Beginners, Beginner Questions, And Personal Responsibility

[A Smug Dill]

I agree with Smug Dill's comment that "Some people... here keep asking questions that ultimately comes to subjective experiences they haven't had yet". That certainly does include me so don't worry about singling me out! But ultimately this is a fountain pen forum and, although you may get irritated by the beginner questions, if we can't come here to ask them then where else can we go?!

 

I think it's great that people come here to seek guidance and answers from fellow hobbyists. We all have things that we don't already know about, whether the extent of one's individual engagement in the hobby is five days, five months or five decades, especially in an ever-changing world. "Beginner questions" don't irritate me, when pointers to what next to study and/or experiment with "on the journey" are sought, with recognition that one has to make one's own share of mistakes and missteps along the way, and the cost of such is both essential to learning and one's own to bear.

 

I think that's a fair comment, most of us have been in the same position initially (certainly I know I have), and even when subjective questions are asked it's always because we hope and know there is bound to be someone who has almost our same preferences and can give us guidance and advice!

 

In my way of thinking, beginners are literally such because they're just starting out in a hobby, pursuit or discipline, and therefore:

• by definition lacking subjective and practical experience — which is not something that can be either acquired or compensated for by peers' answers and anecdotes; nor can one's depth of experience be reasonably expected to accumulate completely absent trial-and-error, failures and disappointments
• likely short on textbook knowledge and/or prior exposure to information — and that is where others can contribute by offering tidbits or (collectively) heaps of information to slowly digest, and pointers to where the beginner can (spend hours, days or weeks) to look next for research or study
• not necessarily short on funds for discretionary spending — and so there is no inherent premise or requirement for prioritising limiting their expenditure (e.g. equating "beginner pens" with cheap pens, or favouring inks that are cheaper per millilitre and/or more readily available "locally") or risk, over encouraging discovery and experimentation across a broader scope of possibilities

However, questions that amount to, "How will [something] be in my actual experience, subject to my (finite) capability and preferences?" cannot be answered except by doing, and that doing often comes at some personal cost in time, effort, resources and funds that are up to the individual to assess and for which to budget. We can't give you experience without your arranging physical access to certain pens, inks and/or types of paper in question; even when we pass pens and inks around so people can try this or that (and keep if they wish), or give away samples in a rather more targeted manner, it's still up to someone to fill a pen and write with it without being guaranteed a successful or satisfactory outcome (e.g. will exhibit sheen but not feathering on the type of paper he/she has to use, without staining the ink window on the pen he/she prefers to use), consume sheets of paper or "deface" pages in a journal that is in active use (if a separate book of the same type dedicated to testing is not kept), and deal with the clean-up afterwards.

 

What we shouldn't be expected to offer is a direct path to the desired outcome most quickly at least cost and no risk to an individual, and it's not up to us to guarantee or provide satisfaction to fellow users out of charity. It's not only beginners who don't enjoy making mistakes and don't fancy paying more than the absolute minimum to achieve solutions to "problems" and fulfilment of wants, but the individual's appetite for risk and preparedness to spend time and money are his/her own to manage, and not for others to worry about or work around.

 

The attempts to delegate the (analysis and) management of one's concerns, and crowdsource protection (including cost minimisation) and satisfaction for oneself from "the community" are what I find disagreeable; and I don't understand why some "more experienced" members are prepared to entertain such things cheerfully, instead of guiding askers of such "questions" — whether they're actual beginners or not — to take more personal responsibility, accumulate more individual experience at one's own expense, and then contribute the emergent insights to the trove and wealth of information, from which others in the community will benefit at an individual level (commensurately with one's skill and personal investment in research and analysis) as well as collectively.

[Addertooth]

Every forum I have ever been involved with, has a "standard collection" of novice questions.

 

On the BBQ forums... how long and what temperature to cook Brisket/Ribs/Pulled-Pork.

On Harley forums... Do loud pipes save lives? What is the best Carb for this bike.

On Lotus Forums.. How do I improve track times? What is the best tire?

Etc,,,

 

Such things are unavoidable. The only advantage I have is a sense of awareness of this pattern. There will always be newbie questions in every forum. On forums where I had heavy involvement, I had saved "Word Documents" which had canned answers to the 20 most common newbie questions. Each of the answers were detailed, and not simply a quip. When the standard question came up, a quick cut and paste, and it was answered in detail. The newbie would normally thank me for such a detailed response (the old timers would chuckle, as they had seen that exact dissertation before).

 

I feel the need to be polite and helpful; I have been in their shoes before and have the smallest measure of empathy. The newbies are a lot like our awkward children. They are likely going to be the ones purchasing our collections some day. Might as well raise them right.

[Estycollector]

Regardless of the hobby or vocation, there is a frustration with beginning. What back pack do I need...bicycle is best for commuting, best camp stove, kayak is easiest to roll, best violin/guitar teacher, yada yada yada.

 

The internet provides me with a resource that would take years to find out otherwise.

 

I figure that I need to pay back those who have helped me. So, if you are so impatient that you cannot help another, it might be best if you don't reply.

Edited March 3, 2020 by Estycollector

[A Smug Dill]

I have been in their shoes before and have the smallest measure of empathy.

So, if you are so impatient that you cannot help another, it might be best if you don't reply.

But that's the thing: I can remember when I was a beginner, in all sorts of pursuits — so that's the empathy part, in that I can relate to the state of mind — but also understand now that discomfort, disappointments and avoidable "wasted" expenses are all part of the journey to become "experienced" or even insightful.

 

Minimising the costs, risks and frustrations for the individual is not the sort of fundamental premise of helping others become more seasoned and knowledgeable members of the community, who will then in a better position to help others yet to come, in my opinion. Sorry, but even with the best of intentions, those who are directly successful in achieving what they want — without learning through missteps, mistakes and setbacks — are hardly going to be the most "helpful" to others in that they don't have any retrospective insights arising from failures and regrets to share.

 

One of my favourite sayings is, "Experience is what you get when you don't get what you wanted." Yes, I understand that success and enjoyment are also experiences, and that saying is more of an adage than an axiom. Nevertheless, steering or shielding the individual beginner from accumulating negative experiences in the pursuit of whatever they want (which can change over time) is not my idea of what being helpful to the community is all about.

[Parker51]

I have no problem with providing information I know, nor in giving my opinions.

What I will not do is give people exact answers to complex questions and will remind the questioners that it they are complex question and ask them for more detailed questions so they can start thinking about what they really need to know and how to get it.

So, no answers to what is the best Fountain Pen, Ink or Fountain Pen friendly paper questions as there are too many variables for me to give an answer.

Nor, the nebulas questions of how much is this pen worth, unless the person is presenting why they are looking at selling the item and then a responce only some time. Yes, it is a personal judgement of mine regarding this, but it is my time and so I sympathize with those who are selling off a deceased loved ones collection, or someone selling due to poor health, but no information to those who can and should do the research themselves, especially when it is clear the person is not a pen aficionado, but is instead just wants to make a quick profit and in particular wants to profit from others knowledge without any reciprocity. The difference between them and a thief is only a threat as their only goal is to take. Yep, I am one of those judgemental (expletive) who does not freely give to all irrespective of what their circumstances are simply because I am asked.

[sandy101]

You seem to have the idea that the fountain pen enthusiasm has to be expensive and involves a long and difficult road and accumulating a large amount of knowledge through trial and error.

 

Why? I want that looks nice, feels comfortable and writes well. I want the pen to get out of the way, and let me get whatever is in my head onto the page without any fuss.

 

The idea that you start with an cheap pen, and then build towards a grail pen that costs lots of money - is not one I subscribe to. If you want to start (and finish) with a fancy "grail" pen, don't buy ten cheaper pens to "build up to it". Go to a shop, try your grail pen - and the nib sizes they have - and if it suits you buy it. Then use it for a month, six months a year - before you consider buying another. You'll save money in the long run.

 

We can help by sharing experience and reduce cost.

 

I have yet to see a fountain pen that comes with a decent set of instructions. None of them say flush the pen as it might contain gunk that impedes ink flow, none of them say use for a couple of weeks to ensure it "beds in" nor do they mention the fact that paper and ink selection is important. Some pens love Rhodia paper - others do not. How many pens are languishing in drawers because someone bought it online, and then put it in the drawer because it did not write well "out of the box" - when all it needs is the right paper, ink or a decent flush.

 

Just following these three four - flush, paper, ink, use (over two weeks) can produce results - and prevent someone looking for a new pen to "better" the experience of the previous one.

 

The One Pen One Month challenge - it's been going on for a couple of years now - and we've got some (anecdotal data) but what's emerged from most people's experience is that that daily use of one pen over a prolonged period of time produces positive results. It's valid for cheap pens, modern pens, "jewellery" pens and modern pens.

 

So for people new to fountain pens, and wanting to know where to start - I'd offer this advice.

 

1/ Work out your budget - don't be afraid to save a little more to increase your budget if you have a particular type of pen in mind.

2/ What do you want to do with the pen? Write letters, calligraphy, essays, look at it? This can help limit or expand your choices. Ask here - someone will be able to give you an idea of what type of pen/nib you might need for what you want to do.

3/ Buy the best pen you can buy for your budget (Best pen means trying them out in a store/pen show or visiting your local FP club or being able to see what condition the vintage pen is in before you buy it. You don't have to spend all of your budget. You want the pen that suits you best - and that may not be the most expensive).

4/ If the pen won't write well in the beginning look at rinsing it out (if possible), ink and/or paper choice and your grip.

5/ Use the pen, every day if you can, for at least two weeks. After two weeks you may find yourself writing with an entirely different (much better) pen than the one you started with.

6/ A pen case is a worthwhile investment. Never underestimate the capability of a pen to unscrew or uncap itself in a pocket. It will save the pen - and your clothes too.

7/ It isn't the amount of stuff that you have. It is what you do with them that counts. A letter or postcard written to your grandparents. lover or mother may be worth more than the pen itself.

8/ Pens tend not to appreciate in value - including (or especially) limited editions - doubly so if you use them. Unless you find yourself with the stature of Hemmingway or Shakespeare (which is a great way to increase the value of your collection) the chances are that "new" pens will not sell for as much as you paid for them.

9/ Don't be afraid to ask.

Edited March 2, 2020 by sandy101

[A Smug Dill]

You seem to have the idea that the fountain pen enthusiasm has to be expensive and involves a long and difficult road and accumulating a large amount of knowledge through trial and error.

 

Why? I want that looks nice, feels comfortable and writes well. I want the pen to get out of the way, and let me get whatever is in my head onto the page without any fuss.

Actually, no, I don't think enthusiasm — or achieving some particular narrow goal — for fountain pen use has to be costly, any more than being a karate buff, or even winning one particular fight, has to take years of hard training and copping a fair share of body blows. Becoming an experienced karate practitioner, on the other hand, will require substantial investment and most likely involve some discomfort and defeats along the way.

 

It's one thing to "teach" beginners to always keep their guard up when facing an opponent, but it isn't up to more experienced fellows to prevent learners from getting actually smacked in the face on one or more occasions when they drop their guard. If a beginner wins his first two matches — that being his immediate goal — without taking a single hit, chances are he's just awfully lucky and not because he perfected his technique. If he retires after that, having achieved his personal goal, that's of no ongoing value to "the community"; even if he stays engaged in the hobby, he doesn't have a lot to usefully share for the benefit of others to come, because luck isn't something that can be replicated or relied upon by them.

 

We can help by sharing experience and reduce cost.

When I share what I've learnt, freely and openly, I do so to give (or give back) to the community, and not just for the benefit the individual who asked or protect him/her from unnecessary expense and avoidable disappointments. I hope more people will do the same, and do it better than I can. That's why a big part of my focus has been on developing methodologies and templates: how to do certain aspects of ink testing, how to share ink samples in an economical way (so that, for the same amount of money spent on packaging and postage, there could be more sharing; and not so that the individual will spend less!), etc. The actual ink reviews I produce are my learning experiences and proof-of-concept experiments along the way.

 

I do believe that valuable (present or future) contributors to the collective "wealth" of knowledge and experience has to wear some personal cost and make their own mistakes along the way; and I'm interested in helping grow contributors, not the welfare or success of any particular faceless individual. How does it benefit the community at large to help one individual secure a specific (and subjective) desired outcome at reduced cost?

 

In my view, it's more useful to help someone narrow the candidate solutions when the field is broad, so that they can make the final analysis (with or without making mistakes) and trial as many candidates (at their cost) as they want, so that they can subsequently bring their own "unique" perspective in comparing the merits of different solutions at different price points and share with the community. Performing business analysis for him and/or handing the single best solution on a platter is of little value to anyone else.

[Erik Dalton]

Regardless of the hobby or vocation, there is a frustration with beginning. What back back do I need...bicycle is best for commuting, best camp stove, kayak is easiest to roll, best violin/guitar teacher, yada yada yada.

 

The internet provides me with a resource that would take years to find out otherwise.

 

I figure that I need to pay back those who have helped me. So, if you are so impatient that you cannot help another, it might be best if you don't reply.

I second that. Some of you seem to have forgotten your manners and lost your memories of how you got here. We are better than the Smuggess. I’ve never denied a beginner or an old hand with an odd question for that matter. We all have things we do better than others. The goal here is to share our knowledge and experience. Best to not say anything if you have nothing good to add.

[A Smug Dill]

The goal here is to share our knowledge and experience. Best to not say anything if you have nothing good to add.

 

Telling others a number of things they could try for themselves (as opposed to "find the candidate solutions yourself") is sharing knowledge, giving pointers, and adding something good — even if the expectation is that the guided experimentation is still going to cost them personally.

 

As for how I "got there", buying and trying 200+ pens and 200+ inks — after getting some pointers from reviews, discussion threads, etc. to narrow the field of candidates for purchase and experimentation — is exactly how I've come to learn what works for me and what doesn't, what I enjoy and what I don't, by first-hand experience. If someone wants to know what his/her user experience of a particular pen, nib, ink and/or paper would be like, I see nothing wrong with telling them the only way to find out is to try it first-hand, and maybe point them to where they can buy (or borrow) the products in question.

Edited March 3, 2020 by A Smug Dill

[sandy101]

I do believe that valuable (present or future) contributors to the collective "wealth" of knowledge and experience has to wear some personal cost and make their own mistakes along the way; and I'm interested in helping grow contributors, not the welfare or success of any particular faceless individual. How does it benefit the community at large to help one individual secure a specific (and subjective) desired outcome at reduced cost?

 

Totally disagree. Helping someone achieve their goal, and making it cheaper and easier for them to do so is part of what a community does. Helping people achieve their goals, brings more people into the community who can then choose their own path.

 

A pleasure shared is not halved through the sharing - it is doubled - and redoubled when shared again.

 

Look at manual typewriters. It is impossible to buy a new one in Europe - even electric ones are practically gone. People stopped buying them. You can get ribbons, and buy a 2nd hand one - but servicing, repair, spare parts? Yes, you can find it, but not easily. You've got a better chance of finding a nibmeister. Stencils, duplicators - that whole side has almost been lost to time, because the computer has made them completely redundant.

 

Helping someone buy a pen - and a bottle of ink, whether they stay to contribute or not - keeps the lifeblood of the community going . If the community were reduced to a few die hard enthusiasts - there would be no more new pens, new materials or inks.

[Estycollector]

I think Smug Dill illustrates one demographic of the community and his perspective will determine the type and quality of help he is willing and able to provide. He's paid his dues with 200 pens and ink. It's gong to be difficult to tell an interested member if she/he should get a fine or EF Lamy nib.

 

Last week I had an issue with a early Parker 51 rotary pencil. The quality of responses on this and another forum resulted in those that helped and those that didn't. The one that did was from someone with direct experience who told me exactly what to do. He did it in such as way that now I could help another with a similar question. For me, this is how education works best.

[ethernautrix]

I second that. Some of you seem to have forgotten your manners and lost your memories of how you got here. We are better than the Smuggess. Ive never denied a beginner or an old hand with an odd question for that matter. We all have things we do better than others. The goal here is to share our knowledge and experience. Best to not say anything if you have nothing good to add.

I hope that "the Smuggess" is a term of endearment and not a rude reference, which would take the wind out of your point.

 

 

 

 

Editing to add: Oops, quite a few replies since I opened this window. That'll teach me to refresh before replying. Also, leaving it, cos I haven't read those replies, and the point stands. Sometimes we think we're being polite when we're jabbing.

Edited March 3, 2020 by ethernautrix

[A Smug Dill]

Helping someone buy a pen - and a bottle of ink, whether they stay to contribute or not - keeps the lifeblood of the community going . If the community were reduced to a few die hard enthusiasts - there would be no more new pens, new materials or inks.

 

Trying to trigger more consumer spending in the marketplace for fountain pens and inks, if that's what you meant, is exactly why I do occasional ink reviews and comparisons, give away and post ink samples at my expense, actively look for opportunities to contribute to Mountain of Ink, and so on — to "help" or "enable" those who are near the threshold but needed a bit more motivation to commit to buying stuff. I'm not a retailer, I don't have shares or other business interests in any company in the industry, and there is no material reward for me in expending effort and resources for such activities. But influencing others to spend more — more than I can afford with my discretionary spending alone — and keep the market buoyant and the industry thriving is close to my heart.

Edited March 3, 2020 by A Smug Dill

[ethernautrix]

So for people new to fountain pens, and wanting to know where to start - I'd offer this advice.

 

1/ Work out your budget - don't be afraid to save a little more to increase your budget if you have a particular type of pen in mind.

2/ What do you want to do with the pen? Write letters, calligraphy, essays, look at it? This can help limit or expand your choices. Ask here - someone will be able to give you an idea of what type of pen/nib you might need for what you want to do.

3/ Buy the best pen you can buy for your budget (Best pen means trying them out in a store/pen show or visiting your local FP club or being able to see what condition the vintage pen is in before you buy it. You don't have to spend all of your budget. You want the pen that suits you best - and that may not be the most expensive).

4/ If the pen won't write well in the beginning look at rinsing it out (if possible), ink and/or paper choice and your grip.

5/ Use the pen, every day if you can, for at least two weeks. After two weeks you may find yourself writing with an entirely different (much better) pen than the one you started with.

6/ A pen case is a worthwhile investment. Never underestimate the capability of a pen to unscrew or uncap itself in a pocket. It will save the pen - and your clothes too.

7/ It isn't the amount of stuff that you have. It is what you do with them that counts. A letter or postcard written to your grandparents. lover or mother may be worth more than the pen itself.

8/ Pens tend not to appreciate in value - including (or especially) limited editions - doubly so if you use them. Unless you find yourself with the stature of Hemmingway or Shakespeare (which is a great way to increase the value of your collection) the chances are that "new" pens will not sell for as much as you paid for them.

9

/ Don't be afraid to ask.

These are good suggestions.

 

I was already a seasoned fountain pen user when I arrived at fpn, and that jumpstarted my acquisition mania. I thought that I would collect one of every fill-mechanism type. Then I learned that 1) I want to USE ALLLLL my pens, and 2) I don't like pens with sacs. And then 2a) I don't like piston-fillers if I can't screw the nib out. (I still have a Montblanc 146, though, bought in the early or mid '90s, long before I came across fpn.)

 

FPN taught me that pen repairers and nib grinders are a thing. I could have saved both myself and Parker a lot of grief over the so-called Needlepoint nib (on a modern Duofold International) if I had known about "nibmeisters."

 

I started Pen Posse (SF Bay Area) to meet other fp folks and learned much more from those who generously shared their pens and inks and papers. Being able to try other people's pens (etc.) (and they mine) really helped more than anything to hone my gotsta-haves and deal-breakers.

 

What's my point? I probably don't have one. Hah. Just... there's no ONE right way to do this. And mistakes are valuable. No, wait. Learning from our mistakes is valuable. No matter how kind and generous other people are with their opinions (and maybe even because of that), we're still going to make mistakes. Nothing trumps experience.

[A Smug Dill]

He's paid his dues with 200 pens and ink. It's gong to be difficult to tell an interested member if she/he should get a fine or EF Lamy nib.

 

The choice between those two is not mine to make. I think an interested member "should" get both and decide for himself/herself which one suits his/her use case(s) and tastes better.

 

I can point someone to what various Lamy EF nibs do in my hand (i.e. with my handwriting technique), with my ink and paper of choice, and I can point him/her to other resources such as Goulet's Nib Nook. But I'm not invested in his/her successfully making the (subjectively) better choice if he/she is only ever going to get one Lamy nib, and I don't see that goal as a contribution to the collective.

Edited March 3, 2020 by A Smug Dill

[txomsy]

Ouch!

 

I think it is simpler than that, which means it actually is most complex.

 

Simply put, there has to be all sorts of people. In a community to mix them all. It's unavoidable that someone will be faultered, flattered, feared, fared, whatever. In a sense, everyone is right as every one can do as they wish, and there is no way to know which way is better until a couple million years from now, which we won't. So, simple.

 

Where it gets complex is when we go to "everyone is right, etc...", because you have as much a right to ask (or not) as I have to answer (or not), and to abuse me, as I to retaliate, etc... Which is what makes human relationships look so complex, and why we try to simplify agreeing on conventions.

 

I understand ASmugDill point, and he's right, if we take a community as a place to get support and help each other, someone who only wants solutions but is not willing to learn or help, is somehow stealing from the good will pool of the community. OTOH, good will is -if you want it to- something that never exhausts, so nothing is truly lost. And often what starts with "just a question" ends being a path of discovery. I can also see why one would want to help any other, even if that one is not giving anything back (no need to). Personally, I am more inclined towards Parker51 view that there is no simple answer, as each one has different standards and preferences and without knowing them one may give the wrong answer or to the wrong person. On the other hand, if someone wants to give a rotund answer based on his/her own personal experience without caring for whether the recipient may have the same preferences, they're on their right, and who am I to complain. And if someone takes a wrong answer from an Internet nym just because it sounds categorical without considering his/her own preferences, that's also their privilege and a good start into what ASmugDill refers as the path of learning. Same if someone has a great day and wants to share his/her experiences and/or start a PIF. Same if someone had a bad day and need to vent their frustration. That's what a community is. It is not what a community is for, but it certainly is what a community is.

 

I could go on and on. Bottom line, we are all free, is as simple as that. And because of that it is (from my most humble, personal, subjective and crtiticable point of view) so complicated.

Edited March 3, 2020 by txomsy

[DrDebG]

IMHO, I think there is a lot of "overthinking" going on here.

 

We come to FPN to share what we learn, to ask questions, to get answers.

[Wahl]

IMHO, I think there is a lot of "overthinking" going on here.

 

We come to FPN to share what we learn, to ask questions, to get answers.

Fully agree.

 

Now from my point of view, if someone asks a specific question and I have something useful to share, I will answer.

 

But those open questions like..."What is the best...whatever...", I just pass

[Erik Dalton]

A pleasure shared is not halved through the sharing - it is doubled - and redoubled when shared again.

[sirgilbert357]

 

But those open questions like..."What is the best...whatever...", I just pass

 

 

Yes, these kinds of questions are impossible to answer. I sometimes try to point out the folly by asking a clarifying question like "What do you mean by the best...?".

 

I'm not sure my efforts are well-received, but as frustrated as someone might be reading my response, at least they have to consider how to answer it, which should lead them to realize their "what is best" question is far too vague and subjective...