Beginners, Beginner Questions, And Personal Responsibility

[silverlifter]

I have a foot in both camps. I do want to encourage people new to fountain pens (or new to the online world of them, like me) to be able to interact with older hands.

 

However, I would be loathe to think that all of these fora would devolve into reddit clones where there is an endless scroll of the same questions, and answers:

 

• What is the best black ink?
• What is your grail?
• Why is their ink on my nib?
• What is the best entry level pen?
• What is the best next level pen?
• Tell me what to buy next.

[sansenri]

ASD always surprises me as to how deep he can go into matters...

not a negative thing, by all means, just look at the feedback he stirs, thought for the mind

I'm relatively more straightforward thinking

learning anything is a trial and error process, learning alone is long and complex and can be frustrating, learning through guidance and advice is no doubt easier and faster

then it all depends on the teachers... granted... but I still prefer to have an imperfect teacher than none at all

(several - all? - of my teachers were imperfect, I still managed to learn something from them)

and then even opinions can help you to learn, and distinguish one opinion from another

(ever discussed girls with your friends? does anyone have "the" right answer?)

does not matter what is best

what is best for you is what matters and that for someone is already a very good answer indeed

Edited March 3, 2020 by sansenri

[Estycollector]

 

I have a foot in both camps. I do want to encourage people new to fountain pens (or new to the online world of them, like me) to be able to interact with older hands.

 

However, I would be loathe to think that all of these fora would devolve into reddit clones where there is an endless scroll of the same questions, and answers:

 

• What is the best black ink?
• What is your grail?
• Why is their ink on my nib?
• What is the best entry level pen?
• What is the best next level pen?
• Tell me what to buy next.

 

 

The best black ink is Waterman

MB149....I thought everybody already understood....LOL!!

Because that where it's supposed to be

Lamy Safari with medium nib

Lamy Al Star with EF nib

Parker 51 Vacumatic

 

Sorry!! I could not resist...LOL!!

[TSherbs]

Who cares? It's a conversation on an internet forum with hundreds of threads. Sometimes it's interesting, sometimes it's not.

[Estycollector]

Many of us do care. I do.

[TSherbs]

Many of us do care. I do.

To me this is like getting worked up about being asked at a diner counter by a stranger next to you what's the best dessert. You can either be bothered by the question or not. I chose the "not" and I don't understand the benefit to anyone of the other choice. I know that people DO get bothered. I just don't see why anyone would choose that. If you don't want to be asked about the desserts, then don't eat at the counter. It's easy to walk away from the threads that aren't interesting or rewarding. Just. Walk. Away. Who cares (to be bothered) when it is so easy to ignore and let things be answered by those who don't mind?

[Erik Dalton]

To me this is like getting worked up about being asked at a diner counter by a stranger next to you what's the best dessert. You can either be bothered by the question or not. I chose the "not" and I don't understand the benefit to anyone of the other choice. I know that people DO get bothered. I just don't see why anyone would choose that. If you don't want to be asked about the desserts, then don't eat at the counter. It's easy to walk away from the threads that aren't interesting or rewarding. Just. Walk. Away. Who cares (to be bothered) when it is so easy to ignore and let things be answered by those who don't mind?

 

Wow.. well said.

[A Smug Dill]

To me this is like getting worked up about being asked at a diner counter by a stranger next to you what's the best dessert._...‹snip›... Just. Walk. Away. Who cares (to be bothered) when it is so easy to ignore and let things be answered by those who don't mind?

Sigh.

 

I don't mind getting asked what's best for me, not that I think the information is necessarily of value or utility to anyone else.

 

I don't mind getting asked for pointers by others as to where they ought to be or could be looking more closely in discovering what's best for them.

 

Circle back to the quote in my initial post. The rhetorical question was asked as to where beginner questions can be put if not in a fountain pen user forum. I'm saying that questions that amount to, "What's best for me?", "Will this work for me?" or, "Will I enjoy it?" cannot be meaningfully answered by anyone else, and ought not be expected to be answered without first-hand experience (acquired at his/her expense) by the person asking the question, and it's up to more "experienced" users to tell others it takes actual experience to know for oneself.

 

Expressly asking for available, unfiltered information (because one doesn't know where to begin to look) is great, and I strongly encourage that.

 

Tacitly asking and/or expecting others more experience to apply analysis considering one's own requirements and preferences, when the only benefit is to reduce cost and effort for oneself, is what I find disagreeable — in which case my "guidance" is either, "Here are a handful of N candidates that sorta fit the criteria, so try them all for yourself," or, "This is one candidate that fits the criteria I can suggest to add to the mix, but I don't purport it to be the best option available to you, nor do I care whether you can do better." In both cases, I'd have already added value drawn from my experience and/or knowledge in narrowing the field, without delivering the desired/optimal outcome on a platter at the least cost to the individual.

 

That's the very nub of it: I'm advocating helping others by taking them partway (thus adding value), and leave them complete the journey on their own at some accompanying cost and risk of their own, so that they'll have more value to add to others who come after them into the community, when such questions are asked in a fountain pen user forum (as opposed to a paid/commissioned consultant who can be reasonably expected to take the client's requirements and preferences into careful consideration).

 

Does anyone here care to tell me why or how that doesn't benefit "everyone", i.e. the collective, including whoever is asking the beginner questions, more than allowing fora such as FPN, FPGeeks and reddit to become "expert system" information services to those with no commitment (because no commitment is required) to give back?

 

Just to be clear, I'll reiterate: I'm not suggesting we tell beginner users absolutely nothing, which seems to be what some of you are suggesting, if I find their attempts to crowdsource "full service" in decision-making and optimal purchasing disagreeable. I'm telling them something: that the only meaningful answers come from first-hand experience (which I genuinely believe to be true, to questions of, "What's best?" and, "Will it work for me?"), and some pointers to narrow the field somewhat but without singling out a (guaranteed or purported) optimal solution.

Edited March 4, 2020 by A Smug Dill

[Shaggy]

To me this is like getting worked up about being asked at a diner counter by a stranger next to you what's the best dessert. You can either be bothered by the question or not. I chose the "not" and I don't understand the benefit to anyone of the other choice. I know that people DO get bothered. I just don't see why anyone would choose that. If you don't want to be asked about the desserts, then don't eat at the counter. It's easy to walk away from the threads that aren't interesting or rewarding. Just. Walk. Away. Who cares (to be bothered) when it is so easy to ignore and let things be answered by those who don't mind?

 

Yup.

 

And if one does get bothered, why be a dog in the manger and post snarky remarks on a beginner's thread? I've seen it happen multiple times. Just walk away, Renee! (dating myself with an old pop song reference)

[TSherbs]

Dill, you have stated this same point many times, even adamantly. You seem pained at times by the reaching out that others do. Whether they seem logically wise to you or not, or in synch with your thinking or not, perhaps you might just pass over the thread. Or just leave a personal impression and move on. Let the readers decide how to use the info, even if it is radically different from how you would value it. You write so much sometimes; like a release of the energy of cognitive dissonance. Again, why struggle with this?

Edited March 4, 2020 by TSherbs

[A Smug Dill]

Again, why struggle with this?

 

Because, strangely enough, I care — more keenly than I'd rationally want to — about the fountain pen hobbyist community/collective to want to grow more of a culture of ongoing learning (through research, discovery and experimentation) and contribution by the individuals therein.

 

In much the same way as to which I alluded before, I cannot expect to keep the market buoyant and industry thriving with my budget for discretionary spending alone, so I look to "seed" spending and influence other consumers; and so I want to see more peers in the community gain experience (at their personal expense) and come back to share their insights, when doing the odd ink review, posting the odd comparison of nibs, or organising the odd ink sampler giveaway is not enough.

Edited March 4, 2020 by A Smug Dill

[TSherbs]

 

Because, strangely enough, I care more keenly than I'd rationally want to about the fountain pen hobbyist community/collective to want to grow more of a culture of ongoing learning (through research, discovery and experimentation) and contribution by the individuals therein...

 

All we can do is till the soil in our own gardens. The "community" to which you refer seems to me a giant amorphous blob of kaleidoscopic and contradictory needs and wants and points of view. And FPN is only one pseudopod of the beast. Edited March 4, 2020 by TSherbs

[DrDebG]

 

Because, strangely enough, I care — more keenly than I'd rationally want to — about the fountain pen hobbyist community/collective to want to grow more of a culture of ongoing learning (through research, discovery and experimentation) and contribution by the individuals therein.

 

THERE IT IS! This is your motivation!

 

I applaud you for elucidating this so succinctly! You care! Please do not ever give that up! That is why you are so essential here!

 

Oh, please do not think that I mock you in anyway. You care. And, yes, many of us here care as well.

 

We want the same thing. Yet, for some, it means giving every ounce of knowledge we have. Yet, for others, it means leading others, sometimes bit by bit, to self-understanding.

 

These are just different philosophies of imparting knowledge.

Edited March 4, 2020 by 5Cavaliers

[sansenri]

Sigh.

 

I don't mind getting asked what's best for me, not that I think the information is necessarily of value or utility to anyone else.

 

I don't mind getting asked for pointers by others as to where they ought to be or could be looking more closely in discovering what's best for them.

 

Circle back to the quote in my initial post. The rhetorical question was asked as to where beginner questions can be put if not in a fountain pen user forum. I'm saying that questions that amount to, "What's best for me?", "Will this work for me?" or, "Will I enjoy it?" cannot be meaningfully answered by anyone else, and ought not be expected to be answered without first-hand experience (acquired at his/her expense) by the person asking the question, and it's up to more "experienced" users to tell others it takes actual experience to know for oneself.

 

Expressly asking for available, unfiltered information (because one doesn't know where to begin to look) is great, and I strongly encourage that.

 

Tacitly asking and/or expecting others more experience to apply analysis considering one's own requirements and preferences, when the only benefit is to reduce cost and effort for oneself, is what I find disagreeable — in which case my "guidance" is either, "Here are a handful of N candidates that sorta fit the criteria, so try them all for yourself," or, "This is one candidate that fits the criteria I can suggest to add to the mix, but I don't purport it to be the best option available to you, nor do I care whether you can do better." In both cases, I'd have already added value drawn from my experience and/or knowledge in narrowing the field, without delivering the desired/optimal outcome on a platter at the least cost to the individual.

 

That's the very nub of it: I'm advocating helping others by taking them partway (thus adding value), and leave them complete the journey on their own at some accompanying cost and risk of their own, so that they'll have more value to add to others who come after them into the community, when such questions are asked in a fountain pen user forum (as opposed to a paid/commissioned consultant who can be reasonably expected to take the client's requirements and preferences into careful consideration).

 

Does anyone here care to tell me why or how that doesn't benefit "everyone", i.e. the collective, including whoever is asking the beginner questions, more than allowing fora such as FPN, FPGeeks and reddit to become "expert system" information services to those with no commitment (because no commitment is required) to give back?

 

Just to be clear, I'll reiterate: I'm not suggesting we tell beginner users absolutely nothing, which seems to be what some of you are suggesting, if I find their attempts to crowdsource "full service" in decision-making and optimal purchasing disagreeable. I'm telling them something: that the only meaningful answers come from first-hand experience (which I genuinely believe to be true, to questions of, "What's best?" and, "Will it work for me?"), and some pointers to narrow the field somewhat but without singling out a (guaranteed or purported) optimal solution.

But perhaps your interpretation is possibly too strict...

Of course when they (we) ask you what's best, they (we) want to know what's best for you!

(and even a beginner is smart enough to know your answer will not be the bible...)

[sirgilbert357]

To me this is like getting worked up about being asked at a diner counter by a stranger next to you what's the best dessert. You can either be bothered by the question or not. I chose the "not" and I don't understand the benefit to anyone of the other choice. I know that people DO get bothered. I just don't see why anyone would choose that. If you don't want to be asked about the desserts, then don't eat at the counter. It's easy to walk away from the threads that aren't interesting or rewarding. Just. Walk. Away. Who cares (to be bothered) when it is so easy to ignore and let things be answered by those who don't mind?

 

 

A very good point. I have walked away from MANY threads. I read far, far more threads than my post count would indicate.

[Karmachanic]

I read far, far more threads than my post count would indicate.

 

Moi aussi. Quite often topics that don't interest me, but nonetheless add to my FP education and wisdom.

Edited March 4, 2020 by Karmachanic

[Sailor Kenshin]

 

Yup.

 

And if one does get bothered, why be a dog in the manger and post snarky remarks on a beginner's thread? I've seen it happen multiple times. Just walk away, Renee! (dating myself with an old pop song reference)

You won't see me follow you back home...

 

 

Love 💕 that song!

[sandy101]

That's the very nub of it: I'm advocating helping others by taking them partway (thus adding value), and leave them complete the journey on their own at some accompanying cost and risk of their own, so that they'll have more value to add to others

 

No, I'm not interested. There is no enlightenment that comes through thte purchase of a fountain pen, and to say that one has to go through a process of self discovery to achieve something more valuable in th purchase of a pen - no.

 

The danger is you turn the hobby into a clique where people give unecessarily cryptic answers to questions, and it turns people off. "We know more than you do, but we're not going to tell you what we know, because you've got to find the answers yourself."

 

How do you judge which questions are worthy of an answer - and which are not? In addition, English isn't always someone's first language, and being able to ask finessed questions needs a sophisticated level of language skills - which people may not possess due to age, or language skills. You are in danger of excluding people because they cannot engage at the level that you want them to. It's makes things more complicated than they need to be.

 

If you find questions on a forum disagreeable to you, then don't nswer them, and let someone else in the forum lend a hand if they so desire. If we have to poiice what answers we give to incaulcate some culture of self-discovery, then that sounds too much like work to me.

[A Smug Dill]

The danger is you turn the hobby into a clique where people give unecessarily cryptic answers to questions, and it turns people off. "We know more than you do, but we're not going to tell you what we know, because you've got to find the answers yourself."

I'm advocating giving answers that are not tailored to the individual's requirements and preferences. Platinum Carbon Black ink is waterproof. Lamy 2000 EF nibs typically write more broadly than Lamy's steel EF nibs, and Sailor's EF nibs are finer. That's factual and/or statistical information, as close to being objective as we can reasonably try to give.

 

Which will "you" like better? Will a particular nib work for "your" particular technique and habits? Work that out "yourself". We can't tell "you" and don't presume to tell "you", but it's ultimately to "your" benefit to discover it.

 

How do you judge which questions are worthy of an answer - and which are not?

I try to answer even questions that I find disagreeable — sometimes in a manner that I suspect the asker of the question will find disagreeable, by intentionally not catering to their particular viewpoint or narrative, but talk in general/"objective" terms, without being cryptic or misleading.

[sandy101]

I have no interest in limiting myself to being "reasonably objective". I don't see the purpose or the fun in it.

 

 

You can present a scientific/objective viewpoint, if you so wish, but I don't want to adopt the approach you are advocating for myself. In my opinion, it will turn more people off, rather than encourage them.