Pens From China And Japan

[Charles Skinner]

I may be way over my head now, and could be in "deep weeds." ---- But, here goes anyway. ---- I have more than a few pens from China and Japan, and use them all. --- Now, am I right in thinking that their style of writing, -- or way of writing --- is not like our "Western" style of writing. ---- shape of letters, etc. --- So, my question is: ---- Do they use the pens they sell to us for daily writings? Or, are these pens,--- many of which are very good, ---- meant only for the "Western world?" --- Hope I am not "stepping on anyone's toes!" --- Just wondering. ---

 

Charles Skinner

[carola]

As far as I know, good pens are highly valued in Japan, for example.

 

And as for writing styles: It is true that the characters differ strongly from each other. But if you break down no matter what characters of each and every language, you will see the same components: straight lines going up and down, left and right and also diagonally, curved lines of different shapes, points. Did I miss out on anything? I think that should be about it.

 

So no matter what style you are writing - a good pen with a nib to your liking should be able to do it.

[Kenlowe]

Hi Charles

 

I do not have your experience of Japanese pens, sorry but I avoid them. I had always followed the idea that because the huge majority of nibs were fine or extra fine that suited Chinese characters that the pens were sold for the Chinese and Japanese home markets primarily and other markets could get involved if they wished. If the pen makers were targetting Western markets then perhaps they would be making nibs that suited western buyers, being, medium, broad, obliques and so on.

 

Perhaps I am wrong.

[challer61]

Hi Charles

 

I do not have your experience of Japanese pens, sorry but I avoid them. I had always followed the idea that because the huge majority of nibs were fine or extra fine that suited Chinese characters that the pens were sold for the Chinese and Japanese home markets primarily and other markets could get involved if they wished. If the pen makers were targetting Western markets then perhaps they would be making nibs that suited western buyers, being, medium, broad, obliques and so on.

 

Perhaps I am wrong.

And yet I buy all my pens with EF nibs and can barely read Japanese. "Over there" you can buy almost any width nib in person.

[Intensity]

Hi Charles

 

I do not have your experience of Japanese pens, sorry but I avoid them. I had always followed the idea that because the huge majority of nibs were fine or extra fine that suited Chinese characters that the pens were sold for the Chinese and Japanese home markets primarily and other markets could get involved if they wished. If the pen makers were targetting Western markets then perhaps they would be making nibs that suited western buyers, being, medium, broad, obliques and so on.

 

Perhaps I am wrong.

 

I am sorry to point it out, but you are wrong All the major Japanese brands offer nibs that are comparably wide to standard Western nibs. Sailor, Pilot, and Platinum Medium nibs are pretty comparable to western Medium. My Sailor and Pilot mediums are juicy and quite broad. The Japanese Broad nib is broad indeed. The nibs are usually excellently tuned with good quality control and are smooth. It's only if you get on the finer side of Fine that you might end up with very thin lines. My Pilot VP Fines are most definitely not too fine either, more like western fine to extra fine and all very smooth--some can even write like Western Medium with wetter inks.

 

P.S.: there's also the C nib which stands for Coarse. It's even broader than B (broad). Looks like a fine sharpie on paper.

 

Here's my comparison table:

 

Edited July 31, 2020 by Intensity

[Kenlowe]

I see, thank you for the information Intensity, I must admit that I am surprised.

 

 

I don't buy Japanese pens and perhaps I have missed out.

[inkstainedruth]

Kenlowe, I think you may have misunderstood what you may have read in other threads. Japanese and Chinese nibs do tend to be narrower compared to their European counterparts, but that does NOT mean -- as Intensity pointed out -- that they ONLY make fine or extra fine nibs. Because they don't. While my personal preference is for fine and medium width nibs (in both Western and Asian pens), I do have a Sailor Pro-Gear Slim with a zoom nib (which will give a wider or narrower line depending on the angle the pen is held to the paper) and a cheap Chinese pen with a fude (calligraphy) nib -- it has an upwards curve to the tines and is very nice for doing Western style calligraphy, like uncial hand.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Intensity]

I should also add that there might be some variability over time too with the same pen model and same nib designation. I have an older (but still very modern) Pilot Vanishing Point 18K gold-tone nib designated as Fine, and it writes much finer than all 3 of my most-recently purchased Vanishing Point Decimos with 18K rhodium plated "Fine" nibs. The new Fine nibs all write similar to each other with the same inks, a wider line than my older yellow gold 18K Fine. I'm not sure if some change occurred to the nib tuning in the past few years, but my new Fines can write pretty broad lines compared to what I expected. Definitely not what I would associate with a "Japanese Fine" stereotype.

 

The jump down to Extra Fine from Fine on these Vanishing Point nibs is dramatic. Extra Fine is really super fine.

 

My Sailor 14K and 18K extra fines write really fine lines. My Sailor 21K Fine, and 2 21K Mediums write juicy and significantly broader lines than the Extra Fines.

Edited July 31, 2020 by Intensity

[A Smug Dill]

I have more than a few pens from China and Japan, and use them all. --- Now, am I right in thinking that their style of writing, -- or way of writing --- is not like our "Western" style of writing. ---- shape of letters, etc. --- So, my question is: ---- Do they use the pens they sell to us for daily writings?

 

I had always followed the idea that because the huge majority of nibs were fine or extra fine that suited Chinese characters that the pens were sold for the Chinese and Japanese home markets primarily and other markets could get involved if they wished. If the pen makers were targetting Western markets then perhaps they would be making nibs that suited western buyers, being, medium, broad, obliques and so on.

 

Perhaps I am wrong.

I think it's badly misguided to lump Japanese fountain pens, their typical nib widths, and the preferences of consumers in their home country together with that of their Chinese counterparts.

 

What is somewhat true is that 'Western' markets are, well, ... secondary for most pen brands from both Japan and China. Users who primarily write in English are unquestionably a minority — objectively, in terms of numbers and percentages — in their respective target customer bases, so rationally they are not the ones for whom the pens are specifically designed; the smaller-yet-again subset among those users who want to write with broader nibs are a less relevant concern and lesser priority yet again for business.

 

Nevertheless, at least Pilot and Sailor (if not also Platinum; I just can't think of a specific model off the top of my head) produce many limited editions that are primarily for export and often not even available for retail in their home markets; so, even though the 'Western' markets may be relatively small-time, they still get a piece of the pie and are not completely invisible to the companies. Pilot makes at least one limited edition Capless Vanishing Point model for export markets every year; and, notwithstanding some retailers will allow their customers a choice of nibs — when spare/replacement self-contained nib assemblies of different nib width grades are readily available from Pilot — when ordering those pens, my recollection is that Pilot only offered the the 2012 LE model with Medium nibs straight from the factory, back when it was current and I was looking to buy one.

 

The Sky, Earth, Ocean and Fire limited editions and Purple Cosmos, Red Supernova and Blue Dwarf limited editions of the pen models in Sailor's Professional Gear product line, and the Wicked Witch of the West limited edition of the models in its 1911 product line, are/were all targeted for markets outside of Japan, and are/were all available with Medium and Broad nib options (and Zoom and Music nibs for at least some models). Even special editions that are available in, or even primarily targeted at, the Japanese domestic market are not being constrained to being fitted with only Fine or Extra Fine nibs; the Koshu-Inden models are only available with Medium-Fine nibs, and the Kabazaiku model is only available with Medium nibs. The top-of-the-range King Of Pen models in both the Profit (aka 1911) and Professional Gear product lines are only available with Medium and Broad nibs, but not Fine or Extra Fine nibs.

 

Let's talk about "entry-level" steel-nibbed models for a moment. The Pilot MR (of which the MR Metropolitan is just one, but not the only, range), Prera, 78G and Kakuno models are all available with both Fine and Medium (and sometimes other) nibs. The Platinum Preppy, Prefounte and (discontinued?) Balance are all available with both Fine and Medium (and sometimes other) nibs. The relatively humble Sailor Profit Junior and Lecoule models are only available with Medium-Fine nibs; while the Young Profit model with silver trim is available with both Fine and Medium nibs, and every nib option from EF to Zoom and Music is available for the black Young Profit with gold trim.

 

On the other hand, with Chinese pens you may have somewhat more difficulty finding pens that are factory-fitted with Medium nibs, and flat out struggle finding round-tipped broad nibs (as opposed to bent, 'Fude' and broad-edged nibs), because there is little demand for such in the Chinese domestic market. It's not so much the 'shape' of written Chinese, but the stroke density required when writing on typical (6mm–8mm) ruling in lined notebooks and journals on the market.

 

I produced the following writing sample, on Rhodia Dotpad No.16 80g/m² 5mm dot grid paper, in different languages for illustration. (N.B. I don't understand Esperanto, Latin or Japanese, so I'm just rote-copying some text, and may have made some mistakes since what I 'wrote' is unintelligible to me.) The inline image is scaled for the screen on my 13-inch MacBook Pro, as well as my secondary monitor, to be approximately 'real-size', but you can click on it to bring up a (larger) 200dpi image.

 

 

Now, imagine if you were trying to write a full page in English using every ruled line on a 5mm-ruled sheet, and so the x-height of your lowercase letters would be about 2mm, maybe 2.5mm at a maximum. How easy would it be for you, and how legible would your handwriting be, if you used a Medium or Broad nib?

 

Obviously you could choose to use a sheet with more generous guidelines (or none at all, and just space your writing as you like on a blank sheet), but then so could the Chinese. Your writing on a 7mm-ruled sheet may be the loose equivalent of someone writing in Chinese on a 1cm-ruled sheet; and, yes, they can do it readily and legibly with a Medium, Broad, or 'art'/'calligraphy'/'Fude' nib. But why would they want to do so, when the most common line heights on lined notepads/notebooks/journals are between 6mm and 7mm? So, it's not primarily the shape or structure of Chinese characters, but whether paper (ruling styles and sheet sizes) easily and cheaply available in the stationery market suit writing in taller characters.

 

Japanese writing in kana has a lower stroke density than kanji (or Chinese hanzi), and so it makes sense that there is relatively more demand for Medium nibs for Japanese pens in their home market, than Medium nibs for Chinese pens among users of Chinese origin.

Edited August 2, 2020 by A Smug Dill

[carlos.q]

 

Here's my comparison table:

 

Thank you for this very useful table!

[Kenlowe]

Kenlowe, I think you may have misunderstood what you may have read in other threads. Japanese and Chinese nibs do tend to be narrower compared to their European counterparts, but that does NOT mean -- as Intensity pointed out -- that they ONLY make fine or extra fine nibs. Because they don't. While my personal preference is for fine and medium width nibs (in both Western and Asian pens), I do have a Sailor Pro-Gear Slim with a zoom nib (which will give a wider or narrower line depending on the angle the pen is held to the paper) and a cheap Chinese pen with a fude (calligraphy) nib -- it has an upwards curve to the tines and is very nice for doing Western style calligraphy, like uncial hand.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

 

Hi Ruth

 

My experience of buying Japanese pen is limited, there nearest I have come to buying a Japanese pen was a Cross verve with a Namiki nib, this was about 2006.

 

My only idea about the Chinese or Japanese pens and fine nibs comes from 2 students who told me that they could only use Extra fine nibs for characters, I took it that would be a common approach.

 

When I have bought Chinese pens the majority, if not all, had fine nibs, perhaps I didn't look hard enough but then I wasn't that keen on buying a japanese pen. I thought then that if someone like Jinhao did some more interesting nibs then they would increase their global sales.

 

Your zoom nib sounds fun.

Edited August 1, 2020 by Kenlowe

[Mech-for-i]

As far as I know, good pens are highly valued in Japan, for example.

 

And as for writing styles: It is true that the characters differ strongly from each other. But if you break down no matter what characters of each and every language, you will see the same components: straight lines going up and down, left and right and also diagonally, curved lines of different shapes, points. Did I miss out on anything? I think that should be about it.

 

So no matter what style you are writing - a good pen with a nib to your liking should be able to do it.

Hmm ... well well, that's a misconception, Asian Language ( and not just Chinese and Japanese ) had a lot more variety in executing the writing and this is part due to the nature of the Text and part due to their traditionally writing with a Brush ( or Stylus ) ; if we only talk Chinese and Japanese then the most classic form ( as in writing ) could be well illustrated in 永字八法 ( the eight principles of Yong ) ; and believe me this is already the most basic of them all . Between Chinese, Japanese and Korean Calligraphy and day to day handwriting there is a lot of difference between the three language ( all of which derived from same root of Chinese writing long long long ago ) and also vs western writing.

 

Region of Anatoria ( Asia Minor ) all the way to Mongolia had different influence and usually different writing and the same can be said of Indian peninsula and then Asean region. Which sees a lot of Arabic influence in writing form, but also historically from Hindu influence.

 

Modern Japanese writing are far more casual and Japanese fountain pen tend to write decently well for both their home language and also Latin based cursive , and then there is Pilot FA , which is a nib Pilot specifically tailored to write the home language ( in its initial conception and execution ) , and Sailor of course had all their specialty nib to do some fancy writing one way or another. Chinese fountain pen is no different , while by nature they could be just good writer for western language , a large portion of them were and are still tailored to write the home language and that exhibit in their character which might or might not be to one's liking

Edited August 1, 2020 by Mech-for-i

[Beechwood]

We are going a little off topic but still quite interesting.

 

I lived in Hong Kong, a letter appeared under my door in Chinese, I took it into work and asked the guys to help me translate. I was surprised to hear that they couldn't read it, not because they weren't smart, they were all law graduates, it was because they didn't know the characters.

 

The idea of unable to read something that is written in your own language was a bit odd, comparing this to something written in English, even if in olde english.

Edited August 1, 2020 by Beechwood

[MBDostoevsky]

No issues of nib size with Japanese pens... i have sailor, platinum and pilot... and all are buttery smooth out of the box juicy writers....

 

Chinese pens (cheap ones) tend to have a finer nib while some comparatively expensive ones do have decent nib options.

 

In face, i regret not having the chance to buy Nakaya pens when I had the chance...

 

Nothing makes the nibs on Japanese pens short of their European or American counterparts...

[minddance]

in order to fit many lines in small spaces, there has to be a certain amount of precision, so that the strokes do not merge and ink does not pool to obscure and merge these strokes. Also, the Chinese characters very often have mini ticks at the end of strokes in various directions. Some people like their ticks sharper, smaller angled; some write less sharp at bigger angles. Some people write larger characters bigger, faster; some write stroke by stroke

 

To do these, flow and nib grind have to form a very delicate balance.

 

Writing Asian characters might also have a slightly different rhythm and articulation from English, that depends on what style one wants to write. The nib might have to be lifted more often than in some English styles and yet ink cannot allow to pool, to maintain cleanliness in strokes and ensure strokes do not merge. Of course, these all depend on what font size, how quick, what style, what pressure is exerted at different points in the character.

 

I notice a very fundamental difference between the higher end (especially gold nib) Japanese pens and western pens like Pelikan.

 

In western pens, the nibs basically glide. In Japanese and Chinese pens (generally), there can be a certain amount of glide yet able to pull the stops in writing Japanese and Chinese characters. Some pens like the finer nibbed Platinum 3776 have very close and fast interaction with the paper at any/every moment. Some people view this as response and sensitivity, others may feel this as feedback, or very strong feedback.

 

The way many of these nibs shade an ink is also different, unless the nib is tuned or manipulated.

 

Horses for courses, pick your instrument wisely, know thy Hand, know Thy Paper, know Thy Pen, know Thy Ink along the way. Have fun!

 

If you decide to judge a pen by writing figure 8s in all sizes, and infinity signs too, in all sizes, on different parts of a paper - all these very smoothly and with sumptuous ink flow, then you might be quite disappointed with some of these pens. Of course, the nib can be nibmeistered and tuned to do all of these, but, my guess is, you will not be able to fit many strokes in a small space precisely and cleanly.

 

One could use any adjective to describe these pens, but I would never use the word 'boring'.

 

I can imagine many uses of such highly precise pens in science and mathematics. Or if you are bored with pens that glide all too smoothly, and decide to have some unconventional nuances in your English writing, certain Japanese pens will do that perfectly for you.

 

A pen is never quite "just a pen" in the higher end of the Japanese pen range. I feel they usually serve certain purposes higher than casually, quickly jotting down a phone number.

 

Also, they are not for ham-fisted overt flexing to test how much the nib gives and tines spread, or whether they railroad on a broad 1-2mm long flex. The Goulet videos totally butcher the pens.

Edited August 2, 2020 by minddance

[A Smug Dill]

@minddance I think you articulated the issue much better than I did or could. Thank you!

[minddance]

@minddance I think you articulated the issue much better than I did or could. Thank you!

You are too kind.

 

I used to hate, with a capital H, many Japanese pens, Sailor, Platinum3776, Pilot Custom Heritage, but now I realised what they can do for me. It is like a revelation: some of these pens can be a little 'hand-changing' as in they transformed my hand and way of writing, if you like. I think there is alot more for me to discover in Japanese pens and plenty of room for me to work with my Chinese nibmeisters.

 

Can these pens be used in English writing? Absolutely. Whether one likes it boils down to taste and personal preference.

 

There was a point in my little fountain pen journey where I became bored with pens, I had italics, stubs, flex and I ask, what comes after these?

[carola]

@minddance: Very interesting to read. Thank you.

[Karmachanic]

English writing?

 

 

 

Latin alphabet?

[minddance]

 

 

Latin alphabet?

yes dear