What Do You Do With A 1.1 Stub (Jowo)?

[pitonyak]

Expected answer: Lean to use the nib. So, if you have some pointers or links on learning to use a stub nib, please provide them.

 

 

I like fine nibs, so, I almost always have a Japanese F or Western EF nib in my pens.

 

Although I had used an M nib (or similar), I had not used a stub nib and I decided that I should give it a go.

 

Trying to learn calligraphy, so, I have used Pilot Parallel pens and I also purchased some no name Chinese pens with Calligraphy nibs that were dirt cheap and worked surprisingly well.

 

This week, I purchased some Nemosine pens with either a #5 JoWo 1.1 stub nib or a #6 JoWo 1.1 stub nib (as in more than one pen, not "I don't know the nib size").

 

I have writing samples here from two of the pens:

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/349321-nemosine-fission-and-neutrino-with-11-stub-nibs/

 

When I use the italic nib, the width differences are pretty pronounced, but not so much with the 1.1 stub nib. For sure there is a width difference if I write at a 0, 45, or 90 degree angle, but, with my normal cursive writing there is no significant difference in width noticed, and this is clearly not meant for calligraphy.

 

Also, some directions on this nib do not write very well, which is a problem if writing in cursive. For example, the cursive a, if I am starting with the letter a, will sometimes skip the top part of the a. If I want to write a b, I usually sweep up (loser left to upper right) and create a tail for the b before I drop a line down. That tail is often missing if I am starting with a letter b.

 

I suspect that it is related to how I hold and move the pen. For example,

 

Hold the pen at a 0 degree angle (wide part of the nib is parallel to the top and bottom of the page). Now swipe left / right. The line is very thin and light, and may skip. If I pull straight down, a solid dark line. If I press down harder, I can go right and left and get a line.

[samasry]

I claim no knowledge in this domain whatsoever, as I typically swim in the shallow waters between F-nibs and MF-nibs. I only try Medium when my daughter lend me her pens

 

 

However, few days ago, I saw this video and I thought this was the first time I get to understand what is a stub, oblique (sp.?) and all these fancy shmancy nibs. I apologize if this is common knowledge, but to me it was very useful video in fact.

 

 

[pitonyak]

Very interesting video. He had a very different take on what the oblique nib was for at least the one he had. My first fountain pen was an oblique has he had and I always had trouble with it and I never knew it was an oblique. Now, 30 years later, I am starting to understand and that video is the first time that he indicated that someone other than a left-hander would use that particular oblique nib.

 

I'm not sure what he had to say about stub nibs agrees with the stub nib I've been trying to use, but that could be because there's a problem with my specific stub nib. It also could be and this is perhaps more likely, no problem with me

 

Regardless, thanks for the Post. I appreciated the video very much.

[A Smug Dill]

I like fine nibs, so, I almost always have a Japanese F or Western EF nib in my pens.

As do I, as most folks on FPN who have argued with me would tell you is my bias.

 

Trying to learn calligraphy, so, I have used Pilot Parallel pens and I also purchased some no name Chinese pens with Calligraphy nibs that were dirt cheap and worked surprisingly well.

Calligraphy is a very broad discipline, even without taking into account writing in languages that are not based on the Latin alphabet.

 

This week, I purchased some Nemosine pens with either a #5 JoWo 1.1 stub nib or a #6 JoWo 1.1 stub nib (as in more than one pen, not "I don't know the nib size").

_...snip...

When I use the italic nib, the width differences are pretty pronounced, but not so much with the 1.1 stub nib.

As far as I know, Stub nibs are meant (or expected) to be more forgiving than 'formal' Italic nibs, at the expense of crispness of lines they lay down and observable line variation.

 

For sure there is a width difference if I write at a 0, 45, or 90 degree angle, but, with my normal cursive writing there is no significant difference in width noticed, and this is clearly not meant for calligraphy.

Again, please don't say 'calligraphy', but which specific hand or script you're trying to write in English. I have a book here (which, for the record, I don't regard as the single authoritative source) titled The Calligrapher's Bible by David Harris, but not every script or alphabet in there can be rendered using a broad-edged nib, much less one with slightly rounded corners (such as on a Stub nib).

 

I have received several Nemosine Fission pens (with EF, 0.6 Stub and 0.8 Stub nibs, respectively) recently, not counting the eight Stub-nibbed Nemosine Singularity pens that are still working their way to me through the post. The 0.6mm Stub (and feed with which it was paired, prior to being sent to me) is much wetter than the 0.8mm Stub, and end up laying down lines of roughly the same line widths as each other.

 

No, you should start with the consideration of in which script(s) you want to write, and then the characteristics of (the nibs on) the writing instruments you'll need to render that competently and effort-efficiently, and then match what you already have in your toolbox to your requirements. Nibs don't make calligraphy; your 'hand' and technique do.

 

 

Edit: Fixed broken markup

Edited September 19, 2019 by A Smug Dill

[pitonyak]

As do I, as most folks on FPN who have argued with me would tell you is my bias.

 

Yep, setting my experience level...

 

 

Calligraphy is a very broad discipline, even without taking into account writing in languages that are not based on the Latin alphabet.

 

I have looked at other alphabets, but I have not tried them; it is not my focus. I have tried types of brush pens and a few other types, just to see how they work.

 

 

As far as I know, Stub nibs are meant (or expected) to be more forgiving than 'formal' Italic nibs, at the expense of crispness of lines they lay down and observable line variation.

 

I have not had problems with Pilot Parallel pens, nor have I had problems with a set of cheap "calligraphy" pens with nibs ranging in size from 0.7 thru 2.9 mm. From that set I have mostly used just the 2.9mm. For the Pilot Parallel pens I have used the entire set. Just trying to get the hang of it.

 

Again, please don't say 'calligraphy', but in which specific hand or script you're trying to write in English. I have a book here (which, for the record, I don't regard as the single authoritative source) titled [url=https://www.amazon.com.au/Calligraphers-Bible-Complete-Alphabets-Draw/dp/0764156152/The Calligrapher's Bible by David Harris, but not every script or alphabet in there can be rendered using a broad-edged nib, much less one with slightly rounded corners (such as on a Stub nib).

 

I only used the term calligraphy to indicate that I was trying my hand at it. I have four to six "fonts" I have been practicing, but I am not really asking about calligraphy. Primarily mentioning it so that it is understood that I have tried something with wider nibs, but, now that you emphasize it, I suppose that my using a Pilot Parallel pen will look nothing like the Japanese stuff done with a brush.

 

I appreciate the book recommendation. I happen to have that book right now open on my desk since I was going through it and marking down their recommended spacing based on nib size since I am working on a Macro for LibreOffice / OpenOffice that will generate guide sheets based on font. This particular book is pretty good about showing how the font should be written based on nib width.

 

I have received several Nemosine Fission pens (with EF, 0.6 Stub and 0.8 Stub nibs, respectively) recently, not counting the eight Stub-nibbed Nemosine Singularity pens that are still working their way to me through the post. The 0.6mm Stub (and feed with which it was paired, prior to being sent to me) is much wetter than the 0.8mm Stub, and end up laying down lines of roughly the same line widths as each other.

 

No, you should start with the consideration of in which script(s) you want to write, and then the characteristics of (the nibs on) the writing instruments you'll need to render that competently and effort-efficiently, and then match what you already have in your toolbox to your requirements. Nibs don't make calligraphy; your 'hand' and technique do.

 

In my niaivety, I assumed that a stub nib would behave as the Pilot Parallel pens with respect to width. In other words, I would not have expected the 0.6mm pen to write a line as wide as the 0.8. With the Pilot Parallel pens, the line width is pretty much exactly as wide as the nib. As such, I expected a wider line with the 1.1mm stub. Your comments are both enlightening and educational. I really appreciate your taking the time to put them down.

 

I really did not know what to expect with the stub nib. I expected more of a behavior similar to the Parallel pens; nope, but maybe almost.

 

I will try to find someone local to evaluate how I write with the stub and then see how they write with a stub.

 

I expected that I could just write in cursive and have significantly greater line variations, but I am not seeing that. I am, however, having skipping issues, which I suspect is related me and not the pen. I might be rotating when I write rather than holding the stub nib flat on the page. With the parallel pen, if I do this, the feedback is immediate and in your face. Not so much, I think, with the stub nib.

 

Step 1: Figure out how to use and what to do with a Stub Nib so I know.

 

Based on the video referenced by Salmasry above, I found this video by Brian Goulet on stub nibs.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulnW4du1704

 

Clearly the Nemosine pen has ink flowing with no issues, the nib looks as it should (I think) through a loop, and according to the video referenced above the JoWo stub nibs are some of the easiest to use... the problem is most likely me. I can't help but wonder if the Waterman Brown ink might just behave in a certain way, if the Fission pen is just way larger and heavier than I am used to using, etc...

[Bo Bo Olson]

The skipping of part of a letter sounds like baby bottom.....and on a stub.

I don't have that problem.....

Have various Factory stubs a couple vintage US and a couple hands full of stubbed semi-flex vintage German pens.

Baby bottom is not something I'd expect on a stub, but I think you have it.

[A Smug Dill]

In my niaivety, I assumed that a stub nib would behave as the Pilot Parallel pens with respect to width.

Since you mentioned "line variation", firstly, you won't get the massive ratio of widths between "horizontal" lines (drawn in line with the plane of the nib) and "vertical" lines (drawn perpendicular to the plane) from a Stub nib that you see with a Pilot Parallel pen.

 

A crisp 1.1mm Italic nib with sharp corners will leave "vertical" lines that are the same width as the physical width of the nib — given sufficient ink flow, and the absence of feathering or spreading of the ink on the page after the lines have been laid down. If you round off its corners to make a Stub nib out of it, then the "vertical" lines will not be as precise or uniform in width, and also not as wide.

 

In other words, I would not have expected the 0.6mm pen to write a line as wide as the 0.8.

It depends on how rounded the corners are on the nibs, and also on ink flow.

 

Writing samples from my first Nemosine 0.6mm and 0.8mm Stub nibs (as they were supplied on my Fission pens and already paired with feeds) are here:

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/348647-nemosine-is-going-away-clearance-on-all-their-stuff/?p=4243105

 

I removed the nibs from the pens and feeds, took the feed that was supporting the 0.6mm Stub nib and paired it with the 0.8mm Stub nib when I transplanted them into a Nemosine Singularity pen I have, and now it puts down significantly broader lines with a different ink. I'm not keen enough to do a round of testing to find out whether the remaining feed now causes the 0.6mm to write with much narrower lines in that ink.

 

With the Pilot Parallel pens, the line width is pretty much exactly as wide as the nib.

Given sufficient ink flow and no feathering and spreading, sure.

 

As such, I expected a wider line with the 1.1mm stub.

As Stub nibs are more "forgiving", it's (at least initially) harder to be consciously aware when the pen and nib is rotated slightly off the intended orientation from moment to moment, especially when writing multiple joined letters in a single pen stroke (and not just what is "visually cursive" but each letter is still drawn separately).

 

Your comments are both enlightening and educational. I really appreciate your taking the time to put them down.

You're very welcome. Please keep in mind that this is "the Internet", and (especially as a faceless stranger to you) I could be talking out of my exhaust vent.

 

I really did not know what to expect with the stub nib. I expected more of a behavior similar to the Parallel pens; nope, but maybe almost.

There are plenty of writing samples from various Stub-nibbed pens in this very long thread here:

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/238274-stub-o-the-day/

 

I will try to find someone local to evaluate how I write with the stub and then see how they write with a stub.

Good idea!

[txomsy]

I would start

 

1) with operina.com

 

2) with the larger size stub I had

 

It is better to start with a stub than an italic even if line variation is less, because it glides softer on paper. You may later move on to scratchy italics when you have some practice. Remove as much frustration at the beginning as you can.

 

The larger the size, the easier it will be to spot mistakes, critizice your own writing, make corrections and speed up learning.

 

The italic script is the basis for all other more modern scripts. In Operina.com you'll find the original one (which looks as if written with a stub only due to technical issues with engraving at the time) as well as several modernized and simplified variants. It is not difficult, and once you grapple the basics with it, almost all other scripts begin to be "natural".

Edited September 20, 2019 by txomsy

[Karmachanic]

For myself I hold the Jowo 1.1 square to the page and write cursively. Are you rotating the pen perhaps?

[pitonyak]

For myself I hold the Jowo 1.1 square to the page and write cursively. Are you rotating the pen perhaps?

 

At this point I am pretty sure that I am rotating the pen while I am writing.

[pitonyak]

I would start

 

1) with operina.com

 

2) with the larger size stub I had

 

 

 

OK, now that is a great link.... I will spend some time there.

[dms525]

In reality, there is a stub-cursive italic-formal italic continuum of crispness and thick/thin line difference. Some nibs called stubs are quite crisp. Some makes are not crisp in their 1.1mm nib but much crisper in their broader nibs.

 

The less crisp stubs are suitable for American-style cursive scripts. The crisper nibs are really most suitable for scripts traditionally written with a chisel-tipped nib such as italic, gothic variants, uncial, etc.

 

In my opinion, if you want to learn traditional scripts, italic is a good place to start. Looking at the work of the Renaissance writing masters is very helpful, but what is best is being able to actually see the scripts being written. The series of 20 half hour videos made by Lloyd Reynolds in 1978 is available on youtube and is a wonderful resource.

 

BTW, "font" is a term properly used for a digital type style for use in computer programs. "Script" is the proper term for a handwriting style.

 

The handwriting forum on FPN has lots of helpful topic. Suggest you hop over there and have a look around.

 

Happy writing!

 

David

[dms525]

One other suggestion: If you are able to attend a pen show, many of them now offer classes in various handwriting styles including italic and American cursive. Having a live teacher who can answer your questions, watch you write and make suggestions in real time, etc. is the very best way to learn. (Followed by reflective practice.)

 

David

[pitonyak]

I had a much more experienced person try both pens. He did some work on the #6 stub because he said it needed some work and didn't work nearly as well as a number 5 stub.

 

might be better not sure, so I will try flushing the pain and trying the different ink and if that doesn't help I will just simply pull the nib and use a different one. I also have three other pens with that same nib, so I will ain't those up and give those a try as well see if they behave the same. It might be that that particular nap is just always bad with that particular pen I don't know.

 

if I concentrate really hard I can make it work, but I don't think I'm willing to go to that much effort when the number 5 nib works just fine all the time.

[Honeybadgers]

I print. I can't write in cursive for (bleep) with a stub bigger than about 0.8mm.

 

And I also just can't write in general with stubs. I need them to be at least a cursive italic.

 

Every time I find myself splurging on a fancy stub, I wind up feeling disappointed (the taccia pinnacle with a sailor MS nib is a huge disappointment and I wish I had gotten an EF, that pen will probably never be used much with the music nib, and the platinum 3776 Music nib is also a pretty paperweight) with the sole exception of a vintage semiflex pelikan 400NN 14k semiflex cursive italic BB. THAT nib is glorious.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Honeybadgers

[Karmachanic]

BTW, "font" is a term properly used for a digital type style for use in computer programs. "Script" is the proper term for a handwriting style.

 

 

For clarity. Font refers to a particular size or style of a given typeface; a term initially used in typesetting. For example, Garamond being the typeface, and 12 point italic being the font.

[BaronWulfraed]

BTW, "font" is a term properly used for a digital type style for use in computer programs. "Script" is the proper term for a handwriting style.

 

"Font" is not specific to digital... It is a specific instance of a "typeface" and could apply to digital imaging or traditional cast lead.

 

A typeface:

Bookman Old Style

 

Fonts:

Bookman Old Style 16pt Bold

Bookman Old Style 12pt Bold

Bookman Old Style 12pt Italic

etc.

 

 

 

{and, of course, someone else beat me to it}

Edited September 21, 2019 by BaronWulfraed

[dms525]

 

For clarity. Font refers to a particular size or style of a given typeface; a term initially used in typesetting. For example, Garamond being the typeface, and 12 point italic being the font.

 

I stand corrected.

 

David

[mana]

...nada, nothing, zilch, zero... nothing to see here

Edited September 21, 2019 by mana

[ac12]

A follow up to David.

The Lamy Italic nibs are not "crisp italic" nibs. The corners are slightly rounded, so to me they are more cursive italic.

And I have used them to write cursive, quite easily.

 

ALL of the edge nibs have to be kept flat. If you roll the pen, you will lift the slit off the paper, and ink flow will stop.

So you NEED to practice writing by moving your hand over the paper left to right, and NOT rolling your hand as you write.