Why Some Of Us Hold Little Or No Interest In Vintage Pens

[mana]

 

Good post. Makes a lot of sense to me. You're a bit older. I never knew about such fine writing stuff. We used those huge pencila and lined off white paper with wood chunks.

 

Perhaps being raised in the sticks and isolation played a factor.

Now now...

[inkstainedruth]

I've already accepted the fact that the students at the local college already consider me to be vintage.

 

That makes me think of some college professor someplace, who puts out an annual list of what incoming college freshman know/don't know from frames of reference of their own experience -- I remember the year(s) when incoming frosh only remembered one Pope....

Or like the "Snow-mageddon" snowstorm in the Pittsburgh area a number of years ago. That's literally what it was being called. We hadn't been back in the area from eastern Massachusetts all that long at that point, but it was the first time after moving back that my husband had to break out the snowblower. And everyone was going "Snowmaggedon!" and I'm going "Does NOBODY around here remember the blizzard of '93? It really wasn't THAT many years ago...." (That was the storm that dropped 2+ feet of snow over the course of Friday night and Saturday). I crept across the river to work at the local Jo-Ann Fabrics, and was amazed at how many people came in the store that day.... WE employees were waiting to hear when the Pharmor next door was closing so we could call the district manager so WE could also close. At one point the woman from the Singer Department went across the parking lot to get herself lunch at the King's Family Restaurant, and my assistant manager asked the woman to get her a baked potato. She came back a little while later, in complete astonishment, going "King's is CLOSED!" (King's normally closes Christmas Day and New Year's Day and that's pretty much it...). I then crept back across the river home around 1 PM after getting my 4 hours of pay and 4 hours of "weather pay" and spent most of the rest of the day up in my sewing room in the attic watching the news from other parts of the East Coast (Birmingham, Alabama had 9" of snow in that storm; Birmingham, Alabama didn't have any SNOWPLOWS!).

"Snowmaggedon"? PFFFFT. The only real problem was that my next-door neighbor, who didn't have a driveway, had her car plowed in. And I figured that we weren't going to worry about getting dinged by the Code Enforcement Officer for not clearing our driveway, because the borough only plowed the MIDDLE of our street (including plowing my next-door neighbor in...). And was more than ready to confront the borough on it if they gave us any guff about the sidewalk....

A friend of ours did walk over from the other side of town looking for a place to stay for the night because his apartment had no heat (he walked because his car was plowed in the alley behind his building...).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[gordonf]

This has been a fascinating discussion. I have two points to offer:

 

1. Most of my small collection of pens are newish rather than vintage.

The pens I’ve collected over 20 years have been chosen for their materials. None are made of common resins or hard rubber. I like heavier pens.

Fortunately, there has been a growing group of artisans offering pens in titanium, stainless steel, brass, bronze, tungsten, ceramic, exotic woods, and sterling silver that I’ve been able to work with.

As a result, I’ve had little interest in vintage pens. That’s only because my focus so far has been elsewhere. It’s likely that this will change and I’ll start to appreciate the vintage pen market at some point. FPN is a good catalyst for this.

2. It’s interesting to compare this discussion to the vintage guitar market. For years, many accomplished players would only use vintage (1950s and 60s) guitars to get the feel and tone they wanted. As a result, prices on some vintage models went through the roof.

 

As values climbed into six figures, some individuals made replicas of the most valuable vintage models and passed them off as the real thing - at astronomical prices. At the same time, 1970s-1980s guitars from the big makers became unpopular. They were widely considered “inferior” in quality to the same models made 20 years earlier (though I owned several of those “inferior” guitars and liked ‘em!).

Guitar manufacturers appealed to the vintage market by building their own “replicas” of 1950s and 60s guitars. They priced these at a significant premium and were quite successful with this marketing move.

Today prices on many high end vintage guitars have fallen dramatically. Still, I won’t pay a premium for a replica “golden age” instrument. I’ve been surprised by many new guitars that have knocked me out with high quality and great tone for only a few hundred dollars.

All said, the variety and quality of guitars to choose from is better today than ever before

Edited March 16, 2020 by gordonf

[Runnin_Ute]

 

Just asking because I am looking/considering, why no Parker 51 Aeromatic?

I have a 51 Special (an aerometric) and a Vacumatic in addition to a Vacumatic. Sorry if that was no as clear as it could have been.

[vicpen123]

Defining vintage has become too hard because, for those of us born in the first half of the 20th century, if we define P45s as vintage then it defines us as well.

 

Maybe to my children and grandchildren I am considered vintage , but NOT TO ME. So let's avoid the use of age, dates etc.

 

My preference is to use a more subjective descriptions as follows (using mostly Parker models as examples):

 

Original - includes hard rubber, novel filling systems, eg early Duofolds, button filler, Lucky curve

 

Development - introduction of new materials such as celluloid, plastics and more inventive filling systems eg. Vacuumatic, early "51"s, eyedroppers, piston

 

Expansion - refinement of materials and filling systems eg Aerometric, Touchdown, Snorkel

 

Simplicity - same materials but newer designs and cartridge/converters as standard for most brands eg P45, P75, Triumph,

 

Of course there are exceptions (L2000) but it is an attempt to avoid dates and introduce design elements to define an era.

[Estycollector]

 

That makes me think of some college professor someplace, who puts out an annual list of what incoming college freshman know/don't know from frames of reference of their own experience -- I remember the year(s) when incoming frosh only remembered one Pope....

Or like the "Snow-mageddon" snowstorm in the Pittsburgh area a number of years ago. That's literally what it was being called. We hadn't been back in the area from eastern Massachusetts all that long at that point, but it was the first time after moving back that my husband had to break out the snowblower. And everyone was going "Snowmaggedon!" and I'm going "Does NOBODY around here remember the blizzard of '93? It really wasn't THAT many years ago...." (That was the storm that dropped 2+ feet of snow over the course of Friday night and Saturday). I crept across the river to work at the local Jo-Ann Fabrics, and was amazed at how many people came in the store that day.... WE employees were waiting to hear when the Pharmor next door was closing so we could call the district manager so WE could also close. At one point the woman from the Singer Department went across the parking lot to get herself lunch at the King's Family Restaurant, and my assistant manager asked the woman to get her a baked potato. She came back a little while later, in complete astonishment, going "King's is CLOSED!" (King's normally closes Christmas Day and New Year's Day and that's pretty much it...). I then crept back across the river home around 1 PM after getting my 4 hours of pay and 4 hours of "weather pay" and spent most of the rest of the day up in my sewing room in the attic watching the news from other parts of the East Coast (Birmingham, Alabama had 9" of snow in that storm; Birmingham, Alabama didn't have any SNOWPLOWS!).

"Snowmaggedon"? PFFFFT. The only real problem was that my next-door neighbor, who didn't have a driveway, had her car plowed in. And I figured that we weren't going to worry about getting dinged by the Code Enforcement Officer for not clearing our driveway, because the borough only plowed the MIDDLE of our street (including plowing my next-door neighbor in...). And was more than ready to confront the borough on it if they gave us any guff about the sidewalk....

A friend of ours did walk over from the other side of town looking for a place to stay for the night because his apartment had no heat (he walked because his car was plowed in the alley behind his building...).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

Tennessee didn't have snow plows either. At our place is was three to four feet. No power for 6 days. I burned the wood pile and sent the little ones to their great grandparents with wood stove up and down stairs. Both of the old folks are long gone now. After those six days, Spring suddenly emerged. Thank you for the reminder now.

[Addertooth]

For the bright and dividing line for vintage, I fall upon the vernacular "They don't make them like that anymore".

 

Although there are some exceptions, things they no longer make:

 

Lever fillers.

Crescent fillers (except some of the new Conklins).

Nibs with sliders for adjusting stiffness or flex. Such as Wahl-Eversharp "self fitting point"..

Hard Rubber (with the exception of a few custom builders).

Celluloid (with limited boutique exceptions).

True Art-Deco designs (once again with a few boutique exceptions).

Solid Gold pens sold en-masse. (The number of "solid" 14k Gold Skyline pens out there is insane, a lot were sold).

Hand Engraved metal pens with floral/bamboo/scrollwork patterns, no company wants to pay for that level of craftsmanship anymore.

Roller clips (except for limited production reproduction pens at a high cost).

Ring Pens, very few want to rock a pendant pen anymore... and they tend to be small.

Bulb filers, a cousin to the lever fillers, but typically with more ink capacity.

 

For good, or for ill, Vintage means obtaining something which is not readily available in the modern sense.

An example of some of the factors above:

 

Edited March 18, 2020 by Addertooth

[TSherbs]

Vintage pen buying and maintaining is generally more bother: no warranties, older parts. They also tend to be smaller, which I do not prefer.

 

Unlike Dill, I care about history and aesthetics--a lot--but I don't have to own it. In fact, NOT owning things of beauty makes me appreciate them more when I encounter them. Possession is a curse, fundamentally. We just tend to look the other way.

 

Thoreau: a man is rich in proportion to the number of things that he can afford to let alone (I think he means for women, too)

Edited March 17, 2020 by TSherbs

[Arkanabar]

For the bright and dividing line for vintage, I fall upon the vernacular "They don't make them like that anymore".

 

All though there are some exceptions, things they no longer make:

 

Lever fillers.

Crescent fillers (except some of the new Conklins).

Nibs with sliders for adjusting stiffness or flex. Such as Wahl-Eversharp "self fitting point"..

Hard Rubber (with the exception of a few custom builders).

Celluloid (with limited boutique exceptions)

 

 

Ahem. There are still a tolerable number of Indian manufacturers that still rock hard rubber/ ebonite -- Ranga, ASA, Fountain Pen Revolution. Furthermore, ASA and FPR have ebonite pens by other makers on their sites, too. And Noodler's offers the Konrad and possibly the Boston Safety in ebonite.

[A Smug Dill]

All though there are some exceptions, things they no longer make:

But, as you say, there are exceptions. "The hobby" is now in an era when those features you listed aren't in sufficient demand to make them commonplace in current production models of today's fountain pens; the majority of users just aren't that (if at all) interested or prepared to pay extra for those features. They're not so readily available to "everyman" because it isn't what "everyman" wants in a writing instrument, even within the limited scope of pens that one fills/writes with bottled ink.

 

Nibs with sliders for adjusting stiffness or flex. Such as Wahl-Eversharp "self fitting point"..

Pilot Justus 95. Relatively high-priced compared to other Pilot models sporting 14K gold nibs, quite well liked by users judging by anecdotes, and I'll hazard a guess those pens aren't selling well enough for Pilot to offer the nib/mechanism in other models that have a different (e.g. cigar or torpedo) shape, when that's probably easy enough for the manufacturer to do.

 

Hard Rubber (with the exception of a few custom builders).

Ebonite, you mean? There is a Platinum #3776 Century model with ebonite cap and barrel, and the Platinum Izumo Tamenuri's pen body is urushi on ebonite. Pilot Custom Urushi also has an ebonite body under the urushi lacquer. Sailor makes a King Of Pen model with ebonite body.

 

Celluloid (with limited boutique exceptions).

There are at least eight Platinum #3776 Century models with celluloid bodies in current production.

 

Hand Engraved metal pens with floral/bamboo/scrollwork patterns, no company wants to pay for that level of craftsmanship anymore.

I don't know if any of the Japanese "Big Three" fountain pen manufacturer makes them at the high end, quite possibly only for the Japanese domestic market.

 

Roller clips (except for limited production reproduction pens at a high cost).

Do you mean like the clip on the Leonardo Momento Zero and Furore models?

 

For good, or for ill, Vintage means obtaining something which is not readily available in the modern sense.

Given the exceptions, I'd say many of those things are still readily available in new pens, but just (in my opinion, rightly) seen as niche products/features today and priced as such.

[Addertooth]

A Smug Dill,

 

Yes, there are some examples... but many are more pricy than their vintage cousins... and would be uncommon find in a pen shop.

As I did say, "Although there are some exceptions...", as I know there always are exceptions to much which is said here... but those exceptions are exactly that.

They do not represent a major segment of the market, and their price tends to be steep (with exceptions).

 

Some of these retro-design pens do not compare well with vintage, such as the Pilot Justus 95. I have looked at writing samples of this pen, and it's range of nib adjustment does not measure up to the vintage nibs.

 

All of this said, I do applaud your knowledge of modern pens. You providing active links was a real pearl. I had not idea the celluloid Platinum 3776 Century pens were so darn steep (shudder). I have decided my celluloid pens need to be shown a bit more respect.

[Ron Z]

 

 

Roller clips (except for limited production reproduction pens at a high cost).

 

Bexley used them on many of their standard production pens.

[Antenociticus]

Hard Rubber (with the exception of a few custom builders).

 

In addition to the impressive variety already mentioned, there are also the Opus88 pens from Taiwan.

[JosephKing]

I wanted to love my vintage pens, but I was let down because my expectations (based on all the stories and videos) were grander than the reality.

 

In my time with them, the notion of their "history" was not as prominent as I would have hoped. The "history" that did stand out was my own story with the pen: the adventure of acquiring it; the nice people I've met; how I've grown with it. But there's nothing unique about vintage for there to be a good story.

 

And so... I'm left feeling indifferent.

[JonSzanto]

I wanted to love my vintage pens, but I was let down because my expectations (based on all the stories and videos) were grander than the reality.

 

Uninspiring, poorly made and poorly performing pens have been made in all eras, even today. It could have been the selection of vintage pens you ended up with, or it could be, as you imply, just not your thing.

 

I've had pens fail to make me swoon from over a 100 year range, from very old pens I had high hopes for, as well as brand new pens that were as meh as could be contained in an object. Finding the right ones, of any era, is a partial challenge but yields great reward.

[JosephKing]

Finding the right ones, of any era, is a partial challenge but yields great reward.

I agree completely that one needs to find the right pen, no matter the era. My issue stems from the general notion that older pens are better, and that the history adds to the value. It's those expectations which caused my let down, not the pens themselves. I think if I were unaware, and just happened on a vintage that did something unexpected, I'd have been pleasantly surprised. But there was a pressure there, something to live up to, that could have only existed in my mind, and therefore could only have failed.

 

My samples: Waterman 52 with some type of flex nib, Esterbrook SJ with a NOS manifold fine, Aerometric 51 with an oblique fine.

Edited March 26, 2020 by JosephKing

[JonSzanto]

My issue stems from the general notion that older pens are better, and that the history adds to the value. It's those expectations which caused my let down, not the pens themselves. I think if I were unaware, and just happened on a vintage that did something unexpected, I'd have been pleasantly surprised. But there was a pressure there, something to live up to, that could have only existed in my mind, and therefore could only have failed.

 

My samples: Waterman 52 with some type of flex nib, Esterbrook SJ with a NOS manifold fine, Aerometric 51 with an oblique fine.

 

As to better, that would only apply to the best examples of older pens. I don't think I've seen anyone imply that simply by being a vintage pen, it is superior; I know I would never propose such.

 

As to owning history, that is completely a personal experience and interest and, again, not something I would expect everyone to find compelling. A brand-new pen could have a history, if one were to purchase a pen that had handmade aspects to it, and you would have knowledge of the person or persons involved. Other new pens might be one of thousands rolling off an assembly line, widgets to be used. And, of course, everything in-between.

 

It's impossible to talk about anything and know what the recipient to the conversation will hear and how they will internalize it. I try to dispel some of the routine pen myths when I can, such as here. If the three pens you list are your sum total of vintage pen experience, you have barely scratched the surface, but it may have been enough to let you know that isn't your interest, which is perfectly well and good.

 

I just received a Sheaffer flat top pen from the 20s today, a real beater pen but purchased (for a very low price due to the cosmetics) because it has a great nib - a giant, thick gold weapon with a M/B tip on it, wider than most from that era. It will find a home in another pen because they just don't make nibs like this anymore. Anywhere. At all.

Edited March 26, 2020 by JonSzanto

[Estycollector]

I agree completely that one needs to find the right pen, no matter the era. My issue stems from the general notion that older pens are better, and that the history adds to the value. It's those expectations which caused my let down, not the pens themselves. I think if I were unaware, and just happened on a vintage that did something unexpected, I'd have been pleasantly surprised. But there was a pressure there, something to live up to, that could have only existed in my mind, and therefore could only have failed.

 

My samples: Waterman 52 with some type of flex nib, Esterbrook SJ with a NOS manifold fine, Aerometric 51 with an oblique fine.

 

I am new here, but I have never gotten the impression that old is better. What I have learned is that when fountain pens were common, ordinary, and what was available for a variety of uses, some makers produced excellent pens that any and everyone could afford. This is why I collect and promote Esterbrook.

 

Manifold fine nibs were a purpose driven nib. Esterbrook is famous for making nibs for a particular purpose. At least with Estys, you cannot have a reasoned appraisal with only one nib.

 

I have been less impressed with Parker 51's. Not a poor experience, but just not any better or as good as then Estys. Also, I have a Lamy Al Star and had a MB 149. So, I compare my Esterbrooks and 51's with those more modern pens to arrive at my preferences.

[JonSzanto]

 

I am new here, but I have never gotten the impression that old is better. What I have learned is that when fountain pens were common, ordinary, and what was available for a variety of uses, some makers produced excellent pens that any and everyone could afford. This is why I collect and promote Esterbrook.

 

Manifold fine nibs were a purpose driven nib. Esterbrook is famous for making nibs for a particular purpose. At least with Estys, you cannot have a reasoned appraisal with only one nib.

 

I have been less impressed with Parker 51's. Not a poor experience, but just not any better or as good as then Estys. Also, I have a Lamy Al Star and had a MB 149. So, I compare my Esterbrooks and 51's with those more modern pens to arrive at my preferences.

 

I can't say from what you post what your complete set of experiences are. I will say that if you don't have exposure to many of the great pens in the years before the Esterbrook line, you have missed many a great pen. Many. And I say that as someone who owns quite a few Estie J/SJ/LJ pens and even more nibs. I know what those pens are about and what their market position was. I think you will tend to alter your perspective, as time goes on and you gain exposure to a wider range of pens.

 

All, of course, without losing even a drop of the love for Esterbrooks.

[Estycollector]

 

I can't say from what you post what your complete set of experiences are. I will say that if you don't have exposure to many of the great pens in the years before the Esterbrook line, you have missed many a great pen. Many. And I say that as someone who owns quite a few Estie J/SJ/LJ pens and even more nibs. I know what those pens are about and what their market position was. I think you will tend to alter your perspective, as time goes on and you gain exposure to a wider range of pens.

 

All, of course, without losing even a drop of the love for Esterbrooks.

 

Yes, John you are correct with your assessment of my experience. I am not able at this point to restore those older pens.

Edited March 27, 2020 by Estycollector