Should I Return Or Keep My Pelikan M205?

[Honeybadgers]

I bought a full bottle of Visconti which I had settled on and shifting/experimenting with a new ink is a little difficult at the moment. Except, with the same ink and the same Fine nibs I am seeing a difference in performance.

Thanks. I really like the pen and this is near ideal for my purposes. There is a simplicity to it that is hard to pin down. It just makes me want to write. Which is why it is frustrating for an amateur having spent quite a bit of $$. But, I see your point and understand that this is all about character. It's quite hard to go back to soul-less gel pens! I hope to get around to learning the tuning eventually.

I could do easily do that. Except, I am at a stage where I am not even sure I've diagnosed the issue with the nib correctly.

And, will I be able to make do with just that micro mesh or others with different specs?

Can you recommend some loupes? A decent budget one, and a more expensive one?

Exactly! I am better off just getting a new nib!

And looking at the quality of the out of the box performance of Pilot nibs, my next pen could well be either the Custom 74 or Heritage 92!

 

Is the visconti blue and m205 your only pen and ink?

 

Generally speaking, you should be able to rely on a pen writing well with its own brand's ink. Pilot inks always seem to play nice with their pens, pelikan with 4001/edelstein, mont blanc with MB, etc.

 

And while it's a very wet ink, there's a general rule (though it's not 100%, it's close) that if a pen won't write with waterman blue, the problem is with the pen

 

What country are you located in? If you're in the USA, I'd be happy to send you a few ink sample vials you could try in the 205.

 

Buy the cheapest 30x/60x loupe on ebay. micro mesh won't help with a nib that's too wet, but once you use the nib to align a scratchy nib (this usually cures the scratchiness by itself) if any smoothing is required, the mesh will take care of that.

 

If you are dead-set on making sure your pens are as close to perfect regarding nib quality control as is possible, pilot is your brand. A pilot dud nib is a rare thing indeed, but I will say that the flexible FA nib in my 823 is very picky about inks itself, and I know that nib is tuned perfectly.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Honeybadgers

[AMlines]

I don't see how anyone could fully diagnose your nib issues with the limited information we have so far. Pictures are worth a thousand words, etc. Just post back here if you get a loupe and tell us your findings. Also, if it is only scratchy in one direction (like on left to right strokes), then you might not need micromesh at all. You could just adjust the tines a bit (in my example the left tine would need to come up or the right tine would need to go down). It all depends...you don't HAVE to use a loupe to diagnose issues, but it is helpful.

 

Thanks. I'll get hold of a loupe and try this out myself.

[AMlines]

Is the visconti blue and m205 your only pen and ink?

I also have a Plaisir F. And yes, I settled upon VB as my go to ink based on the responses I got on my posts here.

Generally speaking, you should be able to rely on a pen writing well with its own brand's ink. Pilot inks always seem to play nice with their pens, pelikan with 4001/edelstein, mont blanc with MB, etc.

Like I said earlier, the first nib worked fine, except it is super scratchy. It is only with the replacement nib they've sent that I have these wet nib/oversaturated ink colour issues.

So, while I am sure using the same brand ink can only make things better, I am not sure that's the only thing going on here.

What country are you located in? If you're in the USA, I'd be happy to send you a few ink sample vials you could try in the 205.

I am in the US. Really nice of you to make this offer, but I have no time at the moment. I just needed a good FP and one ink to go with it. I know it sounds boring but not everyone can be an expert. The FP bug has however bitten me and I find myself unable to enjoy gel pens as before. In good time, I will get to a lot of the things experts do

Buy the cheapest 30x/60x loupe on ebay. micro mesh won't help with a nib that's too wet, but once you use the nib to align a scratchy nib (this usually cures the scratchiness by itself) if any smoothing is required, the mesh will take care of that.

Great, thanks. A loupe should be on the way soon.

If you are dead-set on making sure your pens are as close to perfect regarding nib quality control as is possible, pilot is your brand. A pilot dud nib is a rare thing indeed, but I will say that the flexible FA nib in my 823 is very picky about inks itself, and I know that nib is tuned perfectly.

Yes, sort of. This might be the best thing to say on this forum, but I want the pleasure of using a FP with the convenience of gel pens ;p)

I had underestimated the quality of Pilot, I have to say. I am seriously looking to get the 74 or Custom 92 if I can land a good deal around Black Friday.

[AMlines]

I just compared the two F nibs I have. Even without a loupe I can see an obvious difference.

 

The 1st nib (scratchy) does not have a rounded shape at its end when viewed from above. It just tapers off into what is a point.

 

The 2nd nib (the smooth writing but wetter) has a clear rounded shape at its end.

 

When viewed from the side, the 2nd nib has a clear tear drop shape, while the 1st one seems kind of flat, and again pointed rather than rounded.

 

Any thoughts on this?

 

Thanks!

[sirgilbert357]

Ah, got it now. Btw, I saw some Pilot's listed as having gold nibs but their nib colour was steel. I though a gold nib will obviously look gold coloured. Is that possible, or maybe they put up the wrong picture?

Interesting. I checked penchalet and Goulet and for the 74 and 92 they have no nibs clearly listed as soft. Which suggests the soft nibs are also not easy to come by. But thanks for telling me about this.

Thanks, look nice So, a hard nib will give little or no line variation? But, a soft nib, even if fine, will give some variation?

 

The silver colored nibs are rhodium plated.

 

You have to look elsewhere for the soft nibs. JetPens.com usually has them. They can also be found on eBay and from Japanese sellers if you are savvy enough to shop from Rakuten or other similar sites.

 

A hard nib doesn't give, correct. A soft nib is not designed to give line variation, it is just going to feel springy or bouncy. That being said, my Pilot 912 goes from a medium to broad with some pressure -- so just a little line variation. But that is not what it is meant to do...

[Honeybadgers]

I also have a Plaisir F. And yes, I settled upon VB as my go to ink based on the responses I got on my posts here.

Like I said earlier, the first nib worked fine, except it is super scratchy. It is only with the replacement nib they've sent that I have these wet nib/oversaturated ink colour issues.

So, while I am sure using the same brand ink can only make things better, I am not sure that's the only thing going on here.

I am in the US. Really nice of you to make this offer, but I have no time at the moment. I just needed a good FP and one ink to go with it. I know it sounds boring but not everyone can be an expert. The FP bug has however bitten me and I find myself unable to enjoy gel pens as before. In good time, I will get to a lot of the things experts do

Great, thanks. A loupe should be on the way soon.

Yes, sort of. This might be the best thing to say on this forum, but I want the pleasure of using a FP with the convenience of gel pens ;p)

I had underestimated the quality of Pilot, I have to say. I am seriously looking to get the 74 or Custom 92 if I can land a good deal around Black Friday.

 

I don't quite understand why you insisted on following recommendations that VB be your go-to color (visconti blue is actually not one of the "usual" blues in the market, it's a boutique color and does not play well in all pens. I have tried it and found it to not flow particularly well in some pens, and the same goes for visconti green), but now won't listen to our advice now. Quite a few of us have hundreds or thousands of pens and hundreds of inks.

 

Unless you're dead strapped for cash, just buy another small bottle of ink. Pelikan 4001 is dirt cheap and if it doesn't tame your 205, you have a bum nib that needs adjustment or replacement. It's even cheaper than buying a loupe, and a loupe/micro mesh won't help you with the problem you're experiencing now.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Pelikan-Bottled-Fountain-62-5ml-329136/dp/B0009WFNAQ/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=pelikan%2B4001%2Bblue&qid=1571631171&sr=8-1&th=1

 

This option is cheaper than any other right now for you as a diagnosis, and as a side benefit is a good quality ink that you can just use when the visconti runs out (or switch to if it works to tame the 205)

 

At this point, we really can't do any more to help without pictures. Verbal descriptions could easily lead to incorrect advice. Give us some close up pictures of the pen from the side (both sides) and looking dead-on.

 

And give us a writing sample. what does "too wet" even look like to you?

 

Please, just listen to us when we tell you that the ink is an EXTREME factor in whether a pen is "too wet" or "too dry" or even skipping or hard starting. You're telling us your engine is making a hard knocking sound but refusing to change the oil when we tell you to because you just put straight 60 weight in it and "oil is oil"

Edited October 21, 2019 by Honeybadgers

[sirgilbert357]

I just compared the two F nibs I have. Even without a loupe I can see an obvious difference.

 

The 1st nib (scratchy) does not have a rounded shape at its end when viewed from above. It just tapers off into what is a point.

 

The 2nd nib (the smooth writing but wetter) has a clear rounded shape at its end.

 

When viewed from the side, the 2nd nib has a clear tear drop shape, while the 1st one seems kind of flat, and again pointed rather than rounded.

 

Any thoughts on this?

 

Thanks!

 

 

K. I'm about done here, but I'll say this last piece: google is your friend. The shape of the nib is likely due to tolerances and, assuming the tipping is applied properly and not damaged, that alone isn't what is making your pen scratchy or too wet. If you don't want to get micro mesh, you can go to any store that sells women's beauty products and get one of those four sided nail buffing sticks. There are a couple sides on that buffing stick that are almost as good as micro mesh and will smooth a scratchy nib -- again, only do this if the tines are aligned.

 

And buy some different inks. Most Iroshizuku inks I have tried all flow very well in a broad range of pens, so that is one to consider. Pelikan Edelstein inks are another good choice, but will have varying degrees of wetness. Again, google is your friend here. Research a bit on any questions you have. Youtube has review videos, etc...

[essayfaire]

I am partial to Japanese F nib pens; that said I have a Pelikan 20something in EF that is wider than the Japanese F pens but is also incredibly smooth. It is my only Pelikan and I am quite fond of it. I have returned pens in the past because they just didn't fit my hand correctly, but I usually exchanged them for something else at similar price points. I think perhaps you are either not meant to have this particular model of pen, or that the merchant got a slightly-off batch - you could ask them if any other buyers have had difficulty with this model.

 

Good luck!

[Ron Z]

 

you can go to any store that sells women's beauty products and get one of those four sided nail buffing sticks.

 

OUCH.

[sirgilbert357]

 

OUCH.

 

What? I've seen them in use in the last two Dallas Pen Shows by a well respected nibmeister/repairer. Look, if the OP isn't going to buy some micromesh, it's the next best thing. Easy to pick up from tons of stores locally, no waiting for things to come in the mail. I didn't say it was ideal...

[Honeybadgers]

 

What? I've seen them in use in the last two Dallas Pen Shows by a well respected nibmeister/repairer. Look, if the OP isn't going to buy some micromesh, it's the next best thing. Easy to pick up from tons of stores locally, no waiting for things to come in the mail. I didn't say it was ideal...

 

They do work, but the grits are incredibly imprecise.

 

I have tried them out of curiosity and compared to a $10 set of micro mesh from 2400-12000 grit, they're genuinely pretty awful at the final finish.

 

You can understand why a professional nibmeister wouldn't like the idea.

 

It'd be a good enough thing if you were tuning pens under $10, but when you have a $90-150 pelikan, you need to start breaking out a little actual money on materials.

 

It's like putting a $2 phone case on a $1000 phone. You really should do a little better than that.

[A Smug Dill]

I'm happy enough with the job I did with an emery board and a nail buffer block on the 18K gold nib that came fitted on my Pelikan M815. If nothing else, it's an improvement over how it wrote out-of-the-box. There's nothing sacred about $90-$150 Pelikan pens or even $500 Pelikan pens if they don't perform or satisfy their owners, and nothing that demand more respect or consideration, if their owners hold those pens (or at least their nibs) in poor regard.

[sirgilbert357]

 

They do work, but the grits are incredibly imprecise.

 

I have tried them out of curiosity and compared to a $10 set of micro mesh from 2400-12000 grit, they're genuinely pretty awful at the final finish.

 

You can understand why a professional nibmeister wouldn't like the idea.

 

It'd be a good enough thing if you were tuning pens under $10, but when you have a $90-150 pelikan, you need to start breaking out a little actual money on materials.

 

It's like putting a $2 phone case on a $1000 phone. You really should do a little better than that.

 

 

I should really do a little better than that? Wow.

 

Have you not read any of my other posts in this thread? I said it wasn't ideal. I've recommended micro mesh. I recommended picking up a cheap two dollar pen and practicing on that first. I gave him a link to a loupe. I recommended he go through Richard Binder's reference materials and read up on nib tuning. I recommended trying different inks. I recommended researching on Youtube and Google. I recommended he reach out to nibmeisters and open dialogue about his issue and find out lead time for the work. I gave an example of how to adjust tines and a way to diagnose what a tine out of alignment might feel like. Geez, how much better should I really be doing Honeybadgers? Why don't you tell me so I can elevate myself to your high level please?

 

The price of the pen is irrelevant. The nib is a 20 dollar part - easily bought if ruined.

 

The OP doesn't appear to have a clear path forward, so I'm throwing out any easily accessible options that might spur action to address this himself instead of returning the pen completely or spending money on a nibmeister (when it might not be warranted).

 

Maybe I should have just suggested that due to the tone of the OP's posts, he is obviously best off spending 8 dollars to ship his pen to a nibmeister, then another 40 to have it tuned, and another 8 bucks on return shipping? But I'd rather a person learn something than just spend silly amounts of money to fix what might be super simple.

 

And I'm sure you'd have a problem with that suggestion too, right? I'm done here. Ridiculous.

Edited October 22, 2019 by sirgilbert357

[Honeybadgers]

 

 

I should really do a little better than that? Wow.

 

Have you not read any of my other posts in this thread? I said it wasn't ideal. I've recommended micro mesh. I recommended picking up a cheap two dollar pen and practicing on that first. I gave him a link to a loupe. I recommended he go through Richard Binder's reference materials and read up on nib tuning. I recommended trying different inks. I recommended researching on Youtube and Google. I recommended he reach out to nibmeisters and open dialogue about his issue and find out lead time for the work. I gave an example of how to adjust tines and a way to diagnose what a tine out of alignment might feel like. Geez, how much better should I really be doing Honeybadgers? Why don't you tell me so I can elevate myself to your high level please?

 

The price of the pen is irrelevant. The nib is a 20 dollar part - easily bought if ruined.

 

The OP doesn't appear to have a clear path forward, so I'm throwing out any easily accessible options that might spur action to address this himself instead of returning the pen completely or spending money on a nibmeister (when it might not be warranted).

 

Maybe I should have just suggested that due to the tone of the OP's posts, he is obviously best off spending 8 dollars to ship his pen to a nibmeister, then another 40 to have it tuned, and another 8 bucks on return shipping? But I'd rather a person learn something than just spend silly amounts of money to fix what might be super simple.

 

And I'm sure you'd have a problem with that suggestion too, right? I'm done here. Ridiculous.

 

 

Nibs for a 205 are $35-40. nearly half the cost of the pen. The price of the pen does matter because the nib is quite often EXTREMELY expensive to replace once you're in the $100+ range. Mess up that $200 M405's nib? you're out $100-130 for a new nib.

 

I wasn't insulting you, just echoing the sentiment that while they do the job, they don't do it well enough to be worthwhile on a more expensive pen. And apart from the cheap standard #6/5 nib pens that you can just chuck a new $12 JoWo/bock into, when you're in it for potentially ruining a $40 nib or more, why bother with the cheap option? I'll smooth a jinhao any day with a buff stick, no worries. If you're ordering indian or chinese pens, the buff stick is a great tool. But you wouldn't use a $20 watch repair kit to work on your Rolex, either, and you might not want to use spraypaint to fix that chipped paint on your brand new audi, even though it works fine for your old beater 1992 honda.

 

I see where you're coming from, but it seems like the OP is just being stubborn. If someone is that stubborn about the situation they're in, I'm honestly backing away from even recommending they buy a loupe or micro mesh at all. They really shouldn't be messing with nibs in any way if they aren't listening to basic advice such as "try a different ink"

 

I'm done messing with this thread since it's clear the OP doesn't really want to listen to the advice he's being given.. I didn't mean to offend you, but I wouldn't point a buff stick towards someone with a nib that cost any more than about $10. Beyond that, you might as well just drop a few bucks on a tool that does the job more reliably and consistently, and I wouldn't recommend anyone learn to tune a nib that cost more than $2.00. For the cost of a new pelikan 205 EF, you could have played with 20-30 jinhao nibs to learn.

Edited October 23, 2019 by Honeybadgers

[A Smug Dill]

Nibs for a 205 are $35-40. nearly half the cost of the pen.

Now that's an exaggeration. Even before site-wide or brand-specific discount codes that come up often enough during the year, the price of a replacement Pelikan M205 nib — in any nib width grade available including EF — is the equivalent of US$9.02. I can buy ten of them today for just on US$90 including shipping to Australia; that figure doesn't even pay for a run-of-the-mill M205 Blue Marbled fountain pen from the same retailer.

[Honeybadgers]

Now that's an exaggeration. Even before site-wide or brand-specific discount codes that come up often enough during the year, the price of a replacement Pelikan M205 nib — in any nib width grade available including EF — is the equivalent of US$9.02. I can buy ten of them today for just on US$90 including shipping to Australia; that figure doesn't even pay for a run-of-the-mill M205 Blue Marbled fountain pen from the same retailer.

 

Sources

 

https://www.amazon.com/Pelikan-Tradition-M205-Fountain-Replacement/dp/B00LADEW8C

 

https://www.etsy.com/listing/512475562/pelikan-replacement-nib-unit-for-m200

 

https://nibsmith.com/product/pelikan-m205-nib-unit/

 

https://www.penboutique.com/products/pelikan-m205-m215-series-stainless-steel-extra-fine-nib

 

https://www.ebay.com/p/1839828162?iid=362462255276&chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=362462255276&targetid=596465660628&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9033277&poi=&campaignid=6470719340&mkgroupid=77931583832&rlsatarget=pla-596465660628&abcId=1140476&merchantid=101702402&gclid=Cj0KCQjw0brtBRDOARIsANMDykbYR1G3anW3dfL-vuCAqlXXNNdL2XlADm5CZSZAQAcjxZOACGUw2SkaAuvLEALw_wcB

 

You CAN get them from cultpens for $21 shipped to the USA, but that's the ONLY source I can find that's under $31 w/o shipping

 

The cheapest I can find a replacement EF available inside the US is $31 USD before shipping.

Edited October 23, 2019 by Honeybadgers

[A Smug Dill]

You CAN get them from cultpens for $21 shipped to the USA, but that's the ONLY source I can find that's under $31 w/o shipping

 

Cult Pens sell them for £7.02 ex VAT each. Free international shipping if the order is £70 or above. Ergo, ten replacement M205 nibs of any nib width grade available for £70.20 including free shipping to the US (or Australia). £7.02≅US$9.02. Ergo, it's very cheap to replace an M205 nib, and one can almost as easily afford to screw up a few while experimenting with regrinding and tuning as if they were Chinese pens. My Delike New Moon 2 and Moonman M6 cost more than that each.

[Honeybadgers]

 

Cult Pens sell them for £7.02 ex VAT each. Free international shipping if the order is £70 or above. Ergo, ten replacement M205 nibs of any nib width grade available for £70.20 including free shipping to the US (or Australia). £7.02≅US$9.02. Ergo, it's very cheap to replace an M205 nib, and one can almost as easily afford to screw up a few while experimenting with regrinding and tuning as if they were Chinese pens. My Delike New Moon 2 and Moonman M6 cost more than that each.

 

 

But why the hell would you buy ten m205 nibs, Gil.

 

And for 70 BGP I could get one hundred and sixty seven jinhao nibs to learn on.

 

"oops there went ten bucks" is not even remotely close to a smart way to learn how to tune nibs as an absolute newbie. And what if you got it right the first time? now you have nine completely pointless spare m205 nibs that you have to resell or you just dropped the price of an entire new M205 for nothing.

 

MAYBE one in F, M, and B to complete the set (since they don't offer the rare BB which I can't find for less than $29 ANYWHERE) but unless you're planning on making an $85 order ANYWAYS with them, your logic just ain't right.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Honeybadgers

[A Smug Dill]

But why the hell would you buy ten m205 nibs, Gil.

 

Because I'm just that kind of guy, and US$90 is most likely going to be more (cost and time) efficient, on balance, than for me to send a nib to any nibmeister you'd like to recommend for that customisation work; and if I get ten M205 nibs, I'll probably end up with something that's usable out-of-the-box, some I can learn on and try my hand on doing nib work myself, and still end up with spares at the end of the day.

 

And for 70 BGP I could get one hundred and sixty seven jinhao nibs to learn on.

But I don't want Jinhao pens. I just want my Pelikan M20x and M40x pens to write the way I would like them to, and I have four of them here and will probably get one or two more. (I bought my M40x pens for their looks, and not particularly for their gold nibs. My M200 White-Tortoiseshell is refitted with a steel nib right now because that's my favourite out of the M20x and M40x nibs I have.)

 

now you have nine completely pointless spare m205 nibs that you have to resell or you just dropped the price of an entire new M205 for nothing.

I have at least a thousand dollars worth of "spare" this and that already, and that's just for pens, paper and ink, not even talking about running shoes and jackets. Another hundred isn't going to worry me.

 

Anyway, nobody has to buy ten M205 nibs if they don't want to. Buy another M205 plus a spare M205 nib from Cult Pens, and you'll get free international shipping all the same. Or a bunch of bottled inks, or whatever, as long as the order total hits £70 after discounts. The price of the spare M205 nib is still US$9; you just can't limit your expense for the entire order to just that because that's all you feel like spending or "investing" at the time of purchase.

Edited October 25, 2019 by A Smug Dill

[Honeybadgers]

You're holding your standards to some so stingy they won't buy one more $10 bottle of ink for their $90-150 pen, Gil. We're not talking about you, we're talking about the OP's options.

 

Think about who you're talking to and what will work for them, not your own odd nib proclivities. You occasionally forget that other people don't think about things the same way you would or have the disposable income you do. I have about ten grand tied up in my collection and I would never personally approach the problem in the way you described purely from a cost efficacy standpoint.

 

Learning to tune a nib is learning to tune a nib. it doesn't matter what kind of nib it is (apart from vintage flex or music nibs, which no newbie should try to tune themselves because they're just too complex to even understand what you did right if you did by some miracle get the tune right) and buying 10 jinhao nibs for five dollars before dropping $21 on a new m205 nib and feeling safe that you can tune it is an abject cost savings of more than threefold over what you're recommending. You can then throw away those $5 worth of jinhao nibs (or if you like they way they write, just hang onto them for #6 nib swaps, whereas the pelikan nibs are practically useless if you don't have a 20x/40x to put them into

Edited October 25, 2019 by Honeybadgers