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Fountain Pen Friendly Iron Gall

iron gall ink ink recipe

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53 replies to this topic

#1 RayCornett

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Posted 28 May 2020 - 22:38

Is there such a thing as a fountain pen friendly iron gall *recipe*? Not a mass marketed commercial ink. I assume it would have to be without gum arabic at least.


Edited by RayCornett, 29 May 2020 - 03:13.


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#2 IThinkIHaveAProblem

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Posted 28 May 2020 - 23:00

If you can get Konrad at KWZ to give up trade secrets... :)
Or diamine or platinum.

I always wondered how safe the one in the Townsends video would be if you just left out the gum Arabic.
Just give me the Parker 51s and nobody needs to get hurt.

#3 The Good Captain

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Posted 28 May 2020 - 23:06

Well, to buy, Pelikan 4001 Blue-Black can't be far wrong.


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#4 peroride

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Posted 29 May 2020 - 01:01

In order of favored use, mainly on gold nibs but also on short intervals to steel 

  • KWZ Iron Gall Aztec Gold - smells of vanilla!  :wub: but had one reaction with precipitate forming from reaction to old ink residue in a con-70 converter, unlike the meticulous hygiene recommendations  :unsure:
  • R&K Salix and Scabiosa - smooth flowing, clear and pleasing visuals
  • Platinum Classic Cassia and Citrus - hard to see with my old eyes until the ink does the chromadance to darkest


#5 tinta

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Posted 29 May 2020 - 01:20

Platinum Classic blue-black is very safe.


*Sailor 1911S, Black/gold, 14c. 0.8 mm. stub(JM) *1911S blue "Colours", 14c. H-B "M" BLS (PB) *2 Sailor 1911-M Burgundy/gold pens: 14c. 0.6 mm. "round-nosed" CI (MM) & 1.1 mm. CI (JM) *Sailor Pro-Gear Slim Spec. Ed. "Fire",14c. (factory) "H-B" *2 Kaweco SPECIAL fountain pens: 14c."M" "B",-0.5 mm & 0.7 mm stubs (PB) *Kaweco Stainless Steel Lilliput, 14c "B" -0.6 mm. stub (PB) *Montblanc 254, 14c. "BB" (1.1 mm?) flügelfeder factory stub

#6 IThinkIHaveAProblem

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Posted 29 May 2020 - 01:24

I could be wrong, but i think the OP meant is there any iron gall ink recipes they could MAKE that are FP friendly.


Just give me the Parker 51s and nobody needs to get hurt.

#7 peroride

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Posted 29 May 2020 - 02:17

>Any iron gall ink recipes they could MAKE that are FP friendly.

 

Purchase one the recommended ink selections, add water... and vanilla extract  :lol:

 

Just kidding, sorry for misreading the question. 

 

This symposium looks interesting...

 

 



#8 inkstainedruth

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Posted 29 May 2020 - 02:39

Nearly all modern IG inks made for fountain pens are safe, AFAIK.  I've used a number of the KWZI inks, a couple of the Platinum Classic inks, R&K Salix and Scabiosa, Akkerman IJzer-galnoten, Diamine Registrars, and a few of the inks made by FPN member Pharmacist (he was playing around with doing different colors besides blue-black about the time Konrad of KWZI was just getting started).

I use IG inks a lot in inexpensive cartridge pens (like myParker Vectors).  None of them have done any damage to stainless steel nibs (you do have to worry about dip pen nibs, which may not be stainless steel) and of course gold nibs should be okay as well.  The only ink I ever had real problems with was some vintage Sanford Pen-It, Blue-black which did not-good things to the Con-B converter in a Pilot Metropolitan; but that ink might have been outright bad at that point -- certainly none of the top color seemed to be left when I tried it out (and I only paid a buck for the ink, plus of course the cost of a replacement Con-B converter).

I don't keep IG inks in pens long term, but I don't keep pigmented inks or some really saturated inks in pens either.  I tend to run a single fill, and then either refill the pen with distilled water or just flush outright.  Remember that if you use a homemade pen flush do NOT start with ammonia solution -- swap out the ammonia in the formula with plain white vinegar because IG inks are acidic), and of course I always rinse with plain distilled water before and after the vinegar solution.

Yes, IG inks might (eventually) eat through paper -- old formula IG inks from the Middle Ages tended to be used on parchment.  But I suspect the for modern ones, the IG content is actually fairly low (and part of the reason that Salix stays much bluer than other IG blue-blacks is because the iron content is actually supposed to be fairly low compared to that of other brands.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth


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#9 RayCornett

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Posted 29 May 2020 - 03:14

#readingcomprehensiony'all 


Edited by RayCornett, 29 May 2020 - 03:16.


#10 A Smug Dill

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Posted 22 June 2020 - 07:28

Is there such a thing as a fountain pen friendly iron gall *recipe*? Not a mass marketed commercial ink.

 
Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. Even commercially available iron-gall inks, however boutique or mass-market, are almost certainly made to recipes that are developed and/or held as "trade secrets" by their respective producers.
 

#readingcomprehensiony'all

 
 
Even Kentucky Fried Chicken's "11 herbs and spices" mix is a recipe, which does not imply being readily available to you or any other consumer to reproduce at home whenever it suits. Coca-Cola's Coke "Classic" is made to a recipe, too; how else would it get mass-produced, over and over, year after year?
 
So, if others are pointing out that certain commercially available iron-gall inks are "fountain pen friendly", then it follows that "fountain pen friendly iron gall recipes" exist, irrespective of whether the recipes are available to them (or you). @IThinkIHaveAProblem even alluded,

 

If you can get Konrad at KWZ to give up trade secrets... :)

 

 

as in Konrad has his recipes, and the question is not whether the recipes exist, but whether you can get anyone to share the recipes with you.


As always:  1. Implicit in everything and every instance I write on FPN is the invitation for you to judge me as a peer in the community. I think it's only due respect to take each other's written word in online discussion seriously and apply critical judgment.  2. I do not presume to judge for you what is right, correct or valid. If I make a claim, or refute a statement in a thread, and link to references and other information in support, I beseech you to review and consider those, and judge for yourself. I may be wrong. My position or say-so carries no more weight than anyone else's here, and external parties can speak for themselves with what they have published.  3. I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable. If it is something you can test for yourself and see the results, I entreat you to do so.

#11 RayCornett

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Posted 22 June 2020 - 08:43

I am in no way asking for information on buying IG inks or seeking ink company trade secrets :)



#12 BaronWulfraed

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Posted 22 June 2020 - 17:38

I am in no way asking for information on buying IG inks or seeking ink company trade secrets :)

 

I suspect that will mean that you are stuck with looking at historical formulations (which were probably meant for dip pens -- quill, glass, relatively disposable metal nibs), maybe patent filings or material safety data sheets (for anything that is not fully hidden as a trade secret -- MSDS might give components, but not proportions), or developing your own formulation by trial and error.

 

In all three cases, you probably will have to produce some sort of accelerated pen testing regimen to determine relative "friendliness". [Humidity and air contributions to acidity -- does a nib sitting in a vial of the ink corrode, or is it just ink exposed to air on the nib that corrodes; etc.)

 



#13 RayCornett

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Posted 22 June 2020 - 17:39

 

I suspect that will mean that you are stuck with looking at historical formulations (which were probably meant for dip pens -- quill, glass, relatively disposable metal nibs), maybe patent filings or material safety data sheets (for anything that is not fully hidden as a trade secret -- MSDS might give components, but not proportions), or developing your own formulation by trial and error.

 

In all three cases, you probably will have to produce some sort of accelerated pen testing regimen to determine relative "friendliness". [Humidity and air contributions to acidity -- does a nib sitting in a vial of the ink corrode, or is it just ink exposed to air on the nib that corrodes; etc.)

 

My mistake for asking about IG recipes in the ink recipe forum. How silly of me :)



#14 sansenri

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Posted 22 June 2020 - 20:19

but then your question is unclear...

 

"Is there such a thing as a fountain pen friendly iron gall *recipe*? Not a mass marketed commercial ink. I assume it would have to be without gum arabic at least."

 

your question says "recipe" and not a "mass marketed commercial ink" so we understand you want an iron gall recipe to make your own Iron gall and that it should be FP friendly.

 

It is possible to make your own iron gall, what is more difficult is find a recipe that will be tested as FP friendly.

I posted a couple of Iron gall recipes in the ink recipe forum recently, the point is they are untested.

Currently I no longer have access to the needed chemicals, so cannot prepare it and test it myself

 

but so, here are a couple of recipes, and they start from chemicals, not from oak galls, so no messing around

(industrial ink makers don't make their iron gall recipes from oak galls...)

 

IG fountain pen ink 1
gallic acid 100 g
iron sulphate 150 g
glacial acetic acid 10 g
methylene blue 35 g
distilled water 10 liter (!)

IG fountain pen ink 2
gallic acid 100 g
iron sulphate 150 g
tartaric acid 10 g
methylene blue 35 g
distilled water 10 liter (!)

 

I would recommend to reduce the amounts by 10...

 

I also would recommend to prepare the second recipe (tartaric acid) easier to handle than glacial acetic acid (also less expensive, glacial acetic acid, water free, costs about 60 euro per 100 ml)

 

both are clearly ferro-gallic recipes

 

If you have access to the chemicals, give it a go and test it for us for FP friendliness please! :)

 



#15 IThinkIHaveAProblem

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Posted 22 June 2020 - 21:06

glacial acetic acid 

 

This sounds like something that should come in an overpriced clear recycled vegan oil free, paraben free, ozone friendly vegetarian bottle that is advertised with a white background and waterfall

 

something like this:

ax0A5YY_460s.jpg

 

but that is also extremely corrosive and will totally kill you.


Edited by IThinkIHaveAProblem, 22 June 2020 - 21:06.

Just give me the Parker 51s and nobody needs to get hurt.

#16 sansenri

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Posted 22 June 2020 - 21:26

:lol:

but no kidding, glacial acetic acid is the common chemical name given to pure acetic acid (less than 1% water content) and it is corrosive... so should be handled with care..., tartaric acid on the other hand is available in crystals, so much more easy to handle and costs much less, 50g cost about 10 euro on the bay. Since the recipe needs 1g per liter, you can "cook" 50 batches of one liter each with that... (or one 50 liter barrel of ink... :) )



#17 cellmatrix

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Posted 22 June 2020 - 21:49

A long time ago when I had mentioned I wanted to try making iron gall ink at home, fellow FPN member and iron gall ink legend Pharmacist recommended a recipe from this report which is consistent with ingredients he listed in his inks. He specifically told me that the trickiest and most expensive part was getting the super high purity aniline blue dye in order to prevent precipitation. Pharmacist was a great guy and he made amazing inks. I think this recipe was probably the basis of his famous urkundentinte blue black ink and one day, I hope to try to make it myself. Anyway, in case anyone else is interested, here is the recipe below:
 
Standard Writing Ink
 
Tannic acid 11.7 Grams 
Gallic acid crystals 3.8 Grams 
Ferrous sulphate crystals 15.0 Grams 
Hydrochloric acid,dilute,U.S.P 12.5 Grams 
Carbolic acid(phenol) 1.0 Grams 
*Dye (C.I.707;Sch.539) 3.5 Grams 
Water to make a volume of 1liter at 20° C (68° F). 
 
*soluble blue (aka aniline blue)

#18 BaronWulfraed

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Posted 23 June 2020 - 04:57

Ferrous sulphate crystals 15.0 Grams

 

Heh... wonder if that is easier to obtain than my current prescription for anemia (325mg ferrous sulfate tablets) :P



#19 cellmatrix

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Posted 23 June 2020 - 12:12

The ferrous sulphate for this recipe needs be more pure. Save your tablets for your anemia - hope you get better!!

#20 BaronWulfraed

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Posted 23 June 2020 - 14:21

The ferrous sulphate for this recipe needs be more pure. Save your tablets for your anemia - hope you get better!!

I was thinking the other way around -- since I don't think the tablets are very effective (In 50 years of memories, I've only managed to swallow one pill without chewing* -- and that was a /puny/ Dulcolax, which took some 5 minutes of trying -- while the ferrous sulfate has tons of warnings about not chewing or crushing them [along with warnings that tea could reduce effectiveness, and I live off diet tea])

 

* In the late 60s, One-A-Day vitamins had a yellowish core with a taste/smell that made one think they were sipping the concentrated contents of a sample vial that was meant to be left in the medical lab. Penicillin has a somewhat pleasant taste. Motrin doesn't really have a taste, but has a sharp bite a few seconds after crushing -- possibly the sodium component. Anacin, especially before they started coating it with wax, would dissolve into powder without needing to be chewed.







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