Fountain Pen Ink On Paper Fading Away After Sometime

[Arkanabar]

A broad, pale line is going to be more visible than a fine, pale line, even if they are actually equally dark.

[A Smug Dill]

So, are more saturated inks (dye based only) are more resistant to fading than less saturated inks?

 

That depends on whether you're implying all else being equal, down to the type(s) of dye used in the inks in question.

 

I don't think anyone would dispute that Noodler's Baystate Blue is a highly saturated ink, yet it has been proven to be very prone to fading.

 

I have no way to measure the dye loads in either ink, but I daresay Lamy Benitoite has a lower dye load than Noodler's Baystate Blue and is therefore less saturated. Yet Lamy proudly markets Benitoite as an "document-proof" ink, which I take it to mean the ink satisfies the requirements of standards such as ISO 11798 for document use; and one aspect of the requirement of permanence is lightfastness.

 

And are thicker lines less prone to fading and become more readable in comparison to thin lines?

 

Again, are you talking about all else being equal, in this case meaning two lines of different thickness drawn (or written) with the exact same ink on the same type/piece of paper?

 

I'm going to put this to you one more time, and I'm going to bow out of this thread. If you have a requirement (or strong preference) for lightfast inks, waterproof inks, permanent inks, then seek them out specifically and acquire them. There are thousands of inks out there, many of which have been reviewed by many users and tested in many ways. If you need ten different colours for those specific applications of writing that will remain legible for a long time come rain or shine, because the content will be important to you and/or whoever you intend will be reading it, then (I'll assume) it's worthwhile to you to make the effort to identify those candidate inks through research and due diligence, colour by colour, one by one. It might take a few hours of online searching and reading per ink, and maybe even acquiring ink samples and doing some testing of your own, but the reward is peace of mind that the permanence of what you write is safeguarded.

 

Please correct me if I'm mistaken: it seems your questions are not aimed at understanding the science of what makes inks lightfast and/or permanent — a science of which I myself am ignorant — but just attempts at making ink selection requiring less effort on your part without compromising your peace of mind. That's a perfectly reasonable approach, if you're overwhelmed by the idea of how much due diligence would be required, so here's a rule of thumb to help narrow down your search space: start with inks marketed by their manufacturers as being suitable for document and/or archival use. De Atramentis has such a line of inks in different colours, as does Rohrer & Klingner. There is also Lamy Benitoite, Pelikan Fount India and 4001 Blue/Black, Montblanc Permanent Black and Permanent Blue, Sailor kiwaguro and seiboku (although the suitability for document use was only stated in Japanese, and only on the old retail packaging), and probably a few more from well-known brands. You can further pare the selection down by identifying which ones are pigment-based or iron-gall, in spite of the lightfastness and permanence claimed by their respective manufacturers, if you have reservations about using them in your pens.

 

I hope that helps.

[IndieNote]

 

That depends on whether you're implying all else being equal, down to the type(s) of dye used in the inks in question.

 

I don't think anyone would dispute that Noodler's Baystate Blue is a highly saturated ink, yet it has been proven to be very prone to fading.

 

I have no way to measure the dye loads in either ink, but I daresay Lamy Benitoite has a lower dye load than Noodler's Baystate Blue and is therefore less saturated. Yet Lamy proudly markets Benitoite as an "document-proof" ink, which I take it to mean the ink satisfies the requirements of standards such as ISO 11798 for document use; and one aspect of the requirement of permanence is lightfastness.

 

 

Again, are you talking about all else being equal, in this case meaning two lines of different thickness drawn (or written) with the exact same ink on the same type/piece of paper?

 

I'm going to put this to you one more time, and I'm going to bow out of this thread. If you have a requirement (or strong preference) for lightfast inks, waterproof inks, permanent inks, then seek them out specifically and acquire them. There are thousands of inks out there, many of which have been reviewed by many users and tested in many ways. If you need ten different colours for those specific applications of writing that will remain legible for a long time come rain or shine, because the content will be important to you and/or whoever you intend will be reading it, then (I'll assume) it's worthwhile to you to make the effort to identify those candidate inks through research and due diligence, colour by colour, one by one. It might take a few hours of online searching and reading per ink, and maybe even acquiring ink samples and doing some testing of your own, but the reward is peace of mind that the permanence of what you write is safeguarded.

 

Please correct me if I'm mistaken: it seems your questions are not aimed at understanding the science of what makes inks lightfast and/or permanent a science of which I myself am ignorant but just attempts at making ink selection requiring less effort on your part without compromising your peace of mind. That's a perfectly reasonable approach, if you're overwhelmed by the idea of how much due diligence would be required, so here's a rule of thumb to help narrow down your search space: start with inks marketed by their manufacturers as being suitable for document and/or archival use. De Atramentis has such a line of inks in different colours, as does Rohrer & Klingner. There is also Lamy Benitoite, Pelikan Fount India and 4001 Blue/Black, Montblanc Permanent Black and Permanent Blue, Sailor kiwaguro and seiboku (although the suitability for document use was only stated in Japanese, and only on the old retail packaging), and probably a few more from well-known brands. You can further pare the selection down by identifying which ones are pigment-based or iron-gall, in spite of the lightfastness and permanence claimed by their respective manufacturers, if you have reservations about using them in your pens.

 

I hope that helps.

I want to both understand the science and to know which inks are better for archivality.

Edited February 13, 2020 by IndieNote

[IndieNote]

By the way, would inks fade more if you live in a hot climate with lots of sunshine around you?

Edited February 13, 2020 by IndieNote

[txomsy]

If you use archival inks, then they should stand most adversities.

 

Climate will obviously have an effect on non-archival inks if they are openly exposed to the environment.

 

If they are in a closed notebook, or covered by other sheets, or just somehow protected... then the effect of climate will be minimal.

 

If you still wonder, just go to (goodness forbids) a museum. There is a reason they do not allow you to take pictures, even though the goods may be hundreds, or thousands of years old. Altamira or Lascaux paintings have lasted tens of thousands of years inside wet caves, and were made by just blowing ashes and powder (well, yeah, sort of).

 

You can think of it this way: for non-archival ink, no flash, thousands of years, flash, forget it.

 

Do you keep everything you write open and exposed to direct sunlight? There, you have your answers.

Edited February 13, 2020 by txomsy

[txomsy]

By the way, would inks fade more if you live in a hot climate with lots of sunshine around you?

I do live in such a climate. Extreme temperatures (-10/+45 ºC). Extreme humidity/dryness (0/100). See the picture I posted above. If 30 years of exposition to light (not direct sunlight in a window) did that, how long will it take before it becomes unreadable? I fear I will be retired and most likely dead long before.

[IndieNote]

Thank you so much guys. I really appreciate everyone's input.

[SoulSamurai]

I'd also like to note that millions of schoolchildren across Europe have been using washable blue ink for decades now and no disasters at all, no one has lost all their notes or exam papers due to spills or fading.

 

Do you have a source for this information?

[TSherbs]

Are you thinking of putting a message in a bottle or time capsule?

[Olya]

 

Do you have a source for this information?

I went to school in a European country, where it was mandatory for about 10 years to use washable blue ink. Fpens are introduced after pencils, gradually: first some work at school, then homework, then exams. From 5th grade on all notes (even maths) and all exams had to be written in washable blue. From about 7th grade on you can take your notes as you choose (ie ballpoints are allowed), but exams must be written in washable blue with fountain pens until 10th grade (after 10th grade you can write with any medium you wish, as long as it is blue or black ink; no use of pencils like in the US, not even maths, except graphs and annotations in books, but usually most used ink in books as well (our own, not the school's)).

 

That is still the standard in many European countries. How many millions is that every year in just one country?

 

This has been manadatory for decades now.

 

In all of my academic schooling I cannot recount one single incident where someone's notes vanished due to fading, or someone spilled something or some teacher or professor was so inept to lose whole papers due to spillage.

 

Nor have any of my friends or their siblings or their friends had any horror stories to tell (or their parents for that matter, or even further reaching, I don't remember ever reading any such horror stories and I am certainly not the only person on a stationery forum who was required to use fpens and washable blue ink at school).

 

Not sure what kind of source you're looking for, as I doubt there's any sort of (empirical) study on this, but if this doesn't suffice then I can't help you any further unfortunately, you'll have to take my word for it.

[JulieParadise]

Yep, I can second what Olya writes, as I grew up in the GDR, later united Germany, where I attended school from 1987 onwards until 2000. We used fountain pens from first grade on and for years most teachers demanded washable/royal blue to be used, which allowed us to use the ink eraser / Tintenkiller (not allowed in tests and exams).

 

Some teachers also allowed more adventurous ink colours except red (or anything red-dish), as this is the teachers's colour for corrections and green, as this was the colour for the headmaster (who, to this day, as I know from my children's school) is shown the best, the mid and the worst exemplar of each exam or class test.

 

Spills are rare and fading is only becoming an issue now, after having left school for about 20 years. Some notes have faded but it took them until now, so, as long as you need them to prepare for exams, these would last.

 

I only know of one single colour that fades so badly that it even vanishes in closed cahiers: Kaweco Paradise Blue, a turquoisy colour with extreme fugitivity. My daughter used it in her notes for a while and could not read those after the school year ended. Gone, completely goe, as if it had never been on paper. Amazing.

[SoulSamurai]

Not sure what kind of source you're looking for, as I doubt there's any sort of (empirical) study on this, but if this doesn't suffice then I can't help you any further unfortunately, you'll have to take my word for it.

 

 

Your original statement was "millions of schoolchildren across Europe have been using washable blue ink for decades now and no disasters at all". That seemed a very strong and definitive statement; I was wondering if you were basing it on something other than personal experience.