respect nature, respect all people (s),"

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This is not just relevant to restoration: People focus on different areas of a pen and their focus dictates what is acceptable - 1. general aesthetics, 2. mechanical functionality and 3. nib performance. For me, anything outside the normal range of what's expected of a pen with certain age and conditions is not acceptable. For example, a vintage safety pen can be prone to blobbing, a flaw of such design. But if the pen is blobbing all the time, it's not acceptable even for a safety pen. In general, a restored pen should look good, work well and write well, all within their inherited limits. But a pen that looks good, works well and writes well is not necessarily restored and should not be advised as such.

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Not a comprehensive answer, but broadly speaking these are my comments below.

 

It should be noted I seldom involve myself in the selling of pens, my main business being pen repair.

 

Serviced- Consumable parts sacs and corks etc, replaced with new, all parts feeds, nibs and section deep cleaned. Nib tuned for flow and writing experience to customers’ requirements. Pen polished conservatively, for cosmetically improved appearance

 

Restored-Parts returned to as new condition replacing worn parts such as barrel and cap, clips, levers too as new condition with proprietary parts

 

Repaired- Where a part is broken, part being mostly mechanically, repaired back to usage, with adhesive and/or by mechanical means, nib cracks gold solder welded. Alternative to replace with suitable broken part, lever etc.

 

There are areas of contention amongst some, I prefer using Viton “O” rings for Onoto barrel end piston seals. I also prefer them for piston fill pens. I always use new cork seals when customer requests and always for 1950’s Montblanc piston fill pens

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More often than not, 'Restored' means to most folks, back in working condition (i.e. will take up ink without leaking and will write). Maybe a light polish.

+1

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I can see restoring a sac pen with an original sac if the sac is PVC or other synthetic. Where the original sac is latex I worry about someone getting a pen like new old Esterbrooks I have, never inked and with original latex sacs probably about sixty years old now, and the future owners not realizing I had left the pens original and then inking the pens. I am more comfortable with the pens I resacked with PVC sacks or silicone sacs. I have visions of some poor person ruining a shirt or other clothing item. I think I might carry this "original parts" idea too far. Really, who the H cares about an Esterbrook M2 being all original? Few people care about Esterbrook M2s at all anyway. Each pen is a special case, with age and rarity, and general regard for that model pen having some influence.

Edited by pajaro

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--Sign in a bar and grill, Ormond Beach, Florida, 1960.

 

 

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+1

 

- 1 !!

 

This reinforces the need for agreement between the parties on terminolgy, taking the pen to working condition and a light polish is no more than Servicing.

 

One UK pen seller stretches the limit by saying 'filing system has been restored' I suspect that they really mean the filling system is in working order.

 

To me, Restoration means restoring to as new condition, top to toe.

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- 1 !!

 

This reinforces the need for agreement between the parties on terminolgy, taking the pen to working condition and a light polish is no more than Servicing.

 

One UK pen seller stretches the limit by saying 'filing system has been restored' I suspect that they really mean the filling system is in working order.

 

To me, Restoration means restoring to as new condition, top to toe.

 

So, what most "restorers" do is reconditioning? I think all these terms vary in use. I would read someone's statement of what they will do carefully.

"Don't hurry, don't worry. It's better to be late at the Golden Gate than to arrive in Hell on time."
--Sign in a bar and grill, Ormond Beach, Florida, 1960.

 

 

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To me, Restoration means restoring to as new condition, top to toe.

 

I think that you'll find that most of the pen mechanics would not agree. If that were the case, our prices would have to be a heck of a lot more than they are now, and more than most people would want to pay. Replace cap bands, clips, levers that are worn? Replace nibs? Even replating is expensive because of the time needed and the cost of materials. A good plating solution (i.e. not a kit on Ebay but professional) is not cheap, especially for rhodium.

 

By the way, most professional pen mechanics list what they do on their restoration services page, with individual items outlined... if anyone takes time to read it.

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Actually, I believe some "restorers" do not even complete a reconditioning, which would bring a pen back into functional service as new, with as appropriate a new sack, or other analogous parts and adjustment and reasonable tuning, let alone complete a restoration.

 

I suspect some "restorers" simply service a pen, completing the minimum service needed to get a pen writing and out the door.

 

I think of an analogie being work needed on an automobile to allow it to be sold in some places so that it will stop (brakes must be functional) and polution production must not be too diferent from origonal specifications (tail pipe emission test must be passed). Anything else is not a factor.

 

Calling an automobile restored simply because it had the minimum brake work and emission control work done does not make it restored, or reconditioned. It makes it serviced in the areas that it was services, and possibly for a recently made automobile it might not even need serviced to pass the braking and emission rules. In that case it would be simply advertised as passing the required inspections.

 

The analogie with that would be a pen that is noted as filling with ink, not leaking and able to write, possibly advertised with a writing sample, with no indication of anything restored. If a part was related indicating that. And, if more than normal cleaning and polishing is done, then it could be mentioned as having a detailed cleaning and what was cleaned and possibly how (disassembly, ultrasonic cleaning, etc.).

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I think that you'll find that most of the pen mechanics would not agree. If that were the case, our prices would have to be a heck of a lot more than they are now, and more than most people would want to pay. Replace cap bands, clips, levers that are worn? Replace nibs? Even replating is expensive because of the time needed and the cost of materials. A good plating solution (i.e. not a kit on Ebay but professional) is not cheap, especially for rhodium.

 

 

This reinforces my point that any buyer needs to ask questions about the terminology used in any offer for sale.

 

For example, I know one ebay seller who provides photographic evidence that the pen has been stripped, checked, renovated as ncessessary and put back together, his pens fetch higher than average prices, 100% feedback and highly regarded.

 

I know another pen seller who uses phrases such as 'filling system has been restored' , which could mean as little as a new sac, and I have seen the acrimonious disputes that have ensued.

 

You have said that most pen mechanics would not agree although Eckiethump has provided a definition of restored which I think is spot on, restored means, to some people at least, restored to as new condition.

 

In just the same way as when there is definition of a restored car, antique china or furniture it should mean, to me, restored to as new condition. I would expect more of a restored car than a car which simply works.

 

You are the first to raise the point on pricing, price is not relevant to this discussion; we are talking about trying to reach a concensus on what is expected of a restored pen, again I would say that Eric Wilson's definition is accurate in my understanding of the English language, a restored object is defined as a repaired or renovated item so as to return it to its original condition.

 

If you describe a pen for sale as restored which has not been returned it to its original condition then you may risk customer dissatisfaction and an action under Consumer Law, both in the UK and the US.

 

Describe the pen as serviced, for example, all you need provide is a pen in good working condition.

 

I think it is clear from the different points of view is that there can easily be a mismatch in the what is meant by the seller and what is understood by the buyer. This mismatch is controlled under Consumer Legislation which means that all descriptions must be accurate and not misleading. If you describe pens inaccurately, the buyer may have a claim against you for breach of contract.

 

Because there is a dictionary definition of the word Restore iit is therefore a term by which you may be judged, in my opinion it is better that a pen seller does not use the word Restore at all (unless the pen has actually been restored) but instead takes the safer and better approach of describing the work that has been done and, of course, any defects.

 

There may never be a concensus on here as to what is meant by the word restore, we may instead chose to look for a legal/dictionary definition which refers to like new condtion.

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Wen consensus is reached on “restored” we should move on to “over restored” as the next discussion point.

 

 

Indeed! And this follow up discussion should include the growing penchant of users to "clean" their vintage pens daily, weekly, monthly.

 

The endless "ultrasonicfication" and disassembly of pens, particularly vintage pens, is worth discussing too. These materials weren't designed for such treatments.

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These are very good points!! What makes collecting/using vintage pens interesting is in part because one needs to gain enough knowledge to know what is excessive and what is inadequate.

 

 

Indeed! And this follow up discussion should include the growing penchant of users to "clean" their vintage pens daily, weekly, monthly.

 

The endless "ultrasonicfication" and disassembly of pens, particularly vintage pens, is worth discussing too. These materials weren't designed for such treatments.

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we may instead chose to look for a legal/dictionary definition which refers to like new condition.

 

...or read the information provided on the business' website. While I agree that some sellers definition of restored is rather elastic, neither is your assertion the definition generally accepted in the pen community. Indeed, the automatic replacement, cleaning, plating and all of that goes against what many if not most of my clients want. There are some that argue that even replacing a sac lowers the value of a pen.

 

And pricing or cost IS relevant to the discussion. Ask any professional pen mechanic who's been in the business for a while. I had a client balk at what I charge to restore a Vacumatic, wanting only the diaphragm replaced, which I don't do.... until he watched me restore his pen. His comment when I was done, was that I earn every bit that I charge. I quit doing "sac only" repairs over a decade ago because they are inadequate.

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So, a pen mechanic is going to sell an Esterbrook J model for $40-60 whereas I can get one used and replace the parts and clean for less than $20. Where I think the pen mechanics hold the most value is the skill and tools to restore a snorkle or vacumatic Parker. While I am perfectly satisfied with my Esterbrook efforts, I gladly pay someone like @ronz to get my Sheaffer or Parker up and running again.

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There is another hobby which has many smilarities to Fountain Pens, Mechanical Watches.

 

There is a significant difference between what is done and what is charged for the cleaning of, adjustment and calibration of, repairing of and partial to full restoration of vintage mechanical watches.

 

A full restoration may well exceed the actual value of a given watch depending on the amount of work.

 

If that was way things were done in regard to Fountain Pens, I suspect there would be few full restorations for some pens, but I also suspect that those same pens today when "restored" do not receive a full restoration.

 

And so, we are left with what is possibly a word that as used without additional descriptors, "restored", which is inaccurate.

 

Possibly "restored" was origonally used by some with qualifiers, such as part of "filling mechanism restored to function" or "pen functionally but not cosmetically restored" or "light restoration, patina left intact" or in some other way and people stopped using the other words based on their assumption that "everyone", actually meaning only they have done restoration work for, knows what they mean by "restored".

 

I understand the idea of using the term "restored" as a short term to describe ones typical restoration work, especially when one describes it, but I still believe it is a bit confusing.

 

It reminds me of conversation I have had in which I have needed to remind someone that no, I don't know what they mean and their repeating themselves doesn't clarify it. This typically happens when people use cuss words in place of other words and almost every other word is a cuss word and typically the same cuss word. I personally prefer precision and only sporadically use that cuss word, alternating using others and then with descriptors such as who, what, when and how.

 

I am afraid "restored" has become our equivelant of that cuss word, fairly meaningless because of its overuse and lack of complimentary descriptors.

Edited by Parker51
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