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Weird Sensation When Writin With A Safari, Black M Nib


Cassotto

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I only own two Lamy Safaris. Being cheap pens, I thought I might use them for inks which I wouldn't use in more expensive pens (like shimmering inks, or inks that are known to be difficult to clean).

 

The one I got first, a couple of years ago, I think, is a yellow one with an italic 1.5 nib. I like it; visually, it's not my favourite pen, but I can forgive that. It writes well and gives no problems, and that's enough for me (provided the pen is not really obnoxiously ornate).

 

The second one is a matt black one with a black M nib (I think the pen was called the '17 Umbra'). But I cannot explain what I feel when writing with it. I only know I don't like it, but I can't say why. It's not scratchy, the ink flows well... There's no specific problem that I can mention. I feel a little bit as if the nib were too convex (but it looks OK), or extremely rigid, or I don't really know what. It's almost as if weren't actually writing, but dragging the pen on a paper while some ink miraculously comes out of the blue. Certainly, nothing I've felt with any other pen or nib, and something I can't describe better.

 

Does anyone know or imagine what I'm talking about? Are all Lamy Safari M nibs like this? Is it because it's a black nib? Have I got the odd weird one?

 

It isn't true that you live only once. You only die once. You live lots of times, if you know how. (Bobby Darin)

 

Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go. (Oscar Wilde)

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I have many Safari, mostly with F nib. Only three or four with M nib, and with a couple of them I experience something similar as what you describe. Safari nibs may vary a lot in form and performance, sometimes the tip is too rounded and the flow on the dry side and you have that effect.

 

I don't think because it is black, I think more a combination of dryness and rounded tip and thus reduced contact to the paper.

 

I edited the post to add that only two or three nibs of mine behave in this way, while the others are pleasant to write with.

Edited by chravagni
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I feel very similar about both my Safaris, one a fine the other a medium. They both offer the most uncomfortable feeling of any pens I've ever owned. The ink flows, slightly on the dry side, but no hard starts or skipping. But I liken the sensation of writing with them to lightly running a nail across a blackboard: it gives me the creeps. Even when writing on smooth vellum paper these pens do not make me happy.

 

I got these both around 15 years ago or so and stuck them in a drawer. They were the first fountain pens I ever owned. I thought all fountain pens were like that, so I shunned them until last year, when I happened to try a Pilot Metal Falcon. It was a revelation to me that fountain pens could actually offer a pleasant experience. Now I have around 12 pens of various makes, but I will not try a Lamy again.

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Assuming the tines are aligned and the flow of ink is to your preference, you can easily fix this feeling with a small sheet of micro mesh and about 10 seconds of your time...

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Is it because it's a black nib? Have I got the odd weird one?

 

 

No, the coating shouldn't be applied to the tipping too. If you wash the nib completely free of ink and the tipping is black too, then that's an issue that needs to be addressed.

 

It isn't weird, its just a variance. It can easily be fixed (see my prior post).

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No, the coating shouldn't be applied to the tipping too. If you wash the nib completely free of ink and the tipping is black too, then that's an issue that needs to be addressed.

 

 

On the counter -- I have an Al-Star with black-coated M nib... The coating DOES cover the tipping. No noticeable problem with it (other than another evaporated cartridge -- the pen spends its life in a cheap vinyl folio that only gets carried when I do major shopping trips [for comparison notes]).

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I have a Safari with a black fine nib, and I've never noticed any of what the OP has experienced. I'm somewhat less enthralled with the M nib on my LX, but not to that extent (and that's NOT a black nib). I have read that that nibs can be inconsistent, but the only one that didn't impress me was an EF nib at a table at the Ohio Pen Show a year or two back: that nib was incredibly scratchy and was on a *tester* pen!

My guess is like some other peoples' -- that it's more likely a combination of the ink and the paper, but might also be that the tipping needs a bit of work. I have read complaints about the QC on Safari nibs, but mine are okay.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

"It's very nice, but frankly, when I signed that list for a P-51, what I had in mind was a fountain pen."

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I experience a similar feeling with the Lamy pens I own with the slip on nibs (excludes 2000, for example)- they just drag on the page, not scratchy, not skippy, but like the coefficient of friction with the paper is higher than other nibs and they don't glide easily. It doesn't matter if the nib is in a Safari or Studio, the nibs are the same. And using a gold nib didn't appreciably modify this experience, either. Since I am a lefty underwriter and push/pull a lot of pen strokes, as compared to sweeping up and down as a right hander might, it may exaggerate the feeling for me.

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I feel very similar about both my Safaris, one a fine the other a medium. They both offer the most uncomfortable feeling of any pens I've ever owned. The ink flows, slightly on the dry side, but no hard starts or skipping. But I liken the sensation of writing with them to lightly running a nail across a blackboard: it gives me the creeps. Even when writing on smooth vellum paper these pens do not make me happy.

 

I think this is the closest description to what I feel, except that the nail on the blackboard sounds scratchy... I'd think of chalk on a glossy blackboard, rather. I'd maybe add that when I write with this pen I have the same feeling as when trying to write with one eye closed: it's like I'm not sure whether the pen will 'land' in the exact place I want it to, even though it actually does. And, yes, it might perhaps be described as dragging a spatula, though I somehow imagine the spatula to be scratchier. This nib is smooth. It's more a sense of 'unreality'. :wacko:

 

I've already tried three different inks with this pen (Diamine Tropical Green, Monteverde Green and Faber-Castell Moss Green, because although they aren't the sort of inks I intended to use with this pen, I received those samples on the same day as the pen), and I've noticed no difference. I've tried all three in two types of paper: normal 80 g/m2 paper for everyday use, including an ink printer, and Tomoe River which I bought recently. Again, I can see no difference as to how the pen feels.

 

And yes, as BaronWulfraed said, the tip is also black.

 

Supposing the problem is the too-rounded tip (and it could be, since I try to imagine how it would feel, and I imagine something very close to what the Safari does), will the micro mesh that silgilbert357 mentions solve the problem? I have some micro mesh 12000 that I bought so as to make some scratchy nibs smoother. Will that do?

 

I could try and take a photo of the tip of the nib, but it's so long since I last used my camera and macro lens that I wonder whether I'd be able to get a good shot!

 

Thanks a lot everyone!

It isn't true that you live only once. You only die once. You live lots of times, if you know how. (Bobby Darin)

 

Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go. (Oscar Wilde)

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You will probably have seen them but there are a couple of threads reporting similar problems. Here is one. https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/297578-the-lamy-nib-feel/

 

Judging from this thread and the one reached by the link the nib is made like that; taking into account the (pleasant but persistent, more or less irrespective of paper) feedback that the Kaweco Perkeo I carry to work has, and bearing in mind that the Perkeo was designed to have all the "desirable" characteristics which made the Safari a classic for younger students learning to write in ink (e.g. the section shape), I suspect that Safari nibs are meant to write (roughly) like that? In another thread it was reported that it was possible to smooth the nib out by imitating writing on a wet piece of glass, an age-old method for re-sharpening razors in rough conditions. (I found the topic here: https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/220836-bad-nibs-on-lamy-safarial-star/ ).

 

On the feedback by entry-level fountain pens I find the Vector (F) to give less sense of friction than the Perkeo (M). In contrast to your description of the Safari my experience both Perkeo and Vector are decidedly wet writers, although higher tier pens (pre-16 Urban, Sonnet, late 1920s Duofold etc.) are all wetter than my school tier pens.

 

*Edited for typo.

Edited by ardene
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On the counter -- I have an Al-Star with black-coated M nib... The coating DOES cover the tipping. No noticeable problem with it (other than another evaporated cartridge -- the pen spends its life in a cheap vinyl folio that only gets carried when I do major shopping trips [for comparison notes]).

 

 

Interesting. So they apply the tipping, coat the nib black and just sell it. It gets no finishing of the tipping after the process that applies the coating. That's not what I would consider ideal. Either way, if you use it enough, I'm sure the tipping will eventually lose the black finish due to wear.

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Supposing the problem is the too-rounded tip (and it could be, since I try to imagine how it would feel, and I imagine something very close to what the Safari does), will the micro mesh that silgilbert357 mentions solve the problem? I have some micro mesh 12000 that I bought so as to make some scratchy nibs smoother. Will that do?

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "too rounded". If your nib's tip is also black as you say, the micro mesh will polish that off, which could change the feel of the nib for you. It will literally take you 10 seconds. Why don't you just try it? No one can tell you how it will feel to you afterwards, so you kind of just need to start trying things...

 

When I micro mesh a nib that only needs a SLIGHT improvement, I literally do ONE figure eight at a time with the nib until it's where I want it...go slow and use light pressure and you'll see it really isn't that hard to get a good result.

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Interesting. So they apply the tipping, coat the nib black and just sell it. It gets no finishing of the tipping after the process that applies the coating. That's not what I would consider ideal. Either way, if you use it enough, I'm sure the tipping will eventually lose the black finish due to wear.

Coating the tipping is standard practice. The black Perkeo nibs have coated tips. See here: https://www.penaddict.com/blog/2017/9/7/kaweco-perkeo-fountain-pen-review

 

You can see that also on ruthenium-coated fps; my inference is that rhodium-coated nibs will also be like that. Examples:

 

Parker Sonnet: https://www.gentlemanstationer.com/blog/2017/1/9/pen-review-parker-sonnet-great-expectations-edition

 

MB gold leaf 146 with black nib: https://www.penworld.eu/montblanc-meisterstuck-solitaire-calligraphy-gold-leaf-fountain-pen.html?currency=GBP&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI0tDkrIGh5QIVjMjeCh0E7Q9AEAQYASABEgJRS_D_BwE

 

Parker Duofold (the blue chevron one): https://www.fahrneyspens.com/Item--i-16128

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Coating the tipping is standard practice. The black Perkeo nibs have coated tips. See here: https://www.penaddict.com/blog/2017/9/7/kaweco-perkeo-fountain-pen-review

 

You can see that also on ruthenium-coated fps; my inference is that rhodium-coated nibs will also be like that. Examples:

 

Parker Sonnet: https://www.gentlemanstationer.com/blog/2017/1/9/pen-review-parker-sonnet-great-expectations-edition

 

MB gold leaf 146 with black nib: https://www.penworld.eu/montblanc-meisterstuck-solitaire-calligraphy-gold-leaf-fountain-pen.html?currency=GBP&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI0tDkrIGh5QIVjMjeCh0E7Q9AEAQYASABEgJRS_D_BwE

 

Parker Duofold (the blue chevron one): https://www.fahrneyspens.com/Item--i-16128

Yeah, by "tipping" I meant the part that is finished for writing with. None of the pictures in the links you provided show the underside of the nib tipping. Of course it is reasonable to assume they just coat the whole nib, but surely SOME of those pens have hand finished nibs and therefore might have polished tips on the underside that remove the coating during the process. Either way, thanks for the links, it reveals a bit more about how these nibs are made, which interests me, and we can all learn from.

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Yeah, by "tipping" I meant the part that is finished for writing with. None of the pictures in the links you provided show the underside of the nib tipping. Of course it is reasonable to assume they just coat the whole nib, but surely SOME of those pens have hand finished nibs and therefore might have polished tips on the underside that remove the coating during the process. Either way, thanks for the links, it reveals a bit more about how these nibs are made, which interests me, and we can all learn from.

This video shows clearly that the tipping is shaped before the plating is applied. The lady putting the white sheet with the holes on the nib prepares it for a bath that will plate its centre with rhodium and make it dual tone. Both upper and lower tipping surfaces are covered in this case.

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ibLCdXFb4Fk

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So I take out my Safari Petrol which had that same black oxide coated M nib , I really was not aware of that before but now I try it and take note yes it feel as such mentioned .. then I take another Safari M nib on another Safari but its the normal chromed nib and put it onto the same pen ( and the same ink , and paper ) and try it. well its marginally better, less drag but still not quite the most comfortable sensation .. I happen to have all the Lamy Safari normal chromed / polished and Black Oxide nib from XF to B so I get them all out and try .. well all of them had this sensation or feel of the nib and tipping ... and all the normal chromed version of the same type of nib shown marginally less drag.

 

I'll had to say its a drag, not a feedback , and checking under a loupe I can see that the tipping got coating mark but where it was furthered polished / grind and it might just be that .. in any case Safari nib had always been a bit of under-performing AFAIK. I had quite a number of Chinese copy of this kind of nib that actually write way smoother, though they tend to be firmer too. I think the best description I can have is that the nib write like its scoring the paper instead of gliding over it

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I'm not sure what you mean by "too rounded".

 

 

According to previous messages, it was suggested that the problem might arise because the tip was too rounded so just a very small part of it would touch the paper. I was asking whether the Micro Mesh I've got would be right to try to flatten it a bit, supposing that's what's happening.

It isn't true that you live only once. You only die once. You live lots of times, if you know how. (Bobby Darin)

 

Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go. (Oscar Wilde)

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According to previous messages, it was suggested that the problem might arise because the tip was too rounded so just a very small part of it would touch the paper. I was asking whether the Micro Mesh I've got would be right to try to flatten it a bit, supposing that's what's happening.

 

 

Are you referring to baby's bottom? See page 7 of the linked pdf from Richard Binder for an illustration of baby's bottom. You might benefit from reading the whole pdf. It is very thorough and would likely help you understand common nib issues and the efforts needed to resolve them. Also see this article from The Pen Addict about baby's bottom.

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Are you referring to baby's bottom? See page 7 of the linked pdf from Richard Binder for an illustration of baby's bottom. You might benefit from reading the whole pdf. It is very thorough and would likely help you understand common nib issues and the efforts needed to resolve them. Also see this article from The Pen Addict about baby's bottom.

 

 

 

Yes, I suppose that's what people referred to. What great articles! I've only skimmed through it, but they certainly deserve careful reading. Which I'll do at the weekend (though I don't really know whether I'll run the risk of trying something - I haven't had time yet... To the naked eye I cannot say whether that's actually the problem).

It isn't true that you live only once. You only die once. You live lots of times, if you know how. (Bobby Darin)

 

Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go. (Oscar Wilde)

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