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Modern M1000 Nib Line Variation Vs M800 Italic Grind?

pelikan nib italic

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18 replies to this topic

#1 CursiveChild

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Posted 23 October 2019 - 23:09

What is the difference in writing experience between an M1000 nib, which is supposed to be semi-flex vs. using a M800/805 F ground to a cursive italic? i.e. in the line variation experience?

I understand that the writing feel will be quite different on the semi-flex M1000 vs the soft rigid M800 nib. Also understand that the M1000 is heavier and thicker, so overall experience will be quite different.

 

I don't own any italics or semi-flex, but in the distant future when I get to buy one of the above, I want to consider options. I tried a stub, and love it.



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#2 Lam1

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 00:08

The M1000 nib is not semi-flex. 

It is a soft nib not meant for line variation (it may give the false impression that it is capable of some flex. But, don't forget, it is 18 k).

 

Let me put in another way: if you put the pressure usually employed to obtain line variation in a semi-flex vintage nib in a M1000 nib, you will ruin it - that is the reason I've seen nibmeisters say that the M1000 nib is the Pelikan nib that they receive the most to fix.

 

Sure you can get some, but not much, line variation with the M1000. But if that is what you're after, go italic or vintage.



#3 BillH

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 00:37

I second that.  I think of the 1000 as soft and smooth.  But when I want line variation I use one of the IB or custom grind 800's.  Currently using an M800 Tortoise with an older OM and an M805 Blue Dunes with a B nib ground BLS by Pendleton Brown.  Both are a ton of fun.

 

For flexible fun, think about getting a 14k nib ground cursive italic with added flex from Masuyama (MikeItWork)    :P


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#4 sargetalon

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 01:10

If you want a large soft/springy nib, go with the M1000.  If line variation is what you seek, get the italic grind.  The writing experience is very different.  All depends on what your end goal is.


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#5 Bo Bo Olson

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Posted 24 October 2019 - 09:48

The old Bock made 1000 nib, the last nib Pelikan took back in house, was semi-flex, the newer nib is regular flex, like a 200's nib. (I have no idea outside of testing to tell if an older 1000's nib is a great Bock nib, or sigh, the only regular flex Pelikan.)

 

A decade ago or so ago, I went to my German B&M, to check if the 1000 was semi-flex like some claimed or only springy. Then that 1000 was semi-flex, in I had taken a semi-flex nibbed pen with me to test it against..

 

Before winning my 1005 in a live auction, I had checked the nib to regular flex....and the OBB is 1/2 a width wider than my W.Germany 600 OBB won at the same auction. Modern Pelikan nibs outside the 200 are 1/2 a with wider due to the fat blobby double kugal nib.A ball on top and bottom of the nib.

 

The old K nibs, were stub on the bottom, thicker tip and ball on top for those who liked to hold a fountain pen like a pencil........in those newfangled ball points were just coming in.


German vintage '50-70 semi-flex stubs and those in oblique give the real thing in On Demand line variation. Modern Oblique is a waste of money for a shadow of line variation. Being too lazy to Hunt for affordable vintage oblique pens, lets you 'hunt' for line variation instead of having it.

www.nibs.com/blog/nibster-writes/nibs-germany & https://www.peter-bo...cts/nib-systems,

 

The cheapest lessons are from those who learned expensive lessons. Ignorance is best for learning expensive lessons.

 

 

 


#6 CursiveChild

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Posted 25 October 2019 - 02:27

Thanks all. This settles it for me. Im looking for line variation, so will look at getting a grind to cursive italic when and if i get the pen. :)

I read on Niche Pens website that the old pelikan nibs were flatter, perhaps like you describe it, Bo Bo, and they changed it to the more forgiving round, for people not used to fountain pens.

#7 sirgilbert357

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Posted 25 October 2019 - 15:12

Thanks all. This settles it for me. Im looking for line variation, so will look at getting a grind to cursive italic when and if i get the pen. :)

I read on Niche Pens website that the old pelikan nibs were flatter, perhaps like you describe it, Bo Bo, and they changed it to the more forgiving round, for people not used to fountain pens.

 

 

I don't think that's actually a fact, regardless of how many times Bo Bo posts it. Since he asserts it so much and so vehemently, perhaps some evidence proving this assertion would be nice. Until that happens, I'll continue to dismiss the claim as his opinion, and one heavily colored by his own presuppositions and strong dislike for anyone who uses anything other than a fountain pen. Personally, I find his constant characterization of users of other writing instruments as "ham fisted ball point barbarians" rather discourteous and borderline rude. I used to use a ballpoint and found nothing about it, or myself using it, "barbaric" -- nor did I ruin the first fountain pen I picked up due to writing pressure. His opinions do not line up with reality.

 

In fact, I had a vintage M400 with a "flat" tipped gold nib in medium and a modern M400 with a "ball" tipped gold nib in medium. They both wrote EXACTLY the same line on the page. You literally could not have told the difference if the same ink was used. People forget that a ball is a sphere, and you aren't writing with the ENTIRE circumference of the tipping. So the modern nibs being described as "blobby" just doesn't line up with the objective, verifiable writing experiences I've had when comparing vintage and modern Pelikans.

 

It IS true the nibs feel different (because vintage Pelikan nibs were made different to today's nails), but the tipping alone having a more spherical profile extending further into space vs. a flatter one doesn't automatically mean the nib writes a different line. How much of the tipping is touching /transferring ink to the page determines that, and you just have to try a nib and see to determine that. In my opinion, more tipping is better, as it offers the user a nib with a longer useful life and is well suited to customizations that might require the grinding away of some of the tipping (a cursive italic, for instance).


Edited by sirgilbert357, 25 October 2019 - 15:21.


#8 Gobblecup

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Posted 25 October 2019 - 17:21

If I might add, in agreement that the M1000 nib is not semi flex at all but simply a soft nib, I have an M1005 nib ground to a cursive italic and it is one of my favorite writing experiences. The bouncy yet precise nib is a joy to use, I get the line variation and the softness. It is far more useful to me than a flex nib for everyday writing.
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#9 DonM

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Posted 26 October 2019 - 19:32

Recently purchased an M1005, so I'll add a few comments based on my experience.  I waited a long time to get an M1000 series because I don't much care for the black or green stripe choices.  Once the Stresemann appeared I figured it was time to purchase.

 

What I wasn't prepared for is how wet this pen writes.  Not much line variation, as others have stated, so it's no flex nib - just soft.  But what is does do is spread the tines with the slightest, and I do mean slightest, pressure, causing it to be a firehose.  Even with the driest of inks my fine nib writes almost like a broad.  It lays down such a massive amount of ink that it takes over two minutes for a line of writing to dry, making it almost unusable for me. 

 

I've spoken to a very respected nibmeister and he stated that he could reduce the flow some, but that because of the nib and feed design it wouldn't be reduced all that much.  Had I known this in advance I would not have made the purchase.  If a massively wet writer is what you want, then the M1000 will deliver in spades.



#10 sansenri

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Posted 26 October 2019 - 22:55



 

 

I don't think that's actually a fact, regardless of how many times Bo Bo posts it. Since he asserts it so much and so vehemently, perhaps some evidence proving this assertion would be nice. Until that happens, I'll continue to dismiss the claim as his opinion, and one heavily colored by his own presuppositions and strong dislike for anyone who uses anything other than a fountain pen. Personally, I find his constant characterization of users of other writing instruments as "ham fisted ball point barbarians" rather discourteous and borderline rude. I used to use a ballpoint and found nothing about it, or myself using it, "barbaric" -- nor did I ruin the first fountain pen I picked up due to writing pressure. His opinions do not line up with reality.

 

In fact, I had a vintage M400 with a "flat" tipped gold nib in medium and a modern M400 with a "ball" tipped gold nib in medium. They both wrote EXACTLY the same line on the page. You literally could not have told the difference if the same ink was used. People forget that a ball is a sphere, and you aren't writing with the ENTIRE circumference of the tipping. So the modern nibs being described as "blobby" just doesn't line up with the objective, verifiable writing experiences I've had when comparing vintage and modern Pelikans.

 

It IS true the nibs feel different (because vintage Pelikan nibs were made different to today's nails), but the tipping alone having a more spherical profile extending further into space vs. a flatter one doesn't automatically mean the nib writes a different line. How much of the tipping is touching /transferring ink to the page determines that, and you just have to try a nib and see to determine that. In my opinion, more tipping is better, as it offers the user a nib with a longer useful life and is well suited to customizations that might require the grinding away of some of the tipping (a cursive italic, for instance).

 

I'm less categorical but my experience is not so far off from what BoBo describes.

On the fine nibs the stubbish tip of the vintage Pelikans is not so easily identified, if you move to broader you can see the difference.

This is a vintage B nib (on a Pelikan 100N).

fpn_1572129997__pelikan_100n_nib_b_img_3

 

IMHO you CAN identify the difference when writing vs a modern Pelikan B nib



#11 sirgilbert357

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 03:41

 
I'm less categorical but my experience is not so far off from what BoBo describes.
On the fine nibs the stubbish tip of the vintage Pelikans is not so easily identified, if you move to broader you can see the difference.
This is a vintage B nib (on a Pelikan 100N).
fpn_1572129997__pelikan_100n_nib_b_img_3
 
IMHO you CAN identify the difference when writing vs a modern Pelikan B nib


I only had mediums. Either way, a modern nib can easily be ground to give the flatter stubbish profile if that is preferred. The nib you have there could scarcely be ground into anything (except a narrower line) because there is so little tipping there. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

#12 Rivarola

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 08:58

If I might add, in agreement that the M1000 nib is not semi flex at all but simply a soft nib, I have an M1005 nib ground to a cursive italic and it is one of my favorite writing experiences. The bouncy yet precise nib is a joy to use, I get the line variation and the softness. It is far more useful to me than a flex nib for everyday writing.

 

What size nib you ground to a CI?



#13 Gobblecup

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 18:36

 
What size nib you ground to a CI?


Broad
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#14 sansenri

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Posted 27 October 2019 - 18:59



I only had mediums. Either way, a modern nib can easily be ground to give the flatter stubbish profile if that is preferred. The nib you have there could scarcely be ground into anything (except a narrower line) because there is so little tipping there. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

 

OK, but that's not the point.

In fact there are quite a few people here who do prefer when buying a Pelikan nowadays to buy broader modern Pelikan nibs because they can have them ground to what they like...

 

the point is that Pelikan vintage nibs seemed to have a more squarish profile already when new, while the modern nibs come very blobbish...

Mine probably does not have a lot of tipping left, but you can see it's more squarish...

the difference is there and according to many Pelikan users was already there also when these nibs were new...

 

in terms of line variation

fpn_1572202652__img_3308-3.jpg


Edited by sansenri, 27 October 2019 - 19:01.


#15 sirgilbert357

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Posted 30 October 2019 - 14:00

Oh kaaaay, just gonna leave this here then...

 

A modern M805, with a medium nib, no special grinding - straight out of the box. I got this pen less than 6 months ago. I don't know what anyone means by fat and blobby anymore. Are we talking about how the tipping is shaped or about how it writes? There is nothing fat and blobby about how this pen writes. In fact, it has subtle line variation, as you can clearly see in the pics. I'm sorry to belabor the point, but you just don't seem to actually have seen what I have seen. In fact, your writing in the above pic looks far more "blobby" than mine. Could be the handwriting? I don't know. I just know that what you describe as fat and blobby does not match my real world experience with a number of Pelikans. And I'm frankly tired of the vintage snobbery acting like those who use modern pens don't have a valid opinion and don't know what we are talking about. There, I'm done here. You can have the last word. Let those observing these pictures decide what "fat and blobby" means to them.

 

Ink: Monteverde Horizon Blue

Paper: Clairefontaine 90 gsm

 

IMG_20191030_085212440.jpg

 

IMG_20191030_085244345.jpg


Edited by sirgilbert357, 30 October 2019 - 14:06.


#16 dms525

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Posted 30 October 2019 - 18:54

Flex v italic002.jpg



#17 Gobblecup

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Posted 30 October 2019 - 21:37

I use a lot of vintage pelikan nibs, some even on modern pens. However, I must agree, while they are very special, if you are writing in cursive the modern nibs are very well suited to that. And I do also tire of the voracious vintage snobbery often found on these forums. True points are sometimes made, but often in a realm where opinion rules, opinions are frequently stated as fact. Over and over again. I do not wish to start a verbal scuffle, but my goodness let people enjoy their pens the way they like to. We dont all have to like the same nibs. Some of us like both those nibs called blobby AND those called semi flex AND those of all shades of italic and oblique grinding. There is nothing wrong with that!
Gobblecup ~


#18 Tom Kellie

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Posted 30 October 2019 - 21:51

I use a lot of vintage pelikan nibs, some even on modern pens. However, I must agree, while they are very special, if you are writing in cursive the modern nibs are very well suited to that. And I do also tire of the voracious vintage snobbery often found on these forums. True points are sometimes made, but often in a realm where opinion rules, opinions are frequently stated as fact. Over and over again. I do not wish to start a verbal scuffle, but my goodness let people enjoy their pens the way they like to. We dont all have to like the same nibs. Some of us like both those nibs called blobby AND those called semi flex AND those of all shades of italic and oblique grinding. There is nothing wrong with that!

 

 

~ Gobblecup:

 

On my writing desk are fountain pens from a wide range of decades, with a wide range of nib sizes and customizations.

 

They're each valued for their writing qualities, irrespective of size, age, or national origin.

 

As I'm slow to catch on, it took a couple of years for me to realize that vintage pens were occasionally preferred over contemporary designs.

 

If others find pleasure in a fountain pen, no matter which model, I'm genuinely glad for them.

 

Happiness is so fleeting in life that when it appears, it deserves room to glow in darkened circumstances.

 

Thank you for your comment above.

 

Tom K.



#19 Gobblecup

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Posted 30 October 2019 - 22:15

 
 
~ Gobblecup:
 

On my writing desk are fountain pens from a wide range of decades, with a wide range of nib sizes and customizations.

 

They're each valued for their writing qualities, irrespective of size, age, or national origin.

 

As I'm slow to catch on, it took a couple of years for me to realize that vintage pens were occasionally preferred over contemporary designs.

 

If others find pleasure in a fountain pen, no matter which model, I'm genuinely glad for them.

 

Happiness is so fleeting in life that when it appears, it deserves room to glow in darkened circumstances.

 

Thank you for your comment above.

 

Tom K.


Tom,

Thank you as well for sharing your experience. It is much like mine.
Gobblecup ~






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