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Pelikan Vs Sailor In Terms Of Wetness

wetness sailor pelikan nib feed japanese western

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34 replies to this topic

#21 BlueJ

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 17:25

Thinker:

I looked at nibsmith.com just now and apparently Dan does not give a specific numerical scale for nib properties, nor do I have copies of my last communication with him (it was a couple of years ago.) I think I asked him for wetness "7 on a scale of 1-10" or similar in retuning the Sailor Realo.

 

I don't think piston fillers as a general rule are wetter than cartridge-converter fillers by virtue of the filling mechanism.

 

You can buy Sailor and other Japanese fountain pens direct from Japan at lower prices but the tuning offered by nibs.com or nibsmith.com included in their price is well worth it in my opinion.

 

I don't have any more information to offer on this thread, sorry.



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#22 tinta

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 21:04

If you buy from some sources, like nibs.com, the (unaltered) nib will be tuned before shipping.  In their order sheet there is a place to indicate if you want a wetter or drier than "normal" ink flow.  I have bought an number of Sailor 1911S & Sapporo/Sapporo-Mini pens from them throughout the years (no affiliation). 

 

The only unmodified nib I received from this shop wrote (flowed) well enough with the limited variety of Sailor & Iroshi inks that I used at that time, but I did not like the factory MS nib, so this pen too went to Classic Fountain Pens. 

Since every one of my nibs (at the time) were reground by John M. before delivery, I had all kinds of opportunity to describe to him the level of "wetness" that I wanted for each nib.  All these pens originally sported massive MS (1.15 mm.) nibs that were then reduced to more modest grade italic shapes (stubs or CI-s).  

 

As I acquired more Sailors & other pens, I checked out the work of other well known nib-techs.  Some techs used words to describe ink flow, while others used a number system of 1 to 10 or expressed as a fraction,  like 7/10. 

By this time on my fountain pen journey, I started favouring much drier inks, both dye-based & iron-gall.  My usual number for required "wetness" would be at least 6/10,  but usually more.

 

Eventually I became a huge fan of Pendleton Brown's work (no affiliation).   He has "BLS"-ed a number of JoWo & Bock nibs for me.  All the feeds from one well known German nib manufacturer had to be physically altered to get adequate ink flow through to the nibs.  So,...feed performance may be an important factor in achieving a satisfying writing result.

 

My Sailor feeds, I must say have never let me down.  These feeds (I have two distinct versions for the smaller 14c nibs) must have an excellent ink buffering system, as their flow seems to remain constant,  from a full to an almost empty converter.  Not quite so good with some of my contemporary EU brand pens.

 

This December I received a Sailor Pro-Gear Slim "Fire" with a B nib that I decided to keep, just as it has come to me from the factory.  My original plan was to send this pen off to Pendleton for a "BLS" customization, but the pen wrote so incredibly well out-of-the-box that I couldn't part with it.  Smooth, yet with subtle feedback & a controlled delivery of my dry inks, I'm on :cloud9: with this Sailor. This pen's nib tamed Pelikan 4001 Blue/Black ink,...no mean feat.


Edited by tinta, 22 February 2020 - 21:07.

*Sailor 1911S, Black/gold, 14c. 0.8 mm. stub(JM) *1911S blue "Colours", 14c. H-B "M" BLS (PB) *2 Sailor 1911S Burgundy/gold: 14c. 0.6 mm. "round-nosed" CI (MM) & 1.1 mm. CI (JM) *Sailor Pro-Gear Slim Spec. Ed. "Fire",14c. (factory) "H-B" *Kaweco SPECIAL FP: 14c.,-0.6 mm BLS, (PB) *Kaweco Stainless Steel Lilliput, 14c "M" -0.4 mm.BLS, (PB)

#23 The-Thinker

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Posted 21 March 2020 - 22:40

If you buy from some sources, like nibs.com, the (unaltered) nib will be tuned before shipping.  In their order sheet there is a place to indicate if you want a wetter or drier than "normal" ink flow.  I have bought an number of Sailor 1911S & Sapporo/Sapporo-Mini pens from them throughout the years (no affiliation). 
 
The only unmodified nib I received from this shop wrote (flowed) well enough with the limited variety of Sailor & Iroshi inks that I used at that time, but I did not like the factory MS nib, so this pen too went to Classic Fountain Pens. 
Since every one of my nibs (at the time) were reground by John M. before delivery, I had all kinds of opportunity to describe to him the level of "wetness" that I wanted for each nib.  All these pens originally sported massive MS (1.15 mm.) nibs that were then reduced to more modest grade italic shapes (stubs or CI-s).  
 
As I acquired more Sailors & other pens, I checked out the work of other well known nib-techs.  Some techs used words to describe ink flow, while others used a number system of 1 to 10 or expressed as a fraction,  like 7/10. 
By this time on my fountain pen journey, I started favouring much drier inks, both dye-based & iron-gall.  My usual number for required "wetness" would be at least 6/10,  but usually more.
 
Eventually I became a huge fan of Pendleton Brown's work (no affiliation).   He has "BLS"-ed a number of JoWo & Bock nibs for me.  All the feeds from one well known German nib manufacturer had to be physically altered to get adequate ink flow through to the nibs.  So,...feed performance may be an important factor in achieving a satisfying writing result.
 
My Sailor feeds, I must say have never let me down.  These feeds (I have two distinct versions for the smaller 14c nibs) must have an excellent ink buffering system, as their flow seems to remain constant,  from a full to an almost empty converter.  Not quite so good with some of my contemporary EU brand pens.
 
This December I received a Sailor Pro-Gear Slim "Fire" with a B nib that I decided to keep, just as it has come to me from the factory.  My original plan was to send this pen off to Pendleton for a "BLS" customization, but the pen wrote so incredibly well out-of-the-box that I couldn't part with it.  Smooth, yet with subtle feedback & a controlled delivery of my dry inks, I'm on :cloud9: with this Sailor. This pen's nib tamed Pelikan 4001 Blue/Black ink,...no mean feat.



#24 The-Thinker

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Posted 21 March 2020 - 22:41

How did you find your broad sailor compared to other western nibs in same nib wids regarding wetness ?

#25 Intensity

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Posted 22 March 2020 - 01:56

Not broad, but my MS (music nib which is basically a stub) Sailor Pro Gear was a pretty wet writer.  Maybe not as wet as broader Pelikans, but juicy enough. 


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#26 Nyanzilla

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Posted 24 March 2020 - 00:34

I'd say that my Pelikans write a bit wetter than my Sailors. But the difference isn't huge. And the Sailors have an absolutely perfect ink flow.


"On the internet nobody knows you're a cat." =^.^=


#27 minddance

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Posted 24 March 2020 - 16:58

both brands have excellent feed. Sailors, depending on how you write, can limit the amount of ink onto paper due to its unique nib grind. Pelikans feel wetter to me under the same circumstances.

recently I came across a rather juicy Sailor 14k EF that wrote wetter than my Pelikan m200ef. Strange.

#28 tinta

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Posted 26 March 2020 - 02:56

How did you find your broad sailor compared to other western nibs in same nib wids regarding wetness ?

The Sailor 14c H-B nib had a slightly wetter flow than what I'd consider normal.  This is how it came from the factory.  This nib performed very well with my favourite  dry inks.

 

The Kaweco/Bock B nibs were all rather dry due to the Bock 060 feed system.  Two of my "western" B nibs by Bock had modified.  They were both  stubbed, with one of them ground slightly narrower.  In both cases the feed had to be altered so that I could use dry conventional & iron-gall inks.


*Sailor 1911S, Black/gold, 14c. 0.8 mm. stub(JM) *1911S blue "Colours", 14c. H-B "M" BLS (PB) *2 Sailor 1911S Burgundy/gold: 14c. 0.6 mm. "round-nosed" CI (MM) & 1.1 mm. CI (JM) *Sailor Pro-Gear Slim Spec. Ed. "Fire",14c. (factory) "H-B" *Kaweco SPECIAL FP: 14c.,-0.6 mm BLS, (PB) *Kaweco Stainless Steel Lilliput, 14c "M" -0.4 mm.BLS, (PB)

#29 The-Thinker

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Posted 26 March 2020 - 20:50

Not broad, but my MS (music nib which is basically a stub) Sailor Pro Gear was a pretty wet writer.  Maybe not as wet as broader Pelikans, but juicy enough. 

have you thought of making it wetter or tuning it more ?



#30 The-Thinker

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Posted 26 March 2020 - 20:50

I'd say that my Pelikans write a bit wetter than my Sailors. But the difference isn't huge. And the Sailors have an absolutely perfect ink flow.

why do you think sailors are wetters ?



#31 The-Thinker

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Posted 26 March 2020 - 20:51

The Sailor 14c H-B nib had a slightly wetter flow than what I'd consider normal.  This is how it came from the factory.  This nib performed very well with my favourite  dry inks.

 

The Kaweco/Bock B nibs were all rather dry due to the Bock 060 feed system.  Two of my "western" B nibs by Bock had modified.  They were both  stubbed, with one of them ground slightly narrower.  In both cases the feed had to be altered so that I could use dry conventional & iron-gall inks.

have you ever modified a feed ?



#32 The-Thinker

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Posted 26 March 2020 - 20:52

both brands have excellent feed. Sailors, depending on how you write, can limit the amount of ink onto paper due to its unique nib grind. Pelikans feel wetter to me under the same circumstances.

recently I came across a rather juicy Sailor 14k EF that wrote wetter than my Pelikan m200ef. Strange.

it wetter out of the box ? did you use the same ink ?



#33 tinta

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Posted 27 March 2020 - 22:16

have you ever modified a fee

There is I believe a thread about this topic on FPN. 

Some folks use a special saw blade to achieve a uniform square bottom on the main feed channel.  However, I would not recommend this work for an average pen enthusiast.  Certainly not on a Sailor or a Pelikan feed.  If you make an error, there is no going back.

 

If you send the nib-unit to a nib/feed specialist who has done many such modifications, you'll fare much better.  Ask up-front if they have done successful work on feeds.  If they do not seem confident or competent, go elsewhere. 

At least there would be some measure of a warranty with the work of a well known specialist.  Pendleton Brown (no affiliation) modified three Bock 060 feeds, with excellent results.  I highly recommend him.

 

Here is an image of a modified Bock 060 series feed.  This is a fairly simple feed design, but you can still get things go wrong.

[attachment=487608:1-2.jpg]


Edited by tinta, 27 March 2020 - 22:17.

*Sailor 1911S, Black/gold, 14c. 0.8 mm. stub(JM) *1911S blue "Colours", 14c. H-B "M" BLS (PB) *2 Sailor 1911S Burgundy/gold: 14c. 0.6 mm. "round-nosed" CI (MM) & 1.1 mm. CI (JM) *Sailor Pro-Gear Slim Spec. Ed. "Fire",14c. (factory) "H-B" *Kaweco SPECIAL FP: 14c.,-0.6 mm BLS, (PB) *Kaweco Stainless Steel Lilliput, 14c "M" -0.4 mm.BLS, (PB)

#34 The-Thinker

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Posted 28 March 2020 - 23:15

There is I believe a thread about this topic on FPN. 

Some folks use a special saw blade to achieve a uniform square bottom on the main feed channel.  However, I would not recommend this work for an average pen enthusiast.  Certainly not on a Sailor or a Pelikan feed.  If you make an error, there is no going back.

 

If you send the nib-unit to a nib/feed specialist who has done many such modifications, you'll fare much better.  Ask up-front if they have done successful work on feeds.  If they do not seem confident or competent, go elsewhere. 

At least there would be some measure of a warranty with the work of a well known specialist.  Pendleton Brown (no affiliation) modified three Bock 060 feeds, with excellent results.  I highly recommend him.

 

Here is an image of a modified Bock 060 series feed.  This is a fairly simple feed design, but you can still get things go wrong.

attachicon.gif 1-2.jpg

that channel looks a lot deeper than the stock feed, did you see a major difference ?  or the result was not that much noticeable ?



#35 tinta

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Posted 30 March 2020 - 00:04

that channel looks a lot deeper than the stock feed, did you see a major difference ?  or the result was not that much noticeable ?

It may be only my photo that suggests a certain deepness in the ink channel. 

 

Pendleton joined in on a FPN conversation regarding modifying feed channels.  I remember him saying that very gradually, only a tiny amount of material should be removed from a feed,  making sure that the feed channel's bottom is flat with straight sides.

 

By modifying a pen's feed, you are changing how ink is making its "slow leak" journey through your nib-unit.  A stock Kaweco/Bock 060 feed in my experience does not flow well with Pelikan or my various ferrogallic inks.   After their minor "surgery", these feeds flowed more readily with my preferred dry inks. 

The result was quite noticeable.


*Sailor 1911S, Black/gold, 14c. 0.8 mm. stub(JM) *1911S blue "Colours", 14c. H-B "M" BLS (PB) *2 Sailor 1911S Burgundy/gold: 14c. 0.6 mm. "round-nosed" CI (MM) & 1.1 mm. CI (JM) *Sailor Pro-Gear Slim Spec. Ed. "Fire",14c. (factory) "H-B" *Kaweco SPECIAL FP: 14c.,-0.6 mm BLS, (PB) *Kaweco Stainless Steel Lilliput, 14c "M" -0.4 mm.BLS, (PB)





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