Jump to content

The Fountain Pen Network uses (functional) cookies. Read the FPN Privacy Policy for more info.  To remove this message, please click here to accept the use of cookies


Registration on the Fountain Pen Network

Dearest Visitor of the little Fountain Pen Nut house on the digital prairie,

Due to the enormous influx of spammers, it is no longer possible to handle valditions in the traditional way. For registrations we therefore kindly and respectfully request you to send an email with your request to our especially created email address. This email address is register at fountainpennetwork dot com. Please include your desired user name, and after validation we will send you a return email containing the validation key, normally wiithin a week.

Thank you very much in advance!
The FPN Admin Team






Photo

Moonman Leonardo (800)


  • Please log in to reply
72 replies to this topic

#21 mauckcg

mauckcg

    Vintage

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 446 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 15 January 2020 - 21:03

 

this is the part I don't understand

they have experience by now, they have had a go at any design, they are in some way renowned by now as a Chinese pen making company that at last has steered towards better quality, isn't it time to flood the market with their very own fantastic design at a cost that other cannot meet even at a level of high quality and finish?

If they came out with such original design and good quality we here would all buy a piece from them if not more.

When striking the right formula I'm sure they'd sell much more than copies!

what are they waiting for?

If people keep rewarding bad behavior, why change?



Sponsored Content

#22 MuddyWaters

MuddyWaters

    Collectors Item

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,011 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 15 January 2020 - 21:25

There really is no point to invoke the general idea that pens have inspired other pens over the decades. This is a plain copy which you can tell also by the section. There is nothing else to it.

Oh well

Link to a post about ergonomics I made: http://www.fountainp...with/?p=4179072


#23 Freddy

Freddy

    Museum Piece

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,559 posts
  • Location:Gold Coast, NY
  • Flag:

Posted 15 January 2020 - 22:00

'Tis Moonman just doin' what is does best...make Knockoffs......

 

      Fred



#24 mke

mke

    Read my lips: No more (pens/inks/paper)

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,466 posts
  • Location:Touchdown town in the north-east of Tokyo

Posted 15 January 2020 - 22:16

Apart from the ethics, did Leonardo protect their design? Could they even protect their design?

A registration of the design would need to show how it is different from pen designs until now. This is where the inspiration comes to work.
Question: apart from being an eye-pleasing pen, is the Leonardo design original?

However, if Leonardo has the design protected they can go after Moonman.

It seems that Moonman starts to become a copycat producer. If you don't like such copying, tell the ebay shops who sell this copy, tell Moonman - and buy other brands for some time. That might educate them that there are limits.

#25 sansenri

sansenri

    Antique

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,789 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 15 January 2020 - 22:42

I don't think that is the point, some areas of the world live on copying industrial ideas, in their country it's not illegal, and is probably looked favorably upon by authorities as it brings money and labour. No point in trying to stop them, it's a lost battle.

 

It just surprises me how Moonman does not understand that they very probably lost an opportunity to gain more prestige, popularity and business by not making the effort of coming up with an own design (to be proud of, and to promote their skills).



#26 sansenri

sansenri

    Antique

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,789 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 15 January 2020 - 22:45

by the way, the Leonardo Momento zero design is inspired by Delta, check out the Delta the Journal.

It's the same pen with a few well studied modifications.



#27 Driften

Driften

    Antique

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,993 posts
  • Location:Issaquah, WA
  • Flag:

Posted 15 January 2020 - 22:59

by the way, the Leonardo Momento zero design is inspired by Delta, check out the Delta the Journal.

It's the same pen with a few well studied modifications.

 

 

Since Leonardo is made up from ex-Delta employees it make sense they carried over the design.



#28 Mech-for-i

Mech-for-i

    Antique

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,195 posts
  • Location:Hong Kong
  • Flag:

Posted 15 January 2020 - 23:22

I don't think that is the point, some areas of the world live on copying industrial ideas, in their country it's not illegal, and is probably looked favorably upon by authorities as it brings money and labour. No point in trying to stop them, it's a lost battle.

 

It just surprises me how Moonman does not understand that they very probably lost an opportunity to gain more prestige, popularity and business by not making the effort of coming up with an own design (to be proud of, and to promote their skills).

The likely answer is well, likely to be much simpler , they are after the volume of sale, not prestige, not anything else .. and that is a rooted issue with market perception and expectation. Take Moonman , they had some original design, and they had some copycat styled pen , say but if the market reward them for the copying ( many buy the M600 ) and not their originality ( less people buy the say N3, or M5 ) then it tell them the market just want those. If originality does not bring in increased value / volume of sale then the industry will not innovate and improve and that's part of how the whole fountain pen market and especially Chinese fountain pen market are for most part. And worse still anything they put out new and original are inherently put as copies ( even though its not ) the M6 is perhaps the classic sample, as soon as its out its been shouted copying KOP from Sailor but in reality having both pen I can say they are different styled and different profiled. And bearing such and a home grown mechanism the market do not allow them the option to price it higher ( thus bring in more volume of business / Value to the business ) even though they made some advance into the model vs older ones. And yet at the same time when they put out things like the C1 people flock to buy it and the M600 ... guess what the market tell the Mfr ... satirical but factual


Edited by Mech-for-i, 16 January 2020 - 08:02.


#29 clear1

clear1

    Extremely Rare

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 277 posts

Posted 16 January 2020 - 02:26

by the way, the Leonardo Momento zero design is inspired by Delta, check out the Delta the Journal.

It's the same pen with a few well studied modifications.

I think I heard that Salvatore, CEO of Lenardo, designed both the Jounal and Momento Zero.



#30 Freddy

Freddy

    Museum Piece

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,559 posts
  • Location:Gold Coast, NY
  • Flag:

Posted 16 January 2020 - 02:52

by the way, the Leonardo Momento zero design is inspired by Delta, check out the Delta the Journal.

It's the same pen with a few well studied modifications.

 

I think I heard that Salvatore, CEO of Lenardo, designed both the Jounal and Momento Zero.

Have you read the interview with the founders of Leonardo Officina at Giardino Italiano Blog with Susanna Buffo

 

http://blog.giardino...h-the-founders/

 

  Fred



#31 clear1

clear1

    Extremely Rare

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 277 posts

Posted 16 January 2020 - 04:41

 

Have you read the interview with the founders of Leonardo Officina at Giardino Italiano Blog with Susanna Buffo

 

http://blog.giardino...h-the-founders/

 

  Fred

Oh yes. That's where I got the information, I guess. :)



#32 sansenri

sansenri

    Antique

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,789 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 16 January 2020 - 21:40

 

 

Since Leonardo is made up from ex-Delta employees it make sense they carried over the design.

Yes, check my other post today in the Leonardo photo thread, Salvatore Matrone, Ciro Matrone (one of the founders of Delta)'s son, was working in Delta in the design dept., he had a lot to do with the design of the Journal, among other Delta designs...

so it sounds as he has good rights...



#33 sansenri

sansenri

    Antique

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,789 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 16 January 2020 - 21:41

 

Have you read the interview with the founders of Leonardo Officina at Giardino Italiano Blog with Susanna Buffo

 

http://blog.giardino...h-the-founders/

 

  Fred

yes, right



#34 sansenri

sansenri

    Antique

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,789 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 16 January 2020 - 21:46

The likely answer is well, likely to be much simpler , they are after the volume of sale, not prestige, not anything else .. and that is a rooted issue with market perception and expectation. Take Moonman , they had some original design, and they had some copycat styled pen , say but if the market reward them for the copying ( many buy the M600 ) and not their originality ( less people buy the say N3, or M5 ) then it tell them the market just want those. If originality does not bring in increased value / volume of sale then the industry will not innovate and improve and that's part of how the whole fountain pen market and especially Chinese fountain pen market are for most part. And worse still anything they put out new and original are inherently put as copies ( even though its not ) the M6 is perhaps the classic sample, as soon as its out its been shouted copying KOP from Sailor but in reality having both pen I can say they are different styled and different profiled. And bearing such and a home grown mechanism the market do not allow them the option to price it higher ( thus bring in more volume of business / Value to the business ) even though they made some advance into the model vs older ones. And yet at the same time when they put out things like the C1 people flock to buy it and the M600 ... guess what the market tell the Mfr ... satirical but factual

 

yes, a bit sad really, perhaps too early, or just too accustomed to bite and run...

sad, because I had the impression if anyone could make the leap to design the most desirable and original Chinese pen yet, it's probably Moonman...


Edited by sansenri, 16 January 2020 - 21:53.


#35 Mech-for-i

Mech-for-i

    Antique

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,195 posts
  • Location:Hong Kong
  • Flag:

Posted 17 January 2020 - 06:55

 

yes, a bit sad really, perhaps too early, or just too accustomed to bite and run...

..

I say both and also some others , especially the foster of industrial culture and branding , which the whole Chinese industrial sector lacks



#36 Ted A

Ted A

    Collectors Item

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,451 posts
  • Location:Minnesota - USA
  • Flag:

Posted 17 January 2020 - 16:07

Isn’t the KOP a copy of the Mont Blanc 149?


To hold a pen is to be at war. - Voltaire

#37 sansenri

sansenri

    Antique

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,789 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 17 January 2020 - 21:43

Isn’t the KOP a copy of the Mont Blanc 149?

 

If it is, it's a very far off one

 

I think it's been discussed rather clearly

considering a fountain pen has a function and it's shape cannot steer too far from that function, resemblances will be somewhat unavoidable, and inspiration, both in looks and technology is not a bad thing, it's the base of evolution,

but exact copy...that's morally difficult to approve...



#38 sansenri

sansenri

    Antique

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,789 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 17 January 2020 - 21:52

btw 149 vs KOP comparison

http://www.fountainp...op-king-of-pen/



#39 Theroc

Theroc

    Rare

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 168 posts
  • Flag:

Posted 19 January 2020 - 02:44

I would point out that the Leonardo is very similar to some of Delta's pens and also to MarteModena's. However, the 800 is too close (down to the rings, the clip, all of it) to the Leonardo to call it anything other than a knock off.



#40 clear1

clear1

    Extremely Rare

  • Member - Gold

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 277 posts

Posted 19 January 2020 - 03:01

I would point out that the Leonardo is very similar to some of Delta's pens and also to MarteModena's.

I think it's quite complicated for those companies. When Delta fell down, one of the founders and his son&daughter built Leonardo. MZ is similar to the Jounal of Delta, but those two pens were both designed by Salvatore, the son and the current CEO of Leonardo. I don't know how it goes with the law, but if the same person designed it, can we call it a copy? Maybe a self-copy, but I'm not sure.

 

I'm quite curious about the role of Marte Modena. During the last days of Delta, Marte Modena seemed to collaborate with Delta. But suddenly at some point, they just made their own pens, practically a degraded copy of Delta pens. Anyone know what was happening between them?








Sponsored Content




|