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Noodler's Bottles Overfilled

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59 replies to this topic

#41 txomsy

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 09:26

I am sorry if my previous message was not clear enough.

 

There are many ways to communicate. There was once upon a time, long, long ago, a German philosopher by the name of Schopenhauer who was largely despised because he liked plain concepts. He was also bitter at Hegel having more students than him, and reportedly a misogynist, but his personal traits should not detract from the validity (or lack thereof) of his assertions.

 

You should try to read his "How to win an argument".

 

In the end it all boils down to whether "Truth" exists in itself or whether it depends on the words one of the speakers attaches to that "truth" to describe it.

 

So, let me repeat: just by saying "bad joke", "stubborn", "ridiculous", "silly man", etc... you do not strengthen your argument.

 

Truly, you can start a campaign against your chosen target using them and -almost- dash that person out of (or into) History by repeating many times your adjectives until they are so pervasive that any non-knowing-person (note: I twist a bit the language to avoid pejorative terms) will take them for granted and these qualifications become an apparent "truism". That won't make your arguments any better nor will change the Truth underneath (though you might occult it for a while to advance your interests).

 

If that's not clear enough, I would advice all those who complain about a full bottle to either buy only cartridges, get some experience, or ask others before disparaging a fellow human being. Cos', believe me, you are in for many surprises.

 

I (and I'm sure many others) have had half bottles of ink where it had dried in the cap and were tooooo hard to open (Parker, Cross, Waterman, Shaeffer, Montblanc...). Difficult to get one of those open without spilling ink out everywhere despite them being half empty (by the way, I finally solved this when I discovered silicon grease and started using it in the rim of the bottle, hopefully with no ill effects, but I confess I do not know if this may display ill effects later, though I -silly me- doubt it). Note that "silly me" was underscored because that was literally intended and not a style license.

 

I've had spills of ink when loading a cartridge with a syringe (simply when pinching a bubble in the mouth of the cartridge or in the bottle).

 

I had spills when filling a piston filler (or converter) pen after removing it from the ink (a drop in the point of the nib that would finally drop, or just before, while or after cleaning the submerged part of the section).

 

I've had the ink spilled when tipping a bottle on its side to collect those last drops of ink.

 

Do not let me start on the problems using eyedroppers, leaky pens, the ink spilled through breather holes, caps or bodies that unscrew with movement... And I could go on for hours.

 

The most I ever had was one or two tiny drops of Noodler's ink spilled on opening, and those cleared out easily if cleaned quickly. I've had much, much more disastrous spills with "safe" bottles.

 

I think that those, when one considers the whole view of the full fountain pen experience, are a minor drop in an ocean. Certainly, from my point of view, they do not accrue enough reasons to complain.

 

If we are to complain about seemingly "silly" (in the sense we would probably not make the same decision and therefore it must be subjectively "silly" from our egotistical point of view), why do not we talk about the other side of the spectrum, Stipula's Calamo inks,which also provide some appealing colors and whose bottles come only about half filled?

 

Could it be that it is not so much fun to adopt a pose of bashing some less known ink specially if you cannot attach words to an unidentifiable person?

 

But, hey, I am a silly old man (believe me, I am, and I am old enough to know I am) who started using fountain pens some 50 years ago, when philosophy was still taught at school (and Latin, by the way) to all, including Science students. What should I know?

 

And please, do remember I am a silly old man before getting upset and answering. I might not fully understand your finest arguments (no irony here).


Edited by txomsy, 29 December 2019 - 09:31.


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#42 Misfit

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 10:20

I got a bottle of Dark Matter, which I liked in part because of the label. I took it home after pen club, put it in the kitchen sink. I carefully got the lid off. My mistake was dipping the pen in the bottle. When I was done, ink dipped down the label, not the sides without a label. Its a long black stripe of ink partially on Oppenheimers face. I was not happy.

The value would still be there with a bit of space. I wish I had used my ink miser, but it might have produced the same result.

I wonder if I enclose a SASE, and asked Nathan for a new label, if he would send one.

Edited by Misfit, 29 December 2019 - 10:21.

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#43 TSherbs

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 16:07

I always enjoy your essais, txomsy!

#44 JonSzanto

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 18:20

Sarcasm is silly when employed in an effort to be serious.

We're on Page 3 and no one has yet to acknowledge that Mr. Tardiff could offer the exact same value-to-customer with a little less ink in the bottle and a little lower price. The people who have never spilled a drop would continue to not have an issue, but the people who have had messes occur, labels become stained, etc, would have a better situation. It is a remarkably easy problem to fix, and any good business person wants as many customers to be pleased as possible.

Instead, he chooses dogmatic, rather than pragmatic, behavior.


"When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick; and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."
~ Benjamin Franklin

#45 TSherbs

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 18:23

Sarcasm is silly when employed in an effort to be serious.


Who did this?

#46 JonSzanto

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 19:07

Who did this?

 

Please re-read your favorite essayist. It was a clever bit of writing, but in the end the gambit was overplayed. He won't mind me saying this, as I'm old as well, and have also been using these writing instruments for 50 years. That gives me the cred.


Edited by JonSzanto, 29 December 2019 - 19:07.

"When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick; and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."
~ Benjamin Franklin

#47 txomsy

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 21:37

If something I have learnt along my life is that I make gross mistakes more often than not (and actually most times). So it wasn't overplayed, it is the plain truth. That is indeed why I resent so much loaded words. I've been misled and have misled others so many times.

 

So, no. I actually tried not to push it too far.

 

From the rest, my experiences are true: I've gotten so many spills from non-filled bottles and from pens that a few tiny drops when I've been warned mean nothing. It wasn't any of those drops that stained any of my shirts or trousers. And I have a few stained right now. Can post pictures if needed.

 

Which probably means that in addition to silly, I am also very clumsy. And probably for that very same reason I prefer not to put the blame on others.



#48 wallylynn

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 21:53

I understand how bottles can be underfilled and partially empty. And how bottles can be full. I'm amazed that Noodlers can put more ink in than the bottle can hold. It defies the physics that I was taught.

#49 Freddy

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 22:04

  Outstanding...............

 

        Fred

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#50 TSherbs

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 22:37

 
Please re-read your favorite essayist....


I don't see any sarcasm in it.

#51 white_lotus

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Posted 29 December 2019 - 23:08

Hm... These infernal devices called fountain pens, by not coming with their own little tube pre-filled with ink, cause no end of worry and hassle including ink spills, stained hands and clothes (and sinks!), and endless internet angst. Someone should invent a pen that comes with it's own little pre-filled tube of ink, and when you exhaust that one, you just toss it, and insert a new pre-filled tube of ink. That would probably solve many of the problems folks complain about with fountain pens.

 

Oops. Someone already invented it and it's called a ballpoint pen. There's roller ball pens too. None of these pesky problems some choose to complain about. They sell 1000:1 over fountain pens, a minuscule niche market.

 

If you don't like how Noodler's fills it's bottles, then don't buy that brand. Simple as that.

 

Don't like that fountain pens are a hassle to fill, have ink spills, etc., well I can only suggest a G-2 gel roller. Some even have sparkly inks.  :)



#52 A Smug Dill

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Posted 30 December 2019 - 00:03

Maximizing ink volume is one thing, maximizing ink volume to the point that you have to open the bottle in a bag to prevent it from spilling is just unnecessary.

All these solutions would be better solutions than filling the bottles past the point of the bottle being full.

Also saying that anyone who has an issue should just not buy the ink seems like a poor business decision. If a fairly decent percentage of your customer base shares a similar thought, then I imagine adapting and making a compromise seems like a better business decision than just telling said customer to beat it.

  • You're his customer, and have every right to tell Nathan Tardif directly how you feel about the products and/or service you received from his company. Just be prepared for the possibility that your feedback may be ignored, or not ignored but attract a response you may not like. Getting what you like or want from the company is not your entitlement; and either giving someone a piece of your mind (as, you can argue, I'm doing to you now), or venting openly to your peers and equals, is about release and getting it out there; receiving support, sympathy or some sort of remedy for your "problem" is not inherently part of the deal.

    Whether you will feel better in the face of the absence of an apologetic, conciliatory or supportive response after voicing your grievance is entirely your risk to take.
     
  • You're a consumer. Please feel free to exercise your prerogative to unilaterally and arbirtrarily decide to whom you will give your discretionary spending, and from whom you'll withhold or withdraw your custom, with the clear understanding that in doing so, you are also the party that is imposing (additional) constraints on the range of brands and products from which you could/can/will choose to satisfy your material wants.

    If you don't like the way Noodler's Ink operates as a business, and/or it somehow frustrates you to deal with its products, then don't buy or use its inks if it makes you feel better to assert how you know better, and how Noodler's Inks has failed you and is consequently punished by losing out on its bottom line. If it frustrates you more to deny yourself the use of Noodler's Inks, then by all means continue buying, and make an informed decision to live with not having a say in how the ink is supplied. The choice — and compromise — is for you alone to make.

    There is no need to look to other customers/users of Noodler's Ink, or fellow members of the forum, for "moral" or other support. If you want to assuage some feeling of "the customer is always right" by any other name; we don't really stand ready to judge your consumer choices, especially if you don't put them up for discussion in an online forum. You don't need the numbers on your side to convince you're doing the right thing by yourself, do you?
     
  • It's a free economy. If you think you know how to satisfy consumers in the hobby much better than what and how you see Noodler's Ink doing, please feel free to go into business for yourself, be a competitor or even a market disruptor, put your own money, reputation or even "balls" on the line, and aim to be a bigger success! You could make a handsome profit and perhaps become wealthy while proving to competitors and consumers alike that you're right, or you could lose your shirt and convince yourself by your business performance data that you're wrong.

    You'll also get to know your own character better, when you get your share of customer feedback and reflect on your emotional and commercial responses to such.
     

Good luck!


Edited by A Smug Dill, 30 December 2019 - 01:11.

As always:  1. Implicit in everything and every instance I write on FPN is the invitation for you to judge me as a peer in the community. I think it's only due respect to take each other's written word in online discussion seriously and apply critical judgment.  2. I do not presume to judge for you what is right, correct or valid. If I make a claim, or refute a statement in a thread, and link to references and other information in support, I beseech you to review and consider those, and judge for yourself. I may be wrong. My position or say-so carries no more weight than anyone else's here, and external parties can speak for themselves with what they have published.  3. I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable. If it is something you can test for yourself and see the results, I entreat you to do so.


#53 Misfit

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Posted 30 December 2019 - 00:39

Friends, because I hope we are with pens, ink and paper bringing us together, please leave room for everyone to share an opinion. Not everyone here is American, but our way of life is based on honoring free speech.

I was thinking of replying with a list of all the ink brands I buy that leave space in their bottles. But instead, it is easier to list those who do not. Noodlers.

I hope not to have offended anyone.
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#54 Pickwick

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Posted 30 December 2019 - 01:51

Friends, because I hope we are with pens, ink and paper bringing us together, please leave room for everyone to share an opinion. Not everyone here is American, but our way of life is based on honoring free speech.

I was thinking of replying with a list of all the ink brands I buy that leave space in their bottles. But instead, it is easier to list those who do not. Noodlers.

I hope not to have offended anyone.

My dear friend,

 

Reading these threads anyone would think that Noodler's inks are the only ones available. No one is compelled to buy them by any stretch of the imagination given the overwhelming number of alternative ink makers. I really cannot see what this ridiculous discussion is all about!  


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Sincerely yours,

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#55 JonSzanto

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Posted 30 December 2019 - 02:18

I don't see any sarcasm in it.

 

Then we simply disagree, nothing more, nothing less. I, for one, don't consider him or his actions to be either silly or "silly", nor that he is a "silly old man". I do think that filling the bottles so much that they are a spill-risk is a very silly business move, and I don't think saying that is out of bounds.

And, with that, I best be out of here. I can feel the censorious tone starting to close in. This is all a very small thing, just something to speak of because it exists. We've said enough, I think, and multiple viewpoints have been expressed. In not too many hours, a new decade dawns, one that I hope will yield positive changes and good days for all of us. In the spirit of being positive and not encouraging any more negativity, I'll head for the exit and wish you all a wonderful 2020.


Edited by JonSzanto, 30 December 2019 - 02:24.

"When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick; and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."
~ Benjamin Franklin

#56 txomsy

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Posted 30 December 2019 - 12:07

On a side line, I seem to remember that number 0 started to be used in the Middle Ages. That is, Romans started counting from year 1, the first decade was 1-10, and the next decade will be 2021-2030.

 

I don't see censoring either.

 

But, from my experience, when someone uses loaded words, no one should be surprised or offended if that raises strong feelings from others. We are all humans after all (most likely, but I doubt any message comes from a 'bot).

 

No one other than you can be inside your head. Nobody can question your feelings when you state them. Not yours, not Nathan's. We can argue if there is ground for those feelings or compare what we do feel (I do not worry about Noodler's or Stipula's decisions), or, as the OP demanded, discuss what to do to deal with the issue (I just keep a "dirty cloth" or paper towel at hand).

 

Similarly, you would not like anyone imposing on you what to do. Nathan does not impose on you which ink to buy nor forces anyone to make inks the same way he does. He just offers a product the way he considers he should. I fail to see why should anyone be able to impose on Nathan how he should make his products. Or why he should change his business decisions (religion, political ideas, you name it) if he does not want to (other than by talking him into it in a polite and civilized manner).

 

Personally, I consider that that is not censorship. That it is just life (again, in my limited experience as viewed from my subjective point of view, which I insist, has repeatedly proven prone to be terribly wrong). Of course, your definition of what should be considered a fact of life may differ.



#57 TSherbs

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Posted 30 December 2019 - 14:15

 
Then we simply disagree, nothing more, nothing less. I, for one, don't consider him or his actions to be either silly or "silly", nor that he is a "silly old man". I do think that filling the bottles so much that they are a spill-risk is a very silly business move, and I don't think saying that is out of bounds....


Yet you both use the word "silly." I actually consider your use of it to be more pejorative.

And no one is being censored here. And disagreement is certainly not "out of bounds." I questioned the one claim that NT did this on purpose as a joke on his customers. It seems really self evident that he did not.

Again, I love that he crams his bottles full. That he is the only one to do so makes me appreciate that fact even more! I'll take a full bottle even with the small spill risk any day. Just my preference. I find it disappointing how many producers give us boxes and bottles and bags basically only half full.

#58 A Smug Dill

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Posted 30 December 2019 - 14:21

Again, I love that he crams his bottles full. That he is the only one to do so makes me appreciate that fact even more!


I have a dozen bottles of KWZ Ink inks here, and some of them also came filled almost to the brim.

I find it disappointing how many producers give us boxes and bottles and bags basically only half full.


As long as the volume of actual product is no less than what is stated on the packaging, I don't feel cheated or shortchanged. If I'm paying for 50ml of ink, it doesn't really matter to me whether that ≥50ml arrives in a bottle with 55ml capacity or 75ml capacity.

As always:  1. Implicit in everything and every instance I write on FPN is the invitation for you to judge me as a peer in the community. I think it's only due respect to take each other's written word in online discussion seriously and apply critical judgment.  2. I do not presume to judge for you what is right, correct or valid. If I make a claim, or refute a statement in a thread, and link to references and other information in support, I beseech you to review and consider those, and judge for yourself. I may be wrong. My position or say-so carries no more weight than anyone else's here, and external parties can speak for themselves with what they have published.  3. I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable. If it is something you can test for yourself and see the results, I entreat you to do so.


#59 wallylynn

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Posted 30 December 2019 - 16:09

 

As long as the volume of actual product is no less than what is stated on the packaging, I don't feel cheated or shortchanged.

I have mixed feelings about this. Technically I know I'm not short changed, but I *feel* shortchanged. For decades, I've been buying 1/2 gallon ice cream, and 1 pint ice cream, and 1/2 gallon juice. Now the "same" canister/bottle is only 56 oz, and 14oz at the previous price point. Instead of raising the price, they cut content. Because that's less visible.

For a direct inky comparison, the old MontBlanc shoe was 60ml. Then they changed to a new "shoe", raised the price, *and* reduced content from 60ml to 50ml. And that's before they also subtlely removed the iron-gall from the ink. Technically, everything is correct. But it all feels underhanded.

#60 txomsy

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Posted 30 December 2019 - 17:22

Me too. I know there is no lie, but hate getting bags that are mostly air.

 

I do also understand that for some products it make make sense. I'm told there is a reason for having so much air in potato chip bags. Still, I can't help feeling it as a waste. But that is my subjective feeling. And it must work for them if they insist on doing it despite the inconveniences to and complains of customers.

 

Still, I know when I get a box of some corn flakes or cookies half of it is air and the seller doesn't care for how much space s/he steals from my cupboard, how many contaminants s/he adds to our shared common environment. But that is their business decision. And as long as I have other options and am free to decide, I see it as their privilege to decide how they pack their product.







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