Definition Of “Restored” - Concensus?

[VacNut]

I browse through pen sites and the Bay looking for pens. Most pen sites and some auction sites lists the pens as “Restored”. Is there a common consensus on how this term is defined? Could this imply that there are replacement parts on the pen, or that the pen has gone through major repairs ( i.e replating of trim, crack repair, fusing of segmented barrels, re-coloring or dyeing of parts (for BHR pens)...A Frankenstein pen?). The more reputable sellers will honestly describe the condition of the pen and gladly respond to questions, but does this mean the seller has to ask these types of questions on every pen - assuming they know what to ask? I am clear when the seller lists the pen as functional without further describing the condition of the pen. In such cases it is buyer beware.

With so much content on the net, one is no longer able to physically examine the pens. Some of these pens have pen so highly polished and “restored” that it is impossible to identify their condition.

 

What are people’s opinion and/or experience with this term?

[silverlifter]

Is there a common consensus on how this term is defined?

 

No. It could mean anything from a light polish to replacement of all moving/perishable parts.

 

I tend only to trust those sellers that actually describe exactly what they have done to the pen to restore it. For example:

 

I have ultrasonically cleaned the NIB, feed, section, and barrel. Replaced the old packing unit with new, added a new plunger gasket, and new stainless plunger rod. Hand polished the Gold Filled Clip, Cap Banding, and 14K Gold 2-Tone NIB. I also cleaned, buffed, and polished, the barrel, cap, and blind cap to bring back the vibrancy and to protect the celluloid of the fountain pen.

 

[Beechwood]

You really need to ask a question or two before you rely on the idea that the buyer and seller have the same definition of restored.

 

My definition means, back to new, others (usually sellers unsurprisingly) think restored means back to working condition

Edited August 28, 2020 by Beechwood

[FountainNewbie]

I think would be pretty difficult to reach a consensus. Even if all parts are cleaned and working perfect.

 

For example, sometimes I ask myself the question how much polish is 'enough' to reach 'restored' status. Or also, pens without clips re-plated.

 

It depends on the buyer, I would say for most people 'restored' is that it looks cleaned and working. For high-end collectors would be something that looks like NOS. Some sellers make the distinction between 'SERVICED' and 'RESTORED', which I think is more appropriate.

[Parker51]

I agree, the term restored is a very broad term.

 

Borrowing from other hobbies for more definitive terms there could be a consensus around certain types of restoration.

 

Light Restoration: pen is cleaned in a non-damaging way so as to remove dirt, adhesives and other material which substantly interfere with the use and enjoyment of said pen and parts are replaced as appropriate to bring pen into function with origonal parts, new old stock, or salvaged, except for bladders, packing material, diaphragms, etc. as applies, which may be replaced with new alternative material. Any repairs of damage which required the use of adhesive or any other simialer materials is noted as well as the possible use of new materials for what typicall would be origonal parts.

 

Rebuilt: if pen is substantial made of salvaged non origonal parts this would be noted and pen would not be considered restored, but rebuilt.

 

Amateur Restoration: same as light restoration, but may additionally include full disassembly, use of ultrasonic cleaning device and appropriate chemicals, polishing, and nib adjustment. All techniques and activities listed in description.

 

Professional Restoration: same as amateur, but done by experianced person who does this on a daily basis for pay and is widely recognized for the competancy of their work. Warranty if in fact noted as well as person who did it and when they did it.

 

Extensive Professinal Restoration: same as Professional Restoration, plus named and identified techniques used possibly including replating, retiring, dyeing, etc.

 

These are my ideas, taken from my experiance in other hobbies.

 

One other one that I might add, based on my wife's interests and likes is: all origonal, appropriate age patina and wear, lightly cleaned and polished, fully functional. I am not including it under repair description as technically it isn't a repair, but it is an appropriate description for some pens such as some Parker 51s due to the nature of their filling systems typicall being intact. And, it could be an appropriate description for a lot of cartridge fill pens. I hav leaned th hard way that one can't assum they work as designed, despite their appearances and as they age we shouldn't assume they will work. But the question of repairs for cartridge filled pens is another subject.

[PAKMAN]

More often than not, 'Restored' means to most folks, back in working condition (i.e. will take up ink without leaking and will write). Maybe a light polish.

[VacNut]

After reading through the comments, I am beginning to see more of the nuances of “restoration”. Although it may not sound attractive, the term “Rebuilt” could apply to pens that are functional, but required more significant work. Maybe words like “Re-furnished” and “Re-conditioned” are better descriptors. IMHO I don’t think anyone can return a pen to it’s previous state.

[Beechwood]

More often than not, 'Restored' means to most folks, back in working condition (i.e. will take up ink without leaking and will write). Maybe a light polish.

 

 

I am surprised Perry, I may need to adjust my thinking. To me Restored means restored to as new condition.

 

I have had a couple of cars restored for example and if the restorers had just made the engines work and polished the paint then my expectations would not have been met.

 

There are some pens that I send out to be returned to working order, it would be a nice surprise but I don't expect the pen to come back in a restored condition.

 

If I see a pen advertised as Restored I would expect the pen to work and look like it was when newly made.

 

eta, re VacNut. There is at least one UK pen restorer who strips the pen completely and restores the pen to as new. They advertise on ebay with full photographic evidence, the pens fetch top money.

Edited August 28, 2020 by Beechwood

[Parker51]

I was in part taking my cues from automobile collecting and from furniture collecting.

In both the idea of bringing something back to as close to its origonal condition as possible through the use of new parts and refinishing can actually reduce the items value.

In pen collecting I see a mix of opinions.

Some people want a pen to have all origonal parts, except for those which are required to be replaced such as sacks, diaphragms, gaskets, etc.

Some people don't care and are more interested in appearence, or performance.

 

I had a decision to make regarding a Parker 51 Vacumatic Demonstrator. The hood was heavily damaged and the diaphragm needed replaced. I could not locate a vintage replacement hood. I was able to locate one made by a certain fantasy Parker 51 maker. What to do?

 

I decided to part with the pen as it was, unusable and unrestored. The person who got it from me indicated they were planning on restoring it using a new hood, one made by that fantasy pen maker, which they had.

 

I knew then that if I had done as they planned it would bother me, but I don't know why.

 

Today I lwould get the compatible non-OEM part and have the pen professionally restored.

 

I think some of us have this conflict as well when it comes to restoration, how much is right and what parts are right for the restoration. Add to this the situation of Fantasy pens, some made with "essential" vintage metal/ mechanical parts that have been refurbished and with new resin and sold for well above the cost of a restored origonal model of that pen.

 

And then, there are the purpose built "Frankenpens" that are new pens with vintage nibs, or nib units. I have a couple of the, and find they write quite well and make sense to me as they use parts which are not needed for restoration and have been used to create a fine pen, something I value much more than the alternative, the nibs being scrapped as there are for some model pens for which there are many more nibs than pens which will ever need replacement nibs, especially certain models which have very fragile resin.

[pajaro]

If you use original equipment parts that are from the appropriate period of manufacture, should this bother anybody?

 

Then, if you use an original equipment part of different period of manufacture, or a replacement part, such as the parts made by Ariel Kullock, that should be footnoted if you care about keeping something "correct." Keeping the original replaced part was something I used to do in some cases.

[3rdlakerobert]

I estimate that I've restored and sold on eBay 400 to 500 Sheaffer Snorkels over the last 4 to 5 years. My postings always begin, "Restored Sheaffer . . . " and under the heading Condition I say in the first sentence, "This Sheaffer Snorkel Sentinel (or Valiant, Admiral, etc.) is in excellent (or very good, good, etc.) restored condition."

 

I go on in all my postings to list the steps in my restoration process and the most important facts about my offer to sell the pen:

 

All restorations include

• disassembly, cleaning,

• replacement of all seals and the sac,

• smoothing and adjusting the nib,

• refinishing the plastic and gold-filled surfaces,

• filling the pen with ink (not just dipping) and producing multiple writing samples over 2 days (like the one in the photo).

• I guarantee the pens I restore write smoothly and fill as designed.

• Payment is expected within 3 days.

• $3.95 includes first-class postage and insurance. Shipping to US addresses only.

 

Buyers unfamiliar with my work have clear photos and my 100% Positive Feedback rating. Actual comments from sellers are available when a prospective buyer clicks on my seller name, "3rdlake robert."

 

I have limited my work to Sheaffer Snorkels for a number of reasons:

• Snorkels are interesting and challenging to a restorer.
• Snorkels have become popular collectibles.
• Although there are a number of models, most parts are interchangeable and easily available.
• The "wear parts" (seals, sacs, etc.) are inexpensive and easy to obtain.
• Sheaffer Snorkels are high-quality pens that generally do not wear, shrink, or fade. The gold-filled parts, for example, almost never need replacement. A quick buff makes them like new.

These are advantages that make it easier for me to provide sellers with Snorkel pens that 9 times out of 10 I can judge"excellent." And to me that means "Like new."

[inkstainedruth]

Unfortunately there are sellers who *don't* differentiate. They think "restored" means that "Oh, I've polished the pen and it looks pretty" because the concept of buying a vintage pen to *use* (as opposed to buying just as a collectible to put in a display case) is a completely alien concept. Or they've ended up with the pen (inheritance, estate sale box lot, whatever) and aren't remotely interested in keeping the pen (but figure "Get a few bucks for it rather than just toss it in the trash, because eBay...").

Additionally, one must remember that NOS doesn't necessarily mean the pen is *now* in working condition. For example, I was warned that unless you KNOW a Sheaffer Snorkel is repaired and in working condition, and you fill the pen when there's a leak, you'll end up with a rusty spring -- and that's a $20 US repair JUST to replace the spring (or was the last time I had one serviced, when a friend inherited one and I gave her an estimate of how much a repair would be, based on my experience; in her case the spring had to be replaced -- and that was a couple of years ago at this point...).

Beechwood is correct in the recommendation to ask questions of the seller. What I was taught, when I first decided I wanted a Parker 51, was to ask specific questions about the condition. Are there cracks, chips, bite marks? Does the mechanism work (i.e., the pen take up liquid)? What shape is the nib and feed in (such as whether the tines are aligned, condition of the tipping, etc.)? Also, ask for better photos of the nib and feed in particular, because a lot of photos are blurry. And be willing to walk away, if you don't think the deal is good, or the seller doesn't seem reasonable on offers -- because (believe it or not) there WILL be another pen come along that is as good or better a deal.

I got outbid (by a lot -- as in WAY more than I thought the pen should be going for after having done research) a few months ago on a Parker 75 Ciselé with an fine nib. Then, a few weeks later? Sole bidder on one with a broad nib -- waited till the end and bid the minimum. Nobody else was even LOOKING at that listing.... Okay, it wasn't an early flat top, but still. And it being a later (mid 1970s) one with the dished tassies wasn't as much of an issue for me as for someone who's a "c-worder".

And someone recently posted about getting a Plum Demi 51 (I think a set). Much nicer condition than mine because I think from the photos they had rolled gold caps. Dunno the price paid. Mine? Got a number of years ago for a reasonable price (never got outbid, and my maximum *wasn't* exorbitant); mine is user grade, Lustraloy cap, some corrosion on the sac sleeve. But writes like a dream. The previous one I saw? I dropped out at a higher price than what I ended up paying for mine, and that pen (which did have a rolled gold cap) went for $102 and change, IIRC). Yet the same weekend I got mine, Farmersmum got a full size Plummer for just over HALF what I had paid. Go figure.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Estycollector]

Originality coupled with working is of primary importance.

[silverlifter]

My postings always begin, "Restored Sheaffer . . . " and under the heading Condition I say in the first sentence, "This Sheaffer Snorkel Sentinel (or Valiant, Admiral, etc.) is in excellent (or very good, good, etc.) restored condition."

 

I go on in all my postings to list the steps in my restoration process and the most important facts about my offer to sell the pen...

 

And I can confirm that your pens are restored to the condition you describe!

[Paul-in-SF]

Some thoughts:

 

Speaking strictly as a buyer, I never expect any vintage pen to be in as-new condition, even NOS pens, because of the fragility and perishability of so many of the components. I am continually amazed that used 80-90 year-old pens are in as good condition as they are, a tribute to the engineering and care in construction when they were manufactured, as well as to the treatment they have had during their previous existence.

 

For me, restored fountain pens land somewhere between restored classic cars, which need to be as good or better than new to satisfy, and restored antique furniture, where patina and other signs of age (outside of actual damage) seem to be valued and preserved as far as possible during repairs (I call as witness Thomas Johnson Antique Furniture Restorer on Youtube). A fountain pen that is in clean working condition but that has mild surface scratches and perhaps a touch of brassing is about as good as I expect from any fountain pen that has actually been used -- although careful and considerate polishing is not unwelcome. That history of use is as important to some of us as having it look as pristine as if it had never been out of the box is to others.

 

So, to the OP: "restored" has so many meanings that I agree that the seller should list what they have done. I have one hard rule for myself: "restored" should not be used if there is anything on the pen that doesn't work as it should.

[VacNut]

I estimate that I've restored and sold on eBay 400 to 500 Sheaffer Snorkels over the last 4 to 5 years. My postings always begin, "Restored Sheaffer . . . " and under the heading Condition I say in the first sentence, "This Sheaffer Snorkel Sentinel (or Valiant, Admiral, etc.) is in excellent (or very good, good, etc.) restored condition."

 

I go on in all my postings to list the steps in my restoration process and the most important facts about my offer to sell the pen:

 

All restorations include

• disassembly, cleaning,

• replacement of all seals and the sac,

• smoothing and adjusting the nib,

• refinishing the plastic and gold-filled surfaces,

• filling the pen with ink (not just dipping) and producing multiple writing samples over 2 days (like the one in the photo).

• I guarantee the pens I restore write smoothly and fill as designed.

• Payment is expected within 3 days.

• $3.95 includes first-class postage and insurance. Shipping to US addresses only.

 

Buyers unfamiliar with my work have clear photos and my 100% Positive Feedback rating. Actual comments from sellers are available when a prospective buyer clicks on my seller name, "3rdlake robert."

 

I have limited my work to Sheaffer Snorkels for a number of reasons:

• Snorkels are interesting and challenging to a restorer.
• Snorkels have become popular collectibles.
• Although there are a number of models, most parts are interchangeable and easily available.
• The "wear parts" (seals, sacs, etc.) are inexpensive and easy to obtain.
• Sheaffer Snorkels are high-quality pens that generally do not wear, shrink, or fade. The gold-filled parts, for example, almost never need replacement. A quick buff makes them like new.

These are advantages that make it easier for me to provide sellers with Snorkel pens that 9 times out of 10 I can judge"excellent." And to me that means "Like new."

It is my hope that all sellers or pen restorers take the time to describe their process as thoroughly as you. I think it would be very helpful to the buyers to understand all the care and effort that you have committed to “re-furnish” the pens. Unfortunately, I rarely see this level of detail on the pen listings, even from very reputable pen sellers. I suppose it is a question of time commitment and record keeping.

 

There are many pen sellers, who do not perform their own repairs/restorations. Should they be responsible to know how the pen was returned to working order?

 

I would agree that NOS does not imply that the pen is functional. Would that apply to another misunderstood term: “Mint”?

[Beechwood]

There was once a seller on FPN who was clearly selling old and well used pens but describing them as NOS, when challenged she accepted that they were old pens but new stick to her.

 

Another seller had no problem in bending the definition of Mint, which I regard as unused, others say 'no sign of use, which is not quite the same thing as in this table

 

M Mint No signs at all of use

NM Near Mint Slightest signs of use

EX Excellent Imprints good, writes well, looks great

ExF Extra Fine One of the following: some brassing, some darkening, or some wear.

Fn Fine Used, parts show wear

G Good Well used, imprints may be almost gone, plating wear

F Fair A parts pen

 

IMHO, the definition is biased, for example Extra Fine, again in my opinion should be in very good condition and without major fault and Fair should be a pen that works but is scruffy, not fit for parting out only.

Edited August 29, 2020 by Beechwood

[Estycollector]

I dislike the discription, "minty".....LOL!!

[VacNut]

If you use original equipment parts that are from the appropriate period of manufacture, should this bother anybody?

 

Then, if you use an original equipment part of different period of manufacture, or a replacement part, such as the parts made by Ariel Kullock, that should be footnoted if you care about keeping something "correct." Keeping the original replaced part was something I used to do in some cases.

From a functionality point of view, the replacement parts do not matter.

I was going to write that the pen would be considered no longer original, but I corrected myself. To us these pens are “static” objects, but in their day they were utilitarian objects that would be regularly repaired - which may have involved the replacement of seals, caps, clips, jewels, nibs...sometimes with factory parts that did not match the original parts. I would not consider replacement parts any less original.

[FarmBoy]

Wen consensus is reached on “restored” we should move on to “over restored” as the next discussion point.