Quick Comparison: Pilot 823 #15 Fa Vs 742 #10 Fa Vs Falcon Sf

[loganrah]

Apropos some recent posts I thought people here might be interested in the following comparison shots of the flex performance of the three pilot flex(ish) nibs: #15 FA, #10 FA and Falcon SF.

A couple of notes:

 

1. The #10 FA arrived this morning so it hasn't had any break in time. I'm not sure if that makes a difference or not, but it should be noted. The other two pens have about 6 months each of breaking in, at maybe a page or two a day.

 

2. The 823 has a replacement ebonite feed from flex nib factory in it, which significantly increases ink flow. This is great for avoiding railroading (I can't make it railroad no matter how I try), but it does mean that the finest lines are quite wet, a drier ink might emphasise the variation a little better if you are trying to maximise it.

 

This first photo is using the maximum pressure I'm comfortable using. You could probably push all these nibs a bit further, but I don't see the need to take the risk for a few more .01s of a mm.

 

This next photo is with minimal pressure and reasonable pressure. Minimal pressure means writing as lightly as I can (I couldn't write this lightly for a long time since it takes concentration to do so). Reasonable pressure means reasonable for writing, this is the sort of level of pressure I could easily write many pages with. Whereas the pressure above would tire my hand too quickly for normal writing.

Overall impression: the #10 and #15 are very similar in max line width, but the #10 is clearly easier to flex, requiring noticeably less pressure to get to its max point. It is a little scratchier than the #15, but that might just be this particular nib. The falcon, by contrast, doesn't give very good line variation without significant pressure, though I find it a bit more flexy than some other people who describe it as merely soft do (the extra stiffness is actually good for use as a companion pen, since it is easier to take fast notes or write on non flat surfaces when required, while still allowing some flex when needed).

Now a couple of photos of the pens themselves and a couple of quick thoughts about them as pens rather than thinking about the nibs specifically.

Thoughts: The size in the hand of the 823 and 742 is pretty much the same, but the 823 is noticeably heavier. I prefer this, it feels more substantial without being tiring, but this is personal preference. The plastic feels a bit better to me as well in the 823, but that could be an effect of the weight as well.
The falcon is a lacquered metal model. It has a similar weight to the 823 and I really like how easy it is to unscrew the cap (though this might be a problem if you kept it in a pocket instead of a pen case). I also like keeping the falcon with me since it is much more understated. The 823 and 742 are a bit blingy for some situations, drawing more attention than I might like in a meeting with students for example. Most people don't even notice the falcon is a fountain pen unless they are paying a lot of attention, whereas the 823 draws obvious glances sometimes.

[JulieParadise]

Thank you for the very informative comparison.

 

I traded my 743 FA for a third 912 FA recently. Now I own a 912 that was factory new and two I bought or got as pre-owned/(ab)used pens that had mangled or even deformed nibs.

 

What I can say is: With a little patience and taking a deep breath to dare ;-) it is fairly easy to adjust the tines of these very soft nibs to make them working again solely with your fingers and good eyes. Since you can just pull out nib and feed everything is accessible. Nib and feed should be cleaned from hand/finger oils afterwards, that's all.

 

All my 3 FA nibs write perfectly at normal speed, deliver some flex and without skipping, hard starting or railroading although I use them with the plastic feed they came with.

 

What I do see when other people try them is that they seem to be very sensible to turning the pen while writing and require a very light hand and sensible pressure to flex them. Otherwise these are fantastic pens/nibs, easy to maintain and clean.

[loganrah]

What I can say is: With a little patience and taking a deep breath to dare ;-) it is fairly easy to adjust the tines of these very soft nibs to make them working again solely with your fingers and good eyes. Since you can just pull out nib and feed everything is accessible. Nib and feed should be cleaned from hand/finger oils afterwards, that's all.

 

That's good to know if I stuff mine up. I'd be a little worried about buying a mangled second hand nib in case it had been sprung in a permanent way. But I guess if you can pick them up really cheap it would be could be worth trying.

 

 

 

All my 3 FA nibs write perfectly at normal speed, deliver some flex and without skipping, hard starting or railroading although I use them with the plastic feed they came with.

 

What I do see when other people try them is that they seem to be very sensible to turning the pen while writing and require a very light hand and sensible pressure to flex them. Otherwise these are fantastic pens/nibs, easy to maintain and clean.

The railroad I'm getting is mostly with max flexing and quite a lot of writing, I haven't noticed any in normal use (although I've only written about 10 pages today, so we'll see in future). I've already ordered a replacement ebonite feed though, since I was so happy with the upgrade in my 823.

 

Flexible nibs are definitely more sensitive to rotation, and it gets more sensitive the more flexible they are. This makes sense since the tines become misaligned when they flex and are rotated at the same time. Keeping the pen parallel with the downstrokes also helps a lot, which isn't easy if you are trying to write a slanted italic style (hence oblique nib holders for dip pens).

 

I should say that the #10 FA is only scratchy when pressure is applied, if I let the pen really float across the page there is feedback but it is quite smooth. Its nothing like how scratchy a dip pen like a Zebra G though.

 

 

[JulieParadise]

Well, if the nib is permanently sprung that is maybe beyond repair.

 

But I got mine because the owners didn't like them, they felt scratchy, flow was bad and the tines were badly misaligned and/or bent. And I had the opportunity to repair/adjust them first, before having to decide whether I wanted to keep them. (In fact, I first only offered to have a look and repair one of them but it turned out the owner was one of those people who do not get along with the softness of the nib at all; just not the right pen for him so I gladly gave it a new home.)

 

Since the tip of the nibs consists of two almost equal (flattish) half-balls I found it easy to bend them back together as parallel halves, then make sure the nib slit is parallel also and then reunite nib and feed and squeeze until ink flow and feel on paper was perfect. It might be a very small but easy to grip area and to adjust that was easier than other nibs, as you have something to work with and almost have a feeling of "What You See Is What You Get".

[Billingsgate]

Thanks for this post. An FA nib was next on my to-buy list. You've done a great job in confirming what seems to be the consensus elsewhere: that the #10 FA is more flexible than the #15. Since I plan to use it for both writing and sketching, the #10 is preferable. Though I'll opt for a Custom 912 since, as the OP pointed out, the 742 is slightly too flashy for the job (drawing in public).

 

I already have a Metal Falcon SF--in fact, it was the first pen I bought when I renewed my interest in fountain pens, and remains my favorite EDC pen. It's okay for drawing, but again, as pointed out, it requires a little too much pressure for adequate line variation, so I use it almost entirely for writing--the line has much more character than a standard pen nib.

[Christopher Godfrey]

I cannot see any difference in the writing samples you provide between the #10 and the #15 FAs, Logan! My apologies, because you have obviously tried hard to show it -- although I have never even laid eyes on a #10 (to the best of my knowledge), I wrote to you elsewhere that I cannot imagine a healthier flex than I have in my #15. As for "scratchiness", that is entirely your business, mate: you need to smooth that nib -- there need be <no> scratchiness whatsoever, if you simply spend a few minutes smoothing it out. Here in The States, Richard Binder is our local guru and his notes (available online at his website, www.Richardspens.com) are all you need to read.

 

You must be very self-conscious about writing if you think these pens show "bling"? I have used fountain pens all my life and some of my pens are quite beautiful; but shy of using them in public? Of course not! Proud, rather...

 

Apologies again: I do not mean to berate you!

Edited September 10, 2019 by Christopher Godfrey

[loganrah]

I cannot see any difference in the writing samples you provide between the #10 and the #15 FAs

 

Hopefully the difference is easier to see in this shot, although my phone isn't fantastic for maco shots. The numbers were written with more pressure than I would normally use, but not max pressure. Whereas the cross hatching is done with max, safe, pressure on the down strokes. The #10 produces noticeably greater flex with less pressure, but not that much greater total line width. Using a ruler marked to .5mm I'd estimate that the #15 gives 1.25mm max while the #10 gives 1.5mm max.

 

 

 

As for "scratchiness", that is entirely your business, mate: you need to smooth that nib -- there need be <no> scratchiness whatsoever, if you simply spend a few minutes smoothing it out. Here in The States, Richard Binder is our local guru and his notes (available online at his website, www.Richardspens.com) are all you need to read.

 

I believe the scratchiness here is an effect of the flex rather than a nib that needs smoothing. All three nibs are quite smooth when used at the lightest pressure. The #10 FA is just a bit more noticeably scratchy in normal writing; my hypothesis is that this is actually because it flexes so easily. Unless I'm paying careful attention the pen flexes a bit even on sideways strokes and that causes it to scratch somewhat.

 

You must be very self-conscious about writing if you think these pens show "bling"? I have used fountain pens all my life and some of my pens are quite beautiful; but shy of using them in public? Of course not! Proud, rather...

 

I think this is mostly a matter of personal style, but it also depends where you are using your pens. In my work people do not expect me to have a lot of money, and display of wealth is not considered appropriate, so having a pen which most people will assume is rather expensive (and they are right, just not expensive to us crazy collectors) is not something that I necessarily want to draw attention to.

[JulieParadise]

I do not think it is possible to show the difference between those nibs as it is more the feeling of softness that differs. The result may be the same but the writing pleasure, at least for me, is a lot more pronounced with the smaller #10 nibs.

[DonM]

I've been following, and this has been a very valuable thread. Thanks to everyone for the great comparisons, both visual and subjective.

[loganrah]

I do not think it is possible to show the difference between those nibs as it is more the feeling of softness that differs. The result may be the same but the writing pleasure, at least for me, is a lot more pronounced with the smaller #10 nibs.

The more I am writing with the #10 FA the more I am seeing how important this feeling is. I think I prefer the feeling of the #15 though. The #10 is actually perhaps too soft for me, the slight resistance that the #15 gives all the way through the stroke leads to it feeling more flowing, and less like I'm going to spring it at any moment. The #15 feels like I'd have to really press down to damage it, whereas the #10 feels like if I just kept going it would just keep bending.

[Vintage_BE]

I’m reviving this thread just to add my two cents to the discussion on Pilot’s #15 FA nib.  Needless to say (and especially in discussions about flex), YMMV. And perhaps considerably so.