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Pelikan Vs Sailor In Terms Of Wetness

wetness sailor pelikan nib feed japanese western

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34 replies to this topic

#1 The-Thinker

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Posted 07 February 2020 - 18:57

To all those who own (tried) both pens, i would like to ask why are western nibs (pelikans specifically) are know to be wetter than the Japanese nibs (considering same nib width on paper and not marking) . Is it because of the feed/nib material or the engineering of the feed/nib ?



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#2 BlueJ

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 16:51

To the extent that this difference exists (and exceptions can certainly be found) I would say it depends on the details of the nib and feed design and not on material composition, which is mostly the same. Conversely, Japanese inks tend to be wetter, so if you pair pens with inks from the same country the difference may largely disappear.



#3 Olya

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 17:22

Definitely due to engineering and not material. The material is likely the same or very similar (steel/gold nib, plastic feed; the only question would be which plastic, but I'm certain pen companies use pretty much the same type across the board with some exceptions).



#4 The-Thinker

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 17:33

i do agree with you! i am curious to know if one puts a sailor feed on a pelikan nib or the opposite way around, will the nibs perform as they would on their original feeds ( in other words i want to narrow downs if its due to the nib or feed ) 

 

To the extent that this difference exists (and exceptions can certainly be found) I would say it depends on the details of the nib and feed design and not on material composition, which is mostly the same. Conversely, Japanese inks tend to be wetter, so if you pair pens with inks from the same country the difference may largely disappear.



#5 The-Thinker

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 17:34

that is true ! it seems like modern pelikans do not use ebonite feeds, but im amazed how they get such a wet flow using plastic feeds whereas Japanese pens use the same material and get drier nibs 

Definitely due to engineering and not material. The material is likely the same or very similar (steel/gold nib, plastic feed; the only question would be which plastic, but I'm certain pen companies use pretty much the same type across the board with some exceptions).



#6 BlueJ

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 19:08

i do agree with you! i am curious to know if one puts a sailor feed on a pelikan nib or the opposite way around, will the nibs perform as they would on their original feeds ( in other words i want to narrow downs if its due to the nib or feed ) 

 

 

It would be difficult to say how much of the difference in flow is due to the nib versus the feed design. A Pelikan nib (for example) might not even be compatible with a Sailor feed since both parts need to be shaped to ensure a close fit that maintains capillary action. So, the suggested experiment (such as exchanging nibs between the two brands) might not lead to meaningful conclusions.

 

The nib tines on the two Sailors I own were initially very tightly closed at the tip and the nibs were very dry until they were broken in (1911 Standard H-F) or professionally adjusted (Realo H-M). Some other users have reported different experiences. I will say my Sailor feeds behave differently from most American or European feeds I have used in two ways: They fill through the "breather" holes rather than from the base of the feed, and they write absolutely normally to the last drop of ink in the pen, instead of becoming dry and skippy for the last paragraph or so.



#7 The-Thinker

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 20:38

when your sailor was professionally adjusted, how wet did it run ? was it similar to pelikan wetness? the filling mechanism  and writing till the last drop that you explained, did you mean it for the Japanese pens or the European ones ? 

 

It would be difficult to say how much of the difference in flow is due to the nib versus the feed design. A Pelikan nib (for example) might not even be compatible with a Sailor feed since both parts need to be shaped to ensure a close fit that maintains capillary action. So, the suggested experiment (such as exchanging nibs between the two brands) might not lead to meaningful conclusions.

 

The nib tines on the two Sailors I own were initially very tightly closed at the tip and the nibs were very dry until they were broken in (1911 Standard H-F) or professionally adjusted (Realo H-M). Some other users have reported different experiences. I will say my Sailor feeds behave differently from most American or European feeds I have used in two ways: They fill through the "breather" holes rather than from the base of the feed, and they write absolutely normally to the last drop of ink in the pen, instead of becoming dry and skippy for the last paragraph or so.



#8 BlueJ

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 22:41

The "good to the last drop" and breather hole comments were with regard to Sailor.

 

The flow in the Sailor Realo after a nibmeister (Dan Smith) adjusted it for me was roughly similar to a stock Pelikan M200 I used to own, and to a couple of other Pelikans I have now. Of course these things are hard to quantify, and furthermore the wetness of the adjusted Sailor reflects how I asked Dan to tune it, so your or anyone's results may differ.



#9 The-Thinker

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 22:46

The "good to the last drop" and breather hole comments were with regard to Sailor.

 

The flow in the Sailor Realo after a nibmeister (Dan Smith) adjusted it for me was roughly similar to a stock Pelikan M200 I used to own, and to a couple of other Pelikans I have now. Of course these things are hard to quantify, and furthermore the wetness of the adjusted Sailor reflects how I asked Dan to tune it, so your or anyone's results may differ.

 

yes you are absolutely true! i feel like they write to the last drop, and regarding the tuning, your also right since every nib meister is different 



#10 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 21:59

Pelikan makes a dry ink, the 4001*, so makes a wet nib to meet in the middle. Waterman makes a wet ink....or was once considered wet ..... Some Noodler users consider Waterman a dry ink. :rolleyes:

So Waterman made a narrow nib with a wet ink, Pelikan a dryer ink and wider nib....both met in the middle.

* I doubt if Pelikan changed it's nibs for the 'new' somewhat wetter  Edelstein inks.

 

I don't know anything about Japaneses pens....having no need for XXF or XXXF nibs.

 

Companies who make pens and inks match them...like MB is a medium to medium dry ink, with a somewhat wet nib.

Japanese makers will be matching their nib to their own ink....not other Japanese inks.


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#11 inkstainedruth

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Posted 19 February 2020 - 02:26

Well, it depends on both the pen and the nib.  My Platinum Plaisir, which has a medium nib, is pretty dry.  And my Sailor Pro-Gear Slim, which has a zoom nib, is dry -- although I partly chalk that up to the unusual nib, and wouldn't necessarily presume that a normal nib would be dry.  OTOH, my Pilot Decimo, which has a fine nib, is not dry.

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#12 peroride

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Posted 19 February 2020 - 03:45

To all those who own (tried) both pens, i would like to ask why are western nibs (pelikans specifically) are know to be wetter than the Japanese nibs (considering same nib width on paper and not marking) . Is it because of the feed/nib material or the engineering of the feed/nib ?

 

The modern materials seem similar to me

  • Feeds: plastic, check
  • Nibs: gold, check

 

hmm... :huh: 

 

My guess, Pelikans are wetter because they dive into water whereas Sailors like to stay dry on the boat  :lol:

 

Seriously, all my unadjusted Pelikans are wetter than my comparable sized Sailors

 

I can only surmise it has to do with the nib shape and feed architecture. There are also some negative reports with Pelikan nib QC wherein nibs write broader than indicated.

 

That said, when I got my M101 ground, Mr. Mottishaw was able to tailor the flow down from the usual blast.

 

:wub:  I love Pelikans and Sailors both are among my top brands for reliability and go to ness



#13 Intensity

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Posted 19 February 2020 - 06:33

Pelikan pens are piston fillers with larger ink capacities—those tend to naturally put out more ink.  Nib tipping width also plays a role.  For instance Sailor Zoom and Music nibs tend to be pretty juicy.  Both of my Music nibs (21K and 14K) put down a lot of ink.  Fine nibs of the Japanese variety are tuned to write more dry, in order to maintain that very thin line on paper.  With that said, my 21K Sailor F nib is a moderately wet writer, so there’s some variation.  Both of my Sailor EF nibs (21K and 14K) are more dry, which is a good thing.


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#14 A Smug Dill

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 05:46

when your sailor was professionally adjusted, how wet did it run ? was it similar to pelikan wetness?

 

I would hope that it is as wet as the individual customer has requested, if a pen was professionally adjusted. I bought a Pelikan (and an Aurora) but not a Sailor from Nibsmith.com, and I specifically requested, as part of the nib work Dan Smith was doing for me as part and parcel of the transaction, that the ink flow is adjusted to suit the higher priority of line definition coming out of the EF-cum-crisp-Italic nib.

 

If you want your nib to be wet, then ask for it to be adjusted so, hopefully not with such descriptions as "similar to pelikan wetness" but in some way that the nibmeister can accommodate, test and verify. If you want your nib to be drier, then ask for that.

 

Pelikan pens are piston fillers with larger ink capacities

 

 

Some Pelikan fountain pens are. Pelikan P20x models are still fountain pens that rightly bears the brand name.


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#15 BlueJ

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 07:18

Smug Dill is correct that the Sailor Realo I mentioned was tuned by Dan Smith to my request, as I tried to say above, and I used the numerical scale given on Dan's website to specify wetness and smoothness, and not any comparison to Pelikan or other pen brands. The comparison I made above was just to answer the OP's question.

 

Dan also did a great job of maintaining that special Sailor personality in the nib (the "pencil-like feedback") also as I asked.



#16 The-Thinker

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 13:11

 

I would hope that it is as wet as the individual customer has requested, if a pen was professionally adjusted. I bought a Pelikan (and an Aurora) but not a Sailor from Nibsmith.com, and I specifically requested, as part of the nib work Dan Smith was doing for me as part and parcel of the transaction, that the ink flow is adjusted to suit the higher priority of line definition coming out of the EF-cum-crisp-Italic nib.

 

If you want your nib to be wet, then ask for it to be adjusted so, hopefully not with such descriptions as "similar to pelikan wetness" but in some way that the nibmeister can accommodate, test and verify. If you want your nib to be drier, then ask for that.

 

 

 

Some Pelikan fountain pens are. Pelikan P20x models are still fountain pens that rightly bears the brand name.

 

that is right, im wondering if its better to order from nibsmith, nibs.com or any other Japanese retainer 



#17 The-Thinker

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 13:12

Smug Dill is correct that the Sailor Realo I mentioned was tuned by Dan Smith to my request, as I tried to say above, and I used the numerical scale given on Dan's website to specify wetness and smoothness, and not any comparison to Pelikan or other pen brands. The comparison I made above was just to answer the OP's question.

 

Dan also did a great job of maintaining that special Sailor personality in the nib (the "pencil-like feedback") also as I asked.

i adore the sailor feedback! that’s why i'm a huge fan or sailors! what wetness did you choose ?



#18 The-Thinker

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 13:13

Pelikan pens are piston fillers with larger ink capacities—those tend to naturally put out more ink.  Nib tipping width also plays a role.  For instance Sailor Zoom and Music nibs tend to be pretty juicy.  Both of my Music nibs (21K and 14K) put down a lot of ink.  Fine nibs of the Japanese variety are tuned to write more dry, in order to maintain that very thin line on paper.  With that said, my 21K Sailor F nib is a moderately wet writer, so there’s some variation.  Both of my Sailor EF nibs (21K and 14K) are more dry, which is a good thing.

you have a point there, i'm wondering if a piston filler would push ink out of then nib more by gravity 



#19 The-Thinker

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 13:14

Well, it depends on both the pen and the nib.  My Platinum Plaisir, which has a medium nib, is pretty dry.  And my Sailor Pro-Gear Slim, which has a zoom nib, is dry -- although I partly chalk that up to the unusual nib, and wouldn't necessarily presume that a normal nib would be dry.  OTOH, my Pilot Decimo, which has a fine nib, is not dry.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

why who are sailors in your opinion even drier than the pilots ?



#20 The-Thinker

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Posted 22 February 2020 - 13:14

 

The modern materials seem similar to me

  • Feeds: plastic, check
  • Nibs: gold, check

 

hmm... :huh:

 

My guess, Pelikans are wetter because they dive into water whereas Sailors like to stay dry on the boat  :lol:

 

Seriously, all my unadjusted Pelikans are wetter than my comparable sized Sailors

 

I can only surmise it has to do with the nib shape and feed architecture. There are also some negative reports with Pelikan nib QC wherein nibs write broader than indicated.

 

That said, when I got my M101 ground, Mr. Mottishaw was able to tailor the flow down from the usual blast.

 

:wub:  I love Pelikans and Sailors both are among my top brands for reliability and go to ness

yes ! you have point there, mine too ! 







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