Why Some Of Us Hold Little Or No Interest In Vintage Pens

[A Smug Dill]

I can just see this topic drawing more replies from fans and devotees, to avow their love for vintage pens or try to argue others into sharing their sentiment, than contributions from the disinterested to share their reasons and reinforce that we are a non-homogenous community with vastly disparate values and preferences, joined only by a broad shared interest in the acquisition and/or use of fountain pens (for whichever individual purposes and reasons).

Not wanting to go off-topic, but I’m curious why you’re not interested in vintage pens. I have a few that I think you’d appreciate very much. As much as I admire modern pens, the pens I cherish most are vintage pens (purely because of how amazing they write, not because of materials or design or age).

I don't doubt some vintage pens write beautifully and write well, and may possibly suit my preferences in pens and nibs to a T, or even show me new things about the hobby.

However,

• Some consumers like shiny new things and 'virgin' material possessions; I do.
  
  Would I be interested in a 'new', never-inked fountain pen made long before I was born, and have managed not to be dulled or tarnished by age and use? Very possibly, but I'd expect they would be difficult to find, and terribly expensive in the face of demand from other interested prospective buyers, which could well include those who know and love the particular pen model, as well as those who don't even enjoy using fountain pens, but simply have more money than they can spend and just want to have one or a dozen for display in a cabinet as part of their personal collection.
  
  By the way, I respect both of those groups equally; neither love I don't share nor wealth I don't have elevates one above the other. But I expect both would be ready to outbid me, should the opportunity to buy such a vintage pen arise. So, the prospective amount of work and low likelihood of success in hunting for it both contribute to my disinterest altogether; there are easier things to pursue and they could be just as rewarding.
  
• I personally see no inherent beauty in senescence, no inherent virtue in having endured the ravages of time, no inherent value in the legacies of names and brands; and I have no interest in developing any positive sentiment for such things.
  
• And, no, of course I'm not interested in preservation or conservation more generally. I see myself as living a disposable life in an impermanent world. As I told my wife many times, my greatest wish is to be completely forgotten after I die; not erased from history and have all the impacts I caused undone, but simply for everyone else to be living in the present and/or forward-looking.
  
• I have no appreciation of and no use for history, other than when I want to research the modes (or types, patterns, etc.) of failure, and their respective likelihood and consequences, for a particular something, with a view to either avoiding such for myself, or inducing it elsewhere to exploit and/or benefit from those failures. (Some would say that's just another way of saying learning from history.)
  
• Then, a generally easier way of managing the risk of failure in consumer goods is simply to buy brand new modern products, which comes with warranties and guarantees (in accordance with consumer law, manufacturers' policies, etc.), and for which spare parts of the same age are readily available, so that swapping a replacement component in does not in any way change the appearance or traits of an item.
  
• Especially when it is not "because of materials or design", I have to conclude that the characteristics of a product can be replicated today, if the will to do so is there. Does the alloy used make a vintage nib special? Well, unless the technology (including the known material composition, and the procedure for producing it) to make it has been lost of human civilisation since, or we have simply run out of the raw materials, it can be replicated in a brand new and modern product, whether it's produced for the mass consumer market (assuming there is sufficient interest and demand) and sold for reasonable prices, or made bespoke at a high cost of production to be borne by the client who commissioned it. Then, if the characteristics that are sought, which makes a pen special but not "because of materials or design or age", can be adequately described and specified, surely alternative solutions can be found or developed, again if the demand for something so great and "amazing" is there?
  
  Just to be clear, we're not talking about reinventing the wheel, but simply producing new units to traditional wheel specifications.
  
  If John Mottishaw can't modify any in-market nib to exhibit (as opposed to just mimic) those nib characteristics, and Santini Giovanni (or any of the master nib craftsman working for Sailor, Aurora, etc.) can't make a new nib in-house that writes the same way, then why would that be, if not because the materials cannot be reproduced today, or the design cannot be replicated (in spite of physical samples of the vintage nibs in question being accessible today), or the long ageing process has to do with how the characteristic develops?
  
  I don't go out of my way to align my tastes and preferences with whatever are mainstream with my contemporaries, but if no manufacturer is making something that was once made in the past because current market demand simply isn't there, in spite of thousands upon thousands of similar items are still being produced, I think there is most likely good reason why certain traits particular to those vintage products have fallen out of favour with buyers today.

So, if we are not talking about a specific interest in acquiring a Stradivarius violin equivalent in fountain pens as a collector or treasure hunter, but more generally in exploring and appreciating what fountain pens produced umpteen dozen years ago have to offer, then I'm just not interested.

Could I be interested in or even keen on how a particular vintage pen writes, in terms of a set of functional and qualitative requirements separate from the exemplar's vintage attribute — and thus could be replicated in one or more new pens today, as least as well even if not improved upon, such that there is then no loss to fountain pen users if that vintage pen was lost, destroyed or simply deprecated? Sure.

Again, just to be clear, I'm not advocating getting rid of vintage pens — in the way some groups in history wanted to burn (certain) books — but simply to allow users who may fancy those writing characteristics to get what they want from new pens, and let the interest in (preserving and using) vintage pens just die out naturally in the user community except for history buffs, museum curators, moneyed private collectors and so on. It makes no sense to me for us to encourage Joe Consumer or Jane User to take a special interest in a category of items that are increasingly limited in numbers because production has long ceased (but natural attrition continues), when the utility and primary value ("not because of materials or design or age") can be achieved through something else we can produce, even if the substitution can be thought of as eroding the interest in (and consequently, "funding" for) keeping the out-of-production category of items in the market and somewhat accessible.

...

Does anyone else want to share their views and reasons for their disinterest, even though doing so will most likely invite backlash?

 

 

Edit: fixed a couple of typos

Edited March 11, 2020 by A Smug Dill

[Addertooth]

A Smug Dill,

 

I wish all your points were true. There are some nibs of novel design, which are too expensive to make today. Their like will never be seen again, due to cost. As far as cost goes, I can pick up a vintage pen with a gold nib, for far less than a new pen with a gold nib. Not all vintage pens draw a premium price.

 

I do undertand about wanting a new product. I also understand that history or heretage are not important factors to everyone. Those who feel a special link with the passage of time, and history, will likely crave something which has waded through the shallows of time. Those who want something with a warranty, will gladly cast off the trappings of legacy, for a solid pen which has available service.

 

Like so many here, we realize we are a collection of collections, when it comes to our tastes. A virtual plethora of tastes, vices, and virtures when it comes to our choices. I wish you the best in your pursuit.

 

Addertooth

[inkstainedruth]

I have new pens, and I have vintage pens and I have pens in-between, ranging from a 1926 Parker Lucky Curve ringtop to last fall's Pelikan M600 Violet and White. If you don't like vintage pens that is certainly your perogative -- and as far as I'm concerned, that means one less person who might be vying for some vintage pen I'm scoping out on eBay....

The nice thing about this hobby is that there is something out there for everyone. There are pens (and inks) that I look at and go "OMG -- that's hideous!" while someone else will be going "WAAAANT! Must HAAAAVE!" And vice versa (I'm sure a lot of people look at me funny when I pull out the "Shrek Puss in Boots" Parker Vector -- but when I saw it, it just made me laugh and I had to have it ).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

ETA: Of course, they'll have to pry my Plum Demi Parker 51 from my cold dead fingers....

Edited March 11, 2020 by inkstainedruth

[TheDutchGuy]

As far as cost goes, I can pick up a vintage pen with a gold nib, for far less than a new pen with a gold nib. Not all vintage pens draw a premium price.

 

+1. I’ve paid far less for my vintage pens (on average) than for my new ones.

 

I agree with a lot of Dill’s points, by the way. I will not love a pen because it is old, or made of unobtainium, or was made by brand X. None of that matters to me. All that matters is how well it writes. And most of my vintage pens write much better than my new ones.

 

Regarding warranty etc, I buy my vintage pens mostly from reputable, established craftsmen. Never had a problem.

[OmegaMountain]

I'm intrigued by certain vintage nibs, but the issue for me is that most are in pens that use sac-based filling systems and I'm just not interested in the maintenance of a sac. I may look at a vintage Pelikan or MB some day, but that's about it.

[A Smug Dill]

-- and as far as I'm concerned, that means one less person who might be vying for some vintage pen I'm scoping out on eBay....

 

That's the spirit! Or so I'd have thought, if I haven't seen some fellow members get all shirty with others who plainly asserted that vintage pens don't interest them one bit (and, yes, it could be rephrased as vintage pens fail to attract their interest), or think relatively poorly of certain brands (with or without first-hand user experience) such that the respective manufacturers won't be capturing any of their consumer spend, etc. as if a member of one's family has been just insulted or violated. I just don't see how a peer and equal in the community not sharing one's tastes, preferences or priorities can be construed as being (a justified cause for finding) personal affront.

 

Thank you and @Addertooth both for the civil and measured replies.

[mana]

To each their own. If you do not like vintage pens or do not want to advocate them to others, be it people new or old to the hobby, don't. This is a free forum (within certain parameters) for people to *discuss* and wax poetic about their preferences in fountain pens, this including recommending or not recommending their personal choices about fountain pens, inks and whatnot to others.

Like you yourself said, we are not a heterogeneous group so in a discussion, people can have wildly different opinions about things, some more informed than the others. But when it comes to matters of taste and personal preferences, all are as equal.

That does not mean that they could not change though with new information and experiences so I think the discussion part comes into play there, people "who are in the know" are trying to impart the things they find wonderful and exciting about the things that they love and have had positive experiences with. Sometimes that is vintage pens or even a smaller niche like certain vintage pens of a certain type/make from a certain maker from a certain era (like in my case).

I do love both vintage and modern pens but overall prefer certain vintage pens for a variety of reasons that I am not going to go into in detail here. Let me just sum it up as a particular kind of a "writing experience" which is a combination of things (mostly about how the nib feels and behaves), some which I can name and some which I can not. I am sure that there might exist a modern pen that could offer, out of the box and without modifications, a comparatively as satisfying "writing experience" but most likely it will be a different one as it has been with most pens that I have tried, both vintage and modern.

[pajaro]

I have some vintage pens, pens I bought new and they became vintage. Those that I still use are good writers. The many I didn't like I might have gotten rid of, or just boxed. I enjoyed inking a new pen. There are many vintage and more current pens I didn't like and some I think are rather unsatisfactory. A lot of people praise ones I think are less than satisfactory. To each his own.

 

I understand wantting new pens. That was me in the 60s, 70s and 80s, and I bought a new Parker 51, new Sheaffer Imperials and new Montblanc 144s. Now they are vintage, but they were new to me, and I use mainly these. Well, the passage of time has its effect. I am 71. I have some newer pens, Parkers, Pelikans watermans, etc. Some low cost Chinese as well. Nowadays I have bought some used as well to keep cost down. I still mostly use my old pens bought new. There is something special about pens only I have used.

[max dog]

Your points you make seem to refer more to your own philosophical point of view that you extend to your fountain pen hobby.

"...but simply for everyone else to be living in the present and/or forward-looking..."

 

I would agree with that philosophy but would add, when you have something truly remarkable that lasts and can outperform modern designs, it earns it's worth over time, and that is it's inherent value. Some people like vintage because of that, and some are unable to appreciate that. To each their own.

 

Certain vintage pens like the Parker 51, although it can be replicated today, no one really has in my opinion come out with a modern pen designed as well as it. The aerometric sac for one thing has proven indestructible and will probably out last any filling system produced today. The collector feed is remarkable too to prevent nib dry out. There are no moving parts, and materials are top notch such that there are many examples around today that may last another 60 years.

 

No one has developed a modern factory flex nib that can match vintage flex nibs. For example, the Waterman's Ideal flex nibs with spoon feed system. The latest MB Calligraphy flex comes close though.

Edited March 11, 2020 by max dog

[KBeezie]

Far as "Shiny" (but not new)... Antique Store Find... cheaper than a brand new Lamy Safari, fixed up and writing rather well with an almost Sailor 14K feedback.

 

I mean, it's a 1937 pen... but doesn't mean it has to look beat to hell, nor does it perform any less than the moderns (though I can definitely see the appeal of cartridge/converters)

 

 

I feel like that in a lot of cases, if trying to be frugal, there's quite a few vintage options that you get a nice 14K nib with, and you're not even paying as much as a TWSBI (and some of the vintage piston fillers hold more than most the modern ones).

 

So there's a few practical reason for me, especially in seeming to find them cheaper than the modern counterparts, yet not really major drawback for me.

 

Another comparison, I much prefer my Montblanc 14 from 1960s with an 18C EF to the Montblanc 149 with a 14K EF (from the early 90s), both put down virtually identical line and wetness to paper, but the 14 just feels better in the nib and body, and despite being smaller, holds more ink.

 

I find that a lot of the modern companies aren't even really innovating anymore, everything is just spit out from many of them, some are almost sheer purchased on status. And when someone is still seeking out new pens... sometimes the vintages are the new frontier for them, since why should it be considered any different than modern competitors, when some of the vintages offer some designs, styles, feels that moderns don't provide?

Edited March 11, 2020 by KBeezie

[DonM]

As usual, Dill like to stir things up. I'll play.

 

I'm not a fan of vintage anything - cars, watches, pens, etc. But that does not mean that I have a problem with anyone who does. I have a couple of vintage Parkers, 1940 and earlier, but I keep meaning to sell them off since I never use them. I'm a user and not a collector, so just owning something doesn't do it for me.

 

My interest in fountain pens is about the entire user experience. I am interested in how the nib writes, how the pen feels in the hand, the esthetics of the materials and the design. Has little to do with how old the pen is. And I really don't care for or chase after flex nibs.

 

So, much of my aversion to vintage pens is due to their size. I simply prefer larger pens. I have a Parker 75 that is a fabulous pen, but is simply too small for me to use regularly. But then again, I'll never sell that one because it is the first really nice pen I ever bought.

[KBeezie]

Another thing to consider about the longevity.

 

A lot of the vintages that did survive, did so because they had some degree of quality to their construction. The cheapies of the past didn't survive like many of the lower quality bulk-produced materials won't from today.

 

Take TWSBI for example, with how often they have to send out replacement parts... how long is a TWSBI Vac 700 going to last when the parent company disappears? Versus a Parker 45 that literally sat in a drawer for 50 years inked to hell, and just needs a little flushing if you find one, and pop in a new Parker cart and good to go.

[A Smug Dill]

And when someone is still seeking out new pens... sometimes the vintages are the new frontier for them, since why should it be considered any different than modern competitors, when some of the vintages offer some designs, styles, feels that moderns don't provide?

 

 

I thought I addressed my view of that upfront, which is that I could indeed be interested in a new, never-inked, 'virgin' fountain pen not dulled or tarnished by age or use, but given the rarity (that I expect) of such items and the level of competitive demand for them, I don't expect they'd be easy for me to acquire. It'd take looking everywhere, keeping an eye out always, and then being prepared to outbid other prospective buyers, and so I think it's easier to buy a brand new modern pen that offers the same level of personal reward/benefit.

 

Your points you make seem to refer more to your own philosophical point of view that you extend to your fountain pen hobby.

 

Indeed. After all, @TheDutchGuy asked me why I am not interested in vintage pens. I started a new thread in which to offer him my reply, so as not to derail the other discussion thread (which you started, incidentally).

[KBeezie]

...

 

So, much of my aversion to vintage pens is due to their size. I simply prefer larger pens. I have a Parker 75 that is a fabulous pen, but is simply too small for me to use regularly. But then again, I'll never sell that one because it is the first really nice pen I ever bought.

 

And that's an extremely practical reason, especially when you consider the huge markup for anything "Oversized" before the 50s.

 

I tend to not like anything tiny, but I at least don't mind it as much as long as the pen is long enough. Like my Conklin Crescent Filler 20CNL and Waterman 55... usually I wouldn't even consider something as old as a BCHR/HR pen... but they got the length and/or size. But you're right though for the most part, before the 70s, large or long pens weren't so common or popular, and anything you can get that is large typically after the 50s is going to be just as pricey/collectible as the OS pens from before then.

[KBeezie]

 

I thought I addressed my view of that upfront, which is that I could indeed be interested in a new, never-inked, 'virgin' fountain pen not dulled or tarnished by age or use, but given the rarity (that I expect) of such items and the level of competitive demand for them, I don't expect they'd be easy for me to acquire. It'd take looking everywhere, keeping an eye out always, and then being prepared to outbid other prospective buyers, and so I think it's easier to buy a brand new modern pen that offers the same level of personal reward/benefit.

 

It's actually not that hard... You seem to be making it hard at least in your mind. And the limitation of needing something 'virgin' is a self imposed limitation that borders irrationality that really isn't going to make the pen any better realistically speaking. But everyone has their personal preference, it's just a bit confounding when you seem to want to demand something that meets your every need, but you won't go near it because it isn't pristine and unused before you had your hand on it. Because who knows... maybe the manufacture came up with something you wanted all along, but you won't touch it because even new-old-stock, would need some maintenance before first use.

[ethernautrix]

Answering before reading any of these posts:

 

While I love a vintage nib (which can be transplanted into a modern pen) and some designs (Wahl-Eversharp Art Deco models come to mind -- if it's Wahl-Eversharp. Coronet?), I don't like pens with sacs. Full stop.

 

That's my deal-breaker.

[A Smug Dill]

Another thing to consider about the longevity.

_...‹snip›...

Take TWSBI for example, with how often they have to send out replacement parts...

 

I haven't bought a TWSBI pen yet. Actually, I placed an order for one in January, but cancelled the order before it was shipped, precisely because the reviews and comments online about TWSBI's quality control and product reliability/longevity that I quickly changed my mind, in spite of the apparent very good price on offer.

 

it's just a bit confounding when you seem to want to demand something that meets your every need, but you won't go near it because it isn't pristine and unused before you had your hand on it.

 

I don't think demanding or expecting something that meets my every need is the reason why I bought well in excess of 200 fountain pens, ranging from ~$1 to over $1,000, and am still buying. (I just ordered two ASA pens last week, even though I have never used or seen an ASA pen in person, and I'm not expecting them to be the equal of my prized Pilot 'Hannya Shingyo' or any number of my favoured Sailor and Aurora pens.)

 

And I did knowingly buy one used Platinum pocket fountain pen that was made in the 1970s(?) a few months ago, just to see how it compares with the modern Pilot Elite 95S which I love. The Platinum pen is fine, its gold nib perfectly usable, but it does not outperform my Pilot E95S and the "only" advantage (from my perspective) that the former offers is that it was cheaper than a new E95S. My wife now has that Platinum pen (as well as a Pilot E95S of her own, because I couldn't bear to part with mine after she "accepted" my first one).

Edited March 11, 2020 by A Smug Dill

[KBeezie]

And I did knowingly buy one used Platinum pocket fountain pen that was made in the 1970s(?) a few months ago, just to see how it compares with the modern Pilot Elite 95S which I love. The Platinum pen is fine, its gold nib perfectly usable, but it does not outperform my Pilot E95S and the "only" advantage (from my perspective) that the former offers is that it was cheaper than a new E95S. My wife now has that Platinum pen (as well as a Pilot E95S of her own, because I couldn't bear to part with mine after she "accepted" my first one).

Should have gotten an 18K Pilot Elite of the 70s if you really wanted to do a fair comparison. Especially one with the "Soft" nib. I found most of the 70s Platinum pocket pens to be a tad on the dry and fine side typically (a bit of a different feed structure to the Elites)

 

http://static.karlblessing.com/pens/pilotelitemini/nib_top.jpg

 

Just sayin...

 

And pretty sure my 1964 Pilot Super 250 would run circles around the E95 (despite not being a c/c pen)

Edited March 11, 2020 by KBeezie

[Estycollector]

 

 

I thought I addressed my view of that upfront, which is that I could indeed be interested in a new, never-inked, 'virgin' fountain pen not dulled or tarnished by age or use, but given the rarity (that I expect) of such items and the level of competitive demand for them, I don't expect they'd be easy for me to acquire. It'd take looking everywhere, keeping an eye out always, and then being prepared to outbid other prospective buyers, and so I think it's easier to buy a brand new modern pen that offers the same level of personal reward/benefit.

 

 

Indeed. After all, @TheDutchGuy asked me why I am not interested in vintage pens. I started a new thread in which to offer him my reply, so as not to derail the other discussion thread (which you started, incidentally).

 

 

 

 

I agree finding the good ones takes time. It also takes a knowledge/education. It is this research and then the restoration that I find bonds me to the pen. I understand this is not for everyone, but it has been a sense of great enjoyment to carry and use pens from the 1930's when FP's where the BIC Crystal of the day. While I enjoy the Lamy Al-Star, it will never provide the same enjoyment as the '32 Esterbrook Dollar with a flat feed 3558 nib.

Here was a find, an unused mid '50's Parker 21 which cost $35.

 

Edited March 11, 2020 by Estycollector

[MGLX]

Why not turn the whole idea around?

 

Why should one buy a product that hasn't been innovated for like 60-80 years brand new made in 2020?

 

Sure, shiny new materials for barrels and special editions, but does the new pen have a better filling mechanism? Does it have a better nib? Does it have better QC, more nib options?

I read everywhere about flow issues, inconsistent nib quality, cracks in plastics after short periods of usage.

 

Wear is probably something to consider, but I can't see why specs should be a problem otherwise. If anything I can't understand why people aren't more into vintage pens or at least salvage the nibs.

 

I'm not trying to offend someone. I can understand that someone is more happy to buy something untouched, but just food for thought or at least a question of a rookie, trying to get by in the vast world of fountain pens.

Edited March 11, 2020 by MGLX