Needlepoint Grinds - A Tale Of Two Germans

[Dr.X]

This summer I took my humble Soenneken S6 to a pen show to have one of the grandmasters grind its nib to fine. He took the pen and asked me "why?" I told him it has a flexible nib - he tested it on his thumbnail, shrugged, and then asked me how fine I would like it. His wife showed me some examples. Hesitating, I finally settled on a needlepoint (it was my first and I was worried it would be too scratchy).

 

Still worried, I watched him work on the pen for the next 15 minutes. He then handed me the pen and asked me to try it. I liked it. It cost more than I expected, but this man no longer works on pens except at shows, so I said nothing. I ended up adoring this pen. It’s my EDC.

 

 

A few months later I saw three needlepoint flexible Pelikan 140s for sale on another nibmeister’s site. They had been modified for flexibility and tip size. The price was high, but they were gold nibs so I bought one. When I received the pen I was shocked. It was beyond scratchy – it was almost unusable.

 

I got my microscope out and discovered that the difference was not in technique – this pen was ground and smoothed perfectly. It was the shape that was different.

 

Below I have a few close-ups of both nibs, and some sample writing.

 

Assuming you forgive my poor handwriting, you may note that the pens end up with similar results. The Pelikan (blue ink) has finer fines, and a smidge more line variability. It also catches so many paper fibers (Rhodia) that a bolus of ink got dumped into the small b.

 

The Soenneken is a pleasure to write with. The Pelikan – beyond unpleasant. So I wasted $190 on the Pelikan but learned a valuable lesson: when I go to grind my own nibs to extra-fine I will make the tip look like a nib rather than just sharpen it.

 

Soenneken:

 

 

 

Pelikan:

 

 

Green ink: Soenneken. Blue Ink: Pelikan

 

 

Some of you may point out that the Soenneken is not truly a needlepoint, and you would be technically correct. But I write with dip pens and all are less scratchy than the Pelikan and produce equally thin fines.

 

-Nick

Edited November 17, 2019 by Dr.X

[alfredop]

That are very interesting photos, looking at them it seems that the tine of the Soennecken nib are not perfectly alligned,but that is has a larger flat surface with respect to the Pelikan nib. I am quite sure that varying the inclination with respect to the paper that you use when writing, you could obtain the opposite results (i.e. Pelikan nib writing smoother than the Soennecken nib). Did the nibmeister that grinded your pen ask you to write some samples, before working on your nib?

 

Alfredo

Edited November 17, 2019 by alfredop

[tamiya]

Might just need a bit of a buff on micromesh to smooth it out, perhaps,

[SpecTP]

the Soennecken looks like an oblique. as to the scratchiness of the Pelikan.. it may have a sweet spot that doesn't work with the way you hold and write. A bit of micromesh would solve that.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Soennecken is oblique....don't see any reason for that in needle point.

...Can't see the flair ...don't think, that oblique can give.....but then again, I seldom use even my vintage EF's half a width narrower than modern western nibs. Don't have an oblique in EF thinking I don't have 20-15 eyesight to see the shading flair in such a small nib.

 

 

Personally I chase shading, so needlepoint is where I'm never going.

For needle point XXF Japanese would be close....be XXXF in western.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Bo Bo Olson

[Dr.X]

Thank you all for your feedback.

 

Alfredo-the nibmeister did not ask to see me write. I suspect tat with many years of experience he's learned to grind what works for most customers.

 

To all - I had not thought of the angle of the nib, so I experimented with the Pelikan. Depending on angle it went from unusable to horribly scratchy.

At the angle I use, it is horribly scratchy.

 

Interesting how people look at the forest in those pictures. The answer may be in the trees. The nibmeister at the show also gives a workshop on nib smoothing that I attended and have a handout from. The overall shape of the nib is not as important - it's the writing surface that matters. I can assure you that the Soenneken does not write like an oblique. Its writing surface must be quite small - the close-up pics are therefore misleading.

 

The Pelikan is glass smooth. You can see that in the photos. So, IMHO, micromesh is not what is needed but a regrind to create a useful writing surface.

 

I've tried a few passes with 3000 grit paper between the tines angled to take the hard edge off the inside lower edge of each tine. No love there.

 

Then I did go to micromesh with the usual nib smoothing techniques well-described in these forums. Nada.

 

I then started to write on micromesh, especially the strokes that drag and dig into the paper. That failed, so I started to do the same on sandpaper, but then I became afraid so I stopped. T

 

hus far the pen is so unpleasant to use that I can't see myself using it. I should probably just sell it before I end up damaging it.

[Karmachanic]

Thus far the pen is so unpleasant to use that I can't see myself using it. I should probably just sell it before I end up damaging it.

 

Be sure to sell it without the nib that you have, sanded, micro-meshed, and so on. Either that, or buy a suitable nib to replace it

Edited November 21, 2019 by Karmachanic

[Bo Bo Olson]

[kestrel]

Thus far the pen is so unpleasant to use that I can't see myself using it. I should probably just sell it before I end up damaging it.

Would you consider letting the nibmeister who ground the Soenneken for you take a crack at refining the tip? You would have to wait until the next pen show where he is doing work but you obviously like the last grind he did for you. If you don't want to wait until the next pen show send it to Mike Masuyama (Mikeitwork) for a little corrective surgery.

[awa54]

Have you tried the penny trick on the Pelikan yet?

 

Is the nibmeister who did your Sonnecken RB?

Edited November 28, 2019 by awa54

[Dr.X]

Not sure what the Pelikan penny trick is.

 

And yes. RB. The man is a magician.

Edited November 29, 2019 by Dr.X

[awa54]

The "penny trick" is to lightly run the tip of a nib over the columns on the back of a US penny that features the Lincoln memorial. This and writing on the coarse brown paper of a shopping bag can sometimes smooth nibs that refuse to respond to other methods. Getting a little tine offset and moving the nib around in angle helps to ensure that any beneficial burnishing gets done to the entire tipping pellet (or at least enough of it to prevent the creation of a single sweet spot).

 

I recently used the penny method on a brutally sharp Japanese shiro nib that threatened to end its self by digging in to any and all types of paper with only the slightest provocation, it went from a terrifying, ink spraying mess to a well behaved EF semi-flex in one ten minute session.

[kestrel]

The penny smoothing trick. I haven't tried it but wanted to pass the procedure along. Some folks swear by it and others swear at it. I just use micromesh.

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/315129-nib-polishing-with-a-copper-penny/?hl=%2Blincoln+%2Bpenny

[jjlax10]

Do not do the penny trick it may take off the tipping. The Pelikan comes to a very sharp point, which is not how you actually achieve a needle point. That comes from making a very fine surface where the pen meets the paper. You need to have that sharp point removed with precision, not engraved copper.

[awa54]

Do not do the penny trick it may take off the tipping. The Pelikan comes to a very sharp point, which is not how you actually achieve a needle point. That comes from making a very fine surface where the pen meets the paper. You need to have that sharp point removed with precision, not engraved copper.

 

 

The penny trick, doesn't remove metal, just burnishes the tipping... and pushing forward firmly against the ladder of columns is a sure recipe to damage any nib, you only draw the pen toward you over them. Anyone who breaks tipping off a nib with a penny is pressing *way* too hard!

 

It certainly looks like there's plenty of tipping still present on that Pel nib to "un-needlepoint" it without any ill effects, but it's definitely going to take a fine touch and good magnification to get right. If it were mine, I'd send it back to the original nibmeister, or if you think they're not understanding your request, then a different nibmeister...

[WLSpec]

Interesting photos, thanks for sharing.