The Modern Grail Pen

[tonybelding]

I just did a search on YouTube for "grail pens". I didn't watch all the videos that came up, but it was apparent just from looking at the titles and thumbnail images that almost all of them were about expensive custom and limited-edition modern pens. Somewhere way down the list I found one lonely entry featuring a vintage Waterman.

 

I was surprised by that. Maybe I've been in this hobby so long, I never realized when the ground shifted under my feet. When I began it seemed like a "grail pen" was always something like… a clean mandarin yellow Parker Duofold… a lapis blue Wahl-Eversharp Gold Seal Deco Band… an original Parker 51 Flighter… Of course, expensive modern pens were around, they could be seen in mail-order catalogs (anybody remember those?), and modern limited editions were around, but anybody actively collecting those overpriced novelty items was liable to be looked down on with some scorn by real pen collectors.

 

Well, it for sure ain't like that now.

 

Watching the posts scroll by on r/fountainpens, I get the impression that interest is now far more weighted towards modern pens. Interest in vintage pens is not going away, but it has been eclipsed.

[pajaro]

I guess it depends on what you want a pen for, bragging rights or writing or collecting? Modern pens don't write as pens did in the 50s and 60s. As people became more affluent it seems collecting various expensive items became their preoccupation. Bigger houses for stuff. I have become disillusioned with modern pens because they don't seem to work as I expect if I try to use them. I have quit buying and am preparing to get rid of most of my pens.

[austollie]

Hi Pajaro,

 

I think that your theory is about right, i.e. as people become more affluent, manufacturers try to create products that these affluent people can spend their cash on. An expensive pen generally doesn't write any better than a standard pen. It's just that it's made from more expensive materials or that it's more exclusive (e.g. low run limited edition such as the Lamy 2000 Bauhaus- which I didn't purchase). Can a steel nib, hard as a nail, provide a satisfactory writing experience? Yes, absolutely. One of the attractions of writing with a fountain pen is that you can keep the pressure on the page really light, to reduce fatigue. If that is the case, one hardly 'needs' a super flexible gold nib (although they can make the writing experience a tiny bit better).

 

However, I think that there are great modern pens around. I am particularly impressed with the current Lamy range. I absolutely love my Lamy 2000 (the design of which has changed little since 1966) as well as my Lamy Safaris. You can even retrofit the Safari with a gold nib.

 

I am a keen collector of 1970s (and to a lesser extent 1960s and 1980s and beyond) student pens. I love writing with these and I like seeing the evolution of the pens over time. There are no bragging rights to be had when writing with a 1970s student pen and that's the way that I like it.

 

Cheers, Ollie

[silverlifter]

I frequently see pens like the (admittedly excellent) Lamy 2000 described as a "grail". The term is effectively meaningless now.

 

I'm old and set in my ways, so for me a "grail" thing will always be something that you need more than money to acquire. So I can confidently identify my grail pen, the green one. Yes, I could afford it, but no--the odds of me acquiring it are effectively zero. C'est la vie.

[oldrifleman]

Yeah, I have seen that as well!. Yes I have and love modern pens ( for the most part they just are more reliable), but I do have a place in my heart for Vintage Pens. I love my Waterman 55s, Pelikan 100s, but my Grail is a clean MB 139 with a Broad nib! That said I will likely never buy one as I have too many pens now anyway.

[praxim]

People who put up youtube videos are often in need of clicks or sponsorship for revenue. That is easier to find if effectively you are advertising something currently fairly readily available for sale. How many people watching want to spend the same money on something seventy and more years old, and for which the price will be driven up owing to scarcity? It seems to me that may skew the subject matter.

[Marcwithac]

This is a very interesting thread. For many years, my fountain pen collecting focused exclusively on vintage pens. Before I eventually acquired them, some of my grail pens included a turquoise Waterman Patrician, a Pelikan 111T Toledo and a Montblanc L139 (although I actually acquired the rarer MB 129 pushknob filler first). Over the past several years, I find myself buying more and more modern pens. Why? First, the quality of many top line pens has improved. For example, I sneered at Montblanc 149s when I started collecting in the early 1990s, but I just bought a Calligraphy Flex and I love it. Made to spec handmade pens have also piqued my interest. I have several Nakayas and one of my current grail pens is a Hakase. Also, the growth over the last few years in the number of nibmeisters who can magically transform the stiffest nail means that pens that were once just decorative can now be made to write as beautifully as my best flexy vintage Conklin crescent filler. I still love my vintage pens - I currently have my MB L139, a Pelikan 400 and a Waterman #7 inked - but I also enjoy my Visconti Homo Sapiens and my Conid Kingsize Bulkfiller. So did the hobby evolve, or did I?

[Addertooth]

I don't want to be the financial weasel, but vintage "grail pens" have decades of proven (and climbing) prices. I see a lot of Grail pens from 5 years ago which are declining in resell value.

It doesn't hurt that there are a lot of vintage "fixer-uppers" which can climb hundreds of dollars in value with a couple hours of work. There are fewer new pens which have this characteristic.

[Driften]

The people doing videos are the new type of users. They are not into vintage for the most part but buy expensive or luxury items. Today a grail pen is something modern a person has to save up for. So it can be a Lamy 2000 for someone used to $10 pens or $500 for someone that normally sticks to $100 pens.

 

It's not just pen buyers but any type of modern collector. You will see lots of grail items in knife, watch, or other areas and in most cases its not vintage models.

[OmegaMountain]

I'm not sure why this always comes up and why people seem unable to accept the simple idea that the term "grail" is entirely subjective. If all you can afford is a Bic but you love pens, a Lamy Safari can be a grail for you. I don't think it's anyone's place to decide what "grail" means to someone else. I do wish we could find another term to use to eliminate this whole issue though.

[SchaumburgSwan]

Hi,

 

I agree with Silverlifter that this term is used too often simply to say "pens I'd love to have".

A Pelikan M1000 or M800 Raden or vintage Swan lizard skins are such for me.

 

A grail pen is something that would take a lot of time, luck and afford to get one.

The Soennecken Präsident 1 with EF nib would be it.

No modern pen...

 

Best

Jens

[tamiya]

Agree, the Grail term has been badly bastardised.

 

I personally read it as "holy grail" (non religious, just classical hearsay) as in the iconic mythical chalice that I'd have to put big effort into doing a pilgrimage/crusade to far off lands in order to seek & acquire it.

 

Ergo:

 

1, undecided whether there's other parties also in competition to obtain said item. Or if someone known already possesses it. Or if there's multiple units of that item, or if it can be shared (and if each smaller portion works as well as the whole).

 

2, it has to already EXIST mythical it might be, but it has to already exist... I can't have it manufactured just for me to my specifications

 

3, does it necessarily have to have intrinsic value (precious materials etc)? Or does that sense of value come about from my sacrifices I've given (travel, suffering, murder etc) to gain possession of it.

 

4, and once acquired, is it any "good" even? What are you going to do with it? How will it make you a better human? What next?

 

 

Knowing my luck, the Grail might just be a Keepcup last used by Yahsoo at the corner Greek coffee shop...

[A Smug Dill]

@tonybelding, so that I don't misunderstand, is your musing — which, to be clear, I'm glad you raised for discussion here — specifically about what is seen as "(the holy) grail" among pens by different individuals these days, or (by very broad extension) just what pen buyers in the market now find sufficiently or strongly appealing to pry their wallets open?

I personally have to approach the topic prima facie, which is what is seen or touted by individual vloggers, bloggers, reviewers and commenters online as their particular "grail" pens. Who do they speak for or represent? Nobody else. They want what they want, love what they love, worship what they worship. I don't see any implication from either the vloggers or your good self that they are evangelising, much less demanding agreement, that those are the very pens that their audience or anyone else ought to also consider those objects with equally high regard.

 

The way I understand it, the "(holy) grail" is the object at the end of one's quest in a particular realm, the ultimate prize or attainment that if one ever manages to find it, reach it or even acquire it, there is no more questing to do. To that end, absolutely nobody else's opinion of such a thing ought to matter. Whether one paid too high a price (according to whom?), or somehow got it for a bargain or chanced upon it by sheer blind luck, is irrelevant. If one has secured the "grail" (pen, in this case) for oneself, then who cares what any self-styled "real pen collector", curator or historian thinks of it? He/she who has the "grail" can rightly disregard and f***et everyone else's views, because the "grail" is not the product of popular or representative sentiment and does not rely on some shared preferences and beliefs in the community to validate the object's value. What does it matter if someone sneers at the object or look down on its possessor with scorn? Who's more ignorant, she who has the grail and knows its true value, or he who fails to recognise it even when it is right before his eyes?

 

Craving ownership of an object purely for the projected image of being affluent, being sophisticated, being learned, being in tune with the views of some select group with which one identifies, being a leader or torch-bearer in certain circles, or so on is equally as bad. Nothing inherently makes he who values the "treasures" of days or artistry bygone better or more noble than he who values what is new, shiny and could not have been produced without today's capabilities. People can be romantic about all sorts of ideals, and that's perfectly fine but it doesn't make them more right, or a better captain for a particular pursuit either today or tomorrow.

 

I personally have no interest in pens from the Sixties or earlier; they were before my time, not produced for me or fashioned with my contemporaries' requirements and preferences in mind. How they wrote, in terms of their characteristics, is academic. Sure, I can study them and decide whether any of their characteristics are of value to my and my contemporaries' pursuits today; and, if so, I'll leverage the information in seeking or designing modern replacements, instead of putting the embodiment of such in "vintage" pens on a pedestal. Quite specifically, if I or we can produce those specific characteristics we desire — which then become embodied in the "grail" — in something new and shiny, then I think we can throw away the old objects that also embodies what is undesirable, such as visible signs of age and cosmetic marring, less reliable or less robust components, etc. Kinda like genetic engineering: let's produce a superior strain or breed of X by today's standards, taking (but not necessarily salvaging) what was of value yesterday and reproduce it in something better tomorrow, while we leave the past in the the dust.

 

Thus, it makes sense that prevalent ideas of what the "grail" is will evolve and change with every generation and every age, if one is looking at trends instead of what particular individuals of the day want.

[Estycollector]

@tonybelding, so that I don't misunderstand, is your musing — which, to be clear, I'm glad you raised for discussion here — specifically about what is seen as "(the holy) grail" among pens by different individuals these days, or (by very broad extension) just what pen buyers in the market now find sufficiently or strongly appealing to pry their wallets open?

 

I personally have to approach the topic prima facie, which is what is seen or touted by individual vloggers, bloggers, reviewers and commenters online as their particular "grail" pens. Who do they speak for or represent? Nobody else. They want what they want, love what they love, worship what they worship. I don't see any implication from either the vloggers or your good self that they are evangelising, much less demanding agreement, that those are the very pens that their audience or anyone else ought to also consider those objects with equally high regard.

 

The way I understand it, the "(holy) grail" is the object at the end of one's quest in a particular realm, the ultimate prize or attainment that if one ever manages to find it, reach it or even acquire it, there is no more questing to do. To that end, absolutely nobody else's opinion of such a thing ought to matter. Whether one paid too high a price (according to whom?), or somehow got it for a bargain or chanced upon it by sheer blind luck, is irrelevant. If one has secured the "grail" (pen, in this case) for oneself, then who cares what any self-styled "real pen collector", curator or historian thinks of it? He/she who has the "grail" can rightly disregard and f***et everyone else's views, because the "grail" is not the product of popular or representative sentiment and does not rely on some shared preferences and beliefs in the community to validate the object's value. What does it matter if someone sneers at the object or look down on its possessor with scorn? Who's more ignorant, she who has the grail and knows its true value, or he who fails to recognise it even when it is right before his eyes?

 

Craving ownership of an object purely for the projected image of being affluent, being sophisticated, being learned, being in tune with the views of some select group with which one identifies, being a leader or torch-bearer in certain circles, or so on is equally as bad. Nothing inherently makes he who values the "treasures" of days or artistry bygone better or more noble than he who values what is new, shiny and could not have been produced without today's capabilities. People can be romantic about all sorts of ideals, and that's perfectly fine but it doesn't make them more right, or a better captain for a particular pursuit either today or tomorrow.

 

I personally have no interest in pens from the Sixties or earlier; they were before my time, not produced for me or fashioned with my contemporaries' requirements and preferences in mind. How they wrote, in terms of their characteristics, is academic. Sure, I can study them and decide whether any of their characteristics are of value to my and my contemporaries' pursuits today; and, if so, I'll leverage the information in seeking or designing modern replacements, instead of putting the embodiment of such in "vintage" pens on a pedestal. Quite specifically, if I or we can produce those specific characteristics we desire — which then become embodied in the "grail" — in something new and shiny, then I think we can throw away the old objects that also embodies what is undesirable, such as visible signs of age and cosmetic marring, less reliable or less robust components, etc. Kinda like genetic engineering: let's produce a superior strain or breed of X by today's standards, taking (but not necessarily salvaging) what was of value yesterday and reproduce it in something better tomorrow, while we leave the past in the the dust.

 

Thus, it makes sense that prevalent ideas of what the "grail" is will evolve and change with every generation and every age, if one is looking at trends instead of what particular individuals of the day want.

 

Good post.

 

I do think, however, there is an element of conformity that permeates the human experience whereas we want what others want or say we should want directly or indirectly. The Parker 51 or MB 149 come to mind. Perhaps this is more true for the new user or inexperienced. When we've had the opportunity to experience, we can decide to agree with others or go our own way.

[Karmachanic]

And having acquired said Grail, ones fountain pen wishes are fulfilled and sated. Penvana attained. Heavenly blissful stillness!

[Addertooth]

Ahhh, words... we are bantering the actual meaning of words. Which is to say, we are discussing our feelings about what words should mean. We are exposing our values and upbringing doing so.

 

The Grail Cup. Only one exists, it is ancient, irreplaceable, hidden and requires questing to obtain. It is embued with special abilities not found in other lesser cups. You can't go out and BUY one every day, even if you are amazingly wealthy. The Rosetta Stone is a Grail artifact, a novelty shop reprint of the Constitution is not a Grail Artifact (no matter how badly you want it).

 

If Grail Cup replicas were available, and could be purchased online for a specific sum, every day of the week... then it would miss some of the characteristics associated with a grail item.

If money is the limit in obtaining an item, then MONEY is simply the grail, and not the item purchased with it. If money is the grail, then the pen is simply "desired/expensive".

 

We live in a time of bastardization of the language. The word LOVE, can be ascribed to a feeling for a creamy pudding.. but really? Would you REALLY lay down your life for that pudding as you would a child or a spouse? We have lost the ability to express "desire or want". We over-reach and use larger terms for lesser things. If I can buy it any day of the week, providing my wallet is thick enough... it is NOT a grail item.

 

When we over-use a word, we diminish the value and meaning of the word. When we chip away at the value of a word, it will eventually become meaningless, and we have discussions, much like we are having right now. What some people think of as "grail pens" are simply "highly desired pens", as they can be ordered any given day of the week. They can be described as "the pen I currently want the most". Much like how a teenage girl is "in love with Bobby", who will be replaced with Larry in 3 weeks.

Use important words for important things. Use lesser words for lesser things. And yes, I have spent months looking for just one good example of a specific pen... but even that is not a Grail pen, it must have characteristics beyond that, to be a Grail Pen.

 

Summary: Just because some bloggers misuse a word, does not change the actual meaning of a word. A Cow does not becomes a Dog, simply because I named it Rover.

Edited January 18, 2020 by Addertooth

[hsianloon]

The term has been so overused that it's original meaning has been diluted to the point of being the ultimate homeopathic remedy.

 

I see preppies, Lamy 2000s, etc being called grail pens.

 

But I suppose it's all about what financial status you're coming from. Some people are normalising spending north of 600usd on urushi pens, when a Wing Sung can write just as well and hold a larger ink capacity.

 

My most expensive pen ever was the Montblanc WE George Bernard Shaw, for 650USD. I dont know what possessed me to buy it, but I could probably never do it again, so everything costing more could be a grail pen for me.

[ethernautrix]

In general, I also like A Smug Dill's posts. Just throwing that out there.

 

As for this topic... I think I discovered my "grail" by accident.

 

Short version: Pilot 823 amber (PO) and NOT a Nakaya Piccolo Cigar (either unpolished shu (which I have) or kuro-tamenuri (which I lost exactly a year ago tomorrow). Oh right... it was after I lost the Piccolo that I bought the 823.

 

I suppose, technically, my grail (with angel chorus) pen is a Nakaya Piccolo Cigar ED (or vac-fill with removable stopper O ring) with a semi-transparent barrel and kuro-tamenuri urushi cap and barrel end and end-cap with a Pilot PO nib. Probably never going to get that, but not giving up on the idea of it (or some variation).

 

My point (lost in the long version that I deleted, you're welcome!) is that the 823 didn't arrive as a grail, even after I swapped in the PO nib. It was only after using it for... about ten months (sooner, actually) that I realized, Heeeey, this is it. Where's the fork? I'm done.

 

So, for me, the grail experience was in recognizing what I already had, even though it didn't fit the form I expected.

 

ETA: Heh. I started this before Karmachanic posted.

 

ETA: Aaand... I agree with Addertooth about the dilution of meaning. Yes, language changes, but it used to take so much longer....

Edited January 18, 2020 by ethernautrix

[senzen]

Depends on who's looking, for what, and who's answering; a few people on youtube or forums may not be representative of all users. This was very clear in photography, most people posting are complaining, while there are many more users too busy actually taking photos to spend time complaining (and even more taking the same banal shots with their phones).

 

Then there are ingrained or unthought biases, a grail pen might be assumed to be synonymous with the most expensive models, or a vocal group might insist on flexibility, which may mean very little to light hand writers; while there are many subsegments unrepresented, for instance some of my grail pens are the ones which make certain inks look a certain way (Professional Gear M + Tsuyu Kusa), or pens in a specific finish or colour which are not super expensive: solid blue Pelikans, black and rhodhium Carènes, wood Ambitions, Ciselé 75s, silver Vacumatics .

[peroride]

And having acquired said Grail, ones fountain pen wishes are fulfilled and sated. Penvana attained. Heavenly blissful stillness!

 

I can relate to this sentiment as a user of fountain pens, while not blissful, it feels more like still contentment.

 

After obtaining my grail [1] there was a sense of immortality, fashioned to hand, lines appointed to my favor, a tool that is truly a distillation of the journey that forged it. That said, I used to think grail in terms of valuable. Like what pen or pens would I carry out of the burning home variety.

 

Interestingly, that has changed as I think the journey to obtain the grail is far more valued. That is not to say, I'm not taking it with me but rather I am at peace having known through experience experiment and $$$$ what satisfaction is attained. It is a feeling of "ah" that is what I've been searching for.

 

In a way, any pen (tool) can be a grail, you just have to get in the right mindset.

 

While I still enjoy revisiting novelty in the hobby, the pulling desire has greatly lessened, research, forum engagement, etc.

 

I can let go; assured nothing need to be overcome again, just additive interesting manifestations of sameness.

 

I've heard others share the same experience: you get it = good and done

 

Need there be anything else? which is a user oriented question.

 

As a collector, well, I would not know. I have many, far too many pens. They were the trial runs for the grail journey. I would guess a collector, the journey would be endless,

 

As for the skew of moderns vs vintage:

 

Per my confirmation bias, I'm new at the hobby and don't consider myself as a collector, more as a user. As such, I think there are many coming into the hobby more user than collector oriented. Switch over from ballpoint to those epiphanic fountain pen writing experiences can contribute to high praise of what some may not consider grail-y by personal definition.

 

Where do people get their pens? Is vintage more readily available than modern? I think not in the retail scene, online and off. How do they learn about them? Who or what influences?

 

So more users, get modern pens, more readily available, with limited knowledge and want to share their ecstatic fulfillment amplified by social media is one line of thought to slant said grail pens skewing toward moderns over vintage. Share your own hypotheses.

 

Maybe as new users mature or their tastes become refined over experience does the tail end of the curve get recognized: more vintage - deco bands, duofolds, waterman pinks, etc

 

Let's enjoy the journey at wherever; together!

 

[1] Grail: YMMV A pen I searched and waited for, through the trials of measured experience across my collection refined for a Goldilocks fit

Holy grail: the one that choose me.