21K, 22K And Even 23K Nibs?!?

[awa54]

The way I understand it the term "gold" has certain minimum purity standards as it relates to the legality of marketing claims in different parts of the world.

 

This said, I am of the opinion that 18k is even pushing things a little when it comes to making yellow gold nibs (white gold is almost always harder than it's equivalent in yellow, so 18k is still quite resilient), and yellow gets *very* maleable above 18k.

 

What do you folks think of high karat nibs? is it all about prestige, or is there any functional advantage to be gained by going past 14k?

 

 

Despite my misgivings (having re-rounded a 24k wedding band with my bare hands at work in a jewelry shop) I have an 80s era Platinum President inbound that's fitted with a 22k BelAge style nib, so soon I'll have first hand experience with a truly high karat yellow gold nib.

[txomsy]

Well, I do have a French Waterman with 21k gold nib that writes like a charm. It is a 70's pen, so from the time nibs had started to be nails, and yet it still shows appreciable (though not huge) line variation, so that extra flexibility of the little extra gold did play for good in that one.

 

Other than that, I think that it is a matter of definitions. If you are making laws you cannot allow some guys doing something and not the others. You do not want to consent abuse either. So you make definitions and apply them. Whether it is for jewelry or pens. That it has been a long-term issue is attested -if we are to believe tradition- by the fact that Archimedes' Principle was derived to calculate the content of gold in a crown for the tyrant of Syracuse.

 

Some countries decided that 21K should be the minimum for something to be called gold (785/1000, over ~75%) while others went for 14K (585/1000, over ~50%), likely in a trade-off between the interests of luxury sellers and luxury consumers. That may have interesting political derivations that fall out of scope.

 

As for penmanship... these rules may predate FPs (I DO NOT know), but in a time when most pointed nibs were flexible and you could get steel nibs that were even more flexible than gold ones, I doubt most people looked at the gold content to determine nib properties. Most likely they looked at the gold content as a sign of luxury (and the associated perception of quality) and status (kinda "both, you and me, have flex nibs, but mine is gold, and both you and me communicate by letters but you write yours and mine are written by my secretary..." you know, that sort of thing). Hence the luxury goods laws made sense to apply.

[Karmachanic]

is it all about prestige, YES

or is there any functional advantage to be gained by going past 14k? NO

 

Bear in mind that the nib tipping on a gold nib is the same as that on steel.

 

Additionally, if one is purchasing standard XF, F, M or B nibs gold does not necessarily perform better that steel in modern pens. There's an endless supply of gold 'nails" out there.

 

Personally I'd take Ti over gold/steel every time, unless it's vintage. Pelikan M20X excepted.

 

Current custom made semi-flex/flex are generally 14k.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Some countries decided that 21K .....(18K+750)should be the minimum for something to be called gold (785/1000, over ~75%) while others went for 14K (585/1000, over ~50%), likely in a trade-off between the interests of luxury sellers and luxury consumers."""""

It was France that said it had to be 18K/750 to be called gold. German companies made French nibs if they exported.

There ware some very good 18 K nibs for France, and I'm sure made in France....the Alloy is different than todays.....There were semi-flex and could well be superflex. Richard said he'd run into such in 18K for fountain pens.

14 K is a more rugged nib, even in semi-flex than 18 K......(outside those Richard ran into.) 18 K has a reputation of bending and staying bent more easy.

From my readin, I'd trust a 14 K nib more in semi-flex than 18 K in semi-flex.

 

Bock made a semi-flex 18 K for the 1000, Pelikan only made that in Regular flex.

 

There would be no 24 or 23 k gold nibs too soft....plated with that yes.

21 K Sailor nibs are reputed to be very mushy....and bend and stay bent very easy.

You can have 18 K nails....just as easy as steel nails..............and just a good....but with a steel nail you can buy lots of good paper and inks with the left over money.

 

I can find 10K (16K also) nibs in my 1902 Sears replica catalog....so gold nibs went from 10-21K.

Edited December 31, 2019 by Bo Bo Olson

[awa54]

Points well made.

 

There was a definite advantage to gold in the period before truly corrosion-proof steel alloys; it used to be that "basic" nibs were carbon steel or bronze, both of which corrode with ink contact, so gold was not a luxury item as much as a solution to making a pen point that lasted for a much longer time than one made with lesser materials. If you look at 1930s through 1950s Japanese "shiro" nibs, you can see the ravages of corrosive ink on less advanced stainless nibs... most are pitted and some eaten away to the point of destruction. Even pre-war European steel nibs seem to fair better, I'm not sure if this was due to ink types , metalurgy or a combination of the two factors.

 

If all nibs were nails, then there is no inherent advantage to any one material, so long as it's rigid and won't corrode... after that point "feel" becomes the question and personal preference becomes the ruler we judge that by; I like a lively feel to a nib that has any flex, I also like the idea that the metal can take slight over-flexure without failure, by all rights I should like titanium best, but my experience (limited to ownership of two Sailors and test writing with an Omas) has been that ti isn't at all to my taste. I also own a wide sampling of 18k nibs that range from rigid to flirting with full flex, my flexy Omas is the only nib I've ever sprung (easily repaired) and I blame the lack of pressure feedback combined with 18k (at least Omas' alloy) being significantly more maleable than steel or a correctly hardened 14k nib, either of which would have given me the message that I was approaching the limit before permanent deformation happened... This nib felt like a wet noodle, but couldn't return from the noodle-like line widths that the tines spread to with ease I also have a good sampling of 14k and 18k Japanese pens from the 60s and 70s, many of which have noticeable softness, in all cases the 14k versions give livelier feedback when written with dynamic pressure, the 18k nibs still return after flexure, but feel "deader" than their 14k and steel counterparts. IIRC Sheaffer made some 12k nibs for the "Sheaffer Jr." line in the 30s, most of my Junior nibs darken more than the concurrent and seemingly identical 3 nibs in non-Jr. pens, they also flex nicely, with a few being legit semi-flex.

 

So, for me the karat/purity matters little, though nibs that stay golden colored are more attractive than ones that darken with use (some old 14k nibs do this too), which means that any well designed nib that has good pressure feedback, good tipping geometry and is in a pen body I like the looks and ergos of will do, regardless of nib material... however I have definitely found more 14k nib/pen combos that meet these criteria than any other material.

 

I will admit that the lure of that deep golden 22k President nib has me anticipating the Plat's arrival, I just hope that it's a nail, so I'm never tempted to test the limits of it's resilience!

Edited December 31, 2019 by awa54

[awa54]

IIRC, there are places in Asia and the Middle East where 21k or 22k are at least the convention, if not legally required.

 

And yes, Sailor *did* make a 23k nib and 22k Sailor pocket pens aren't terribly uncommon, I'm not sure what they were thinking...

 

 

...BoBo, do you have a hobby? at almost 21,500 posts here, FPN must be your full-time job!

Edited December 31, 2019 by awa54

[Estycollector]

Good information and thank you.

[Bo Bo Olson]

IIRC, there are places in Asia and the Middle East where 21k or 22k are at least the convention, if not legally

 

...BoBo, do you have a hobby? at almost 21,500 posts here, FPN must be your full-time job!

A decade of BSing on the com....I write for a hobby....and soon should have something to sell. Taking a break from writing, I type here.............I take a lot of breaks. Beats losing my self in Forge of Empires or such. I use to belong to the Pen of the Week in the Mail Club....Pen of the Month too, so this is a good place to learn, and brag. ...and even advise. As stated in my signature....there are two ways to learn.

 

Good info on the 22&23 K nib... I'd only heard of the mushy 21 K one.

[Daosus]

I have run into problems with nibs being too soft. I have a Sailor 21K nib, which is an extra fine. That's relevant because the nib tines are very thin at the end. A bit too much pressure will spring it and then I have to go and get a loupe out to readjust it. Wonderful nib, otherwise. But, I can't let anyone that doesn't know how to use fountain pens try that nib. Not an issue with the many 14K nibs I own.

[awa54]

here's the image of that 23k Sailor

 

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

I have been retired for 11 years so do have the time to goof off here.

 

I am spoiled by vintage German semi&maxi-semi-flex nibs for 'soft' & extra soft..........in fact a 200's steel nib might be called soft, when referring to some normal Japanese 'soft' nibs.

 

It's not the 'soft' 21 K or better...but they are reputed to be mushy, lacking good spring back.Why go second class just because it's got more gold in the nib???

[Honeybadgers]

I have one 23k sailor and a 22k platinum.

 

They're both a little bouncy, not flexible at all.

[OMASsimo]

I think that the high gold content has nothing to do with functionality. From all I've read and experienced, 14k seems pretty much optimal, at least to my taste. It doesn't matter for nail nibs but for nibs with a little flex and spring, too high gold content seems detrimental. I do have one wonderful 18k nib in a French 1930s Bayard pen. It's a great writer but more delicate to use than contemporary 14k nibs. I think that's pretty much what Richard Binder described as well.

[inkstainedruth]

Well, I have *one* 18K nib -- it's on my Pilot Decimo (but it also is rhodium plated). It's an F nib, and a very nice writer. But I also don't try to push it around too much, for fear of springing the nib. I would think that anything beyond 18K would be really soft and easy to damage -- I mean, what if you dropped the pen? And all you're doing is paying more money to have it be "gold" just for the sake of having the cachet of saying it's 21K/23K? Might be okay for some bling pen you put in a case to show off, but I WRITE with my pens -- I don't buy them for the "snoot" factor.

Honestly, for the most part, my 14K nibs do just as well and are sturdier, and even a lot of my steel nabbed-pens are good, unless it's on a lower-end vintage pen (meaning 3rd tier like Arnold).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Honeybadgers]

Karat really doesn't mean much since sailor's 21k stuff is basically all nail hard.

 

As far as "normal" amounts of bounce and flex that we could expect from standard, off the shelf gold sheet stock that nib makers can get, I find 18k to be a little softer but mushier, and 14k is really where my sweet spot lies. 18k nails are fine (a-la waterman carene, parker sonnet and duofold) but they're mostly just for "name"

[Daosus]

Carat matters in that higher gold content alloys are softer. That means they have a smaller elastic zone. That makes them easier to spring. Usually, this is addressed by making a more rigid nib using a stiffer geometry (thicker, more curved, etc) I also think that 14K is just about right. Some 14K nibs are rigid, and some are pretty soft, depending on the specific alloy and nib geometry.

[Honeybadgers]

Carat matters in that higher gold content alloys are softer. That means they have a smaller elastic zone. That makes them easier to spring. Usually, this is addressed by making a more rigid nib using a stiffer geometry (thicker, more curved, etc) I also think that 14K is just about right. Some 14K nibs are rigid, and some are pretty soft, depending on the specific alloy and nib geometry.

 

It matters only when the nib is stamped/ground to be soft in the first place. You aren't gonna flex a sailor 21k nib anyways enough for the elasticity to be tested because that would be dumb and unpleasant.

 

All the alloys are relatively similar at their specific karat. Thickness and geometry are what influences flexibility right now. All nibs, even in-house ones (unless you're making your own alloys) are made from the same basic 14/18/21k sheet stock. Because getting a foundry to run a custom alloy would be way more expensive for a minimum order than the relatively small gold nib fountain pen industry could wrangle. Which is why we see so many "unique" ways of adding flex through grind, rather than simply recreating the vintage nib shapes and using those alloys.

[awa54]

In the jewelry industry yellow gold alloys are somewhat normalized, but white gold is all over the map, with alloys that value workability (maleability) others that seek the whitest appearance and many that split the difference... also in some countries it's required that the alloy can't have any free nickel (allergen). Each manufacturer of metal stock effectively has their own version and often several, even at the same karat purity. Heat treating and work hardening will also play an important role in the mechanical characteristics of a gold nib body, fully annealed 14k would be too soft, unless it was very thick.

[Honeybadgers]

In the jewelry industry yellow gold alloys are somewhat normalized, but white gold is all over the map, with alloys that value workability (maleability) others that seek the whitest appearance and many that split the difference... also in some countries it's required that the alloy can't have any free nickel (allergen). Each manufacturer of metal stock effectively has their own version and often several, even at the same karat purity. Heat treating and work hardening will also play an important role in the mechanical characteristics of a gold nib body, fully annealed 14k would be too soft, unless it was very thick.

 

and the jewelry industry often isn't concerned with the physical attributes of the gold beyond allergens (like you said, Ni content) and appearance. So you aren't going to see stock made for jewelers that is made to be ductile. Aut the jewelry industry highly outweighs the fountain pen nib industry, so the fountain pen industry has to buy what is likely jewelry grade stocks, whereas back in the day, the fountain pen industry was king, and they could actually commission their own alloys from foundries.

 

Also, no fountain pen I've ever seen uses "white gold" alloys. They're only rhodium, platinum, or ruthenium plated. Again, cheaper and easier to just use one type of sheet stock.

 

Gold basically doesn't work harden, either, at 14 karat. It's why steel flex nibs fracture but vintage gold ones don't unless they're pushed way beyond their mechanical limits. If gold work hardened, flex nibs would stress fracture at the breathers with regular use, and we just don't see that often.

 

Unless I hear hard proof (I'm still waiting on access to my university's X ray spectroscopy gun to test my theory, but I'm a chemistry major, not a material scientist) that JoWo and bock have their sheetstock made from a custom alloy, I simply don't believe that there's otherwise no good reason modern flex nibs just can't hang with vintage in flex and maintain snapback.

Edited January 5, 2020 by Honeybadgers

[Mech-for-i]

Take a look at dip pen nibs current snd old ... just how many of them are gold ?